LORDSHIP SALVATION

[Stephen63]

I will say I don't think much anymore of Johnny Mac after His "strange fire" series thats totally against Pentecostals & charismatics. But I will say this about him..... in spite of the former sentence, he has more good doctrine in his little finger than all of his naysayers combined. I applaud him for his Lordship salvation, he nailed it. Imagine all those who say Jesus is Lord & don't do anything He says.

Luke 6:46 (NASB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:46 (TEV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and yet don't do what I tell you?
Luke 6:46 (NLT)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]“So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say?

 

[Stephen63]

Here is what John MacArthur teaches...contrary to some of the things being posted here. MacArthur really has his own version of what salvation is.


The main problem with MacArthur's presentation can be summed up like this:

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

I don't have a problem with that.....

Matthew 3:7-8 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Matthew 3:7-8 (TEV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When John saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to him to be baptized, he said to them, "You snakes—who told you that you could escape from the punishment God is about to send? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Do those things that will show that you have turned from your sins.

Matthew 3:7-8 (NLT)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to watch him baptize, he denounced them. “You brood of snakes!” he exclaimed. “Who warned you to flee God’s coming wrath? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Repentance comes before believing unto salvation, & John said it under the old covenant. If they could bring forth fruits unto repentance under the old covenant, then they certainly could under the New Covenant.

 

[P1LGR1M]

FOUL!! AD HOMINEMS

Shall I cry hypocrisy?

Pilgrim, you are reminding me of a cult follower whose leader can say or do no wrong.

But that's okay, the truth hurts, right? So we shall see who is a cult follower, and who is properly representing the Word of God.

Therefore, seeing not one person seems to have the courage to back up their charges and actually quote MacArthur's position, but are content to cast aspersion on someone with no basis, then I will begin to quote MacArthur in my responses to those decrying Lordship Salvation, and we will see that we have a contrast between the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in Scripture...and greasy grace.

Here is the first installment:


Comparing the No-Lordship Views

The 9 specific tenets of lordship salvation have already been outlined in a previous post .
So what does the no-lordship camp espouse? They agree with lordship proponents that: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
But they disagree on other crucial soteriological points. For example, the no-lordship advocates teach that:

1. Repentance is simply a change of mind about Christ (Charles Ryrie, So Great Salvation, 96, 99).?? In the context of the gospel invitation, repentance is just a synonym for faith (SGS 97-99). No turning from sin is required for salvation (SGS 99).
​

Link


These are the points Lordship Salvation and No-Lordship Salvation adherents agree on, with the first point where there is disagreement. Lordship Salvation was not, by the way, a term coined by MacArthur, though he is probably the most famous defender of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in regards to a staunch address of the No-Lordship proponents, and in point one we see that Charles Ryrie is quoted from his book So Great Salvation.

What we will find with the greasy grace crowd is a denying of the very Sovereignty of God, because they view something that is promised in salvation...does not take place And that is of course Progressive or Practical Sanctification.

Their confusion lies, as has been pointed out already in this thread, in trying to make Lordship Salvation the means of salvation, when MacArthur makes it clear in every teaching he has ever done...that salvation is wholly the Work of Holy God. That is seen in the first paragraph.

We also see it here:


The lordship controversy is not a dispute about whether salvation is by faith only or by faith plus works.

No true Christian would ever suggest that works need to be added to faith in order to secure salvation. No one who properly interprets Scripture would ever propose that human effort or fleshly works can be meritorious —worthy of honor or reward from God.? (We emphasize this again just to make the point.)

Instead, the lordship controversy is a disagreement over the nature of true faith. Those who have true faith will love Christ (Romans 8:28; 1 Corinthians 16:22; 1 John 4:19). They will therefore want to do His bidding. Jesus as Lord is far more than just an authority figure; He's also our highest treasure and most precious companion. We obey Him out of sheer delight. So the gospel demands surrender, not only for authority's sake, but also because surrender is the believer's highest joy. Such surrender is not an extraneous adjunct to faith; it is the very essence of believing.


Link


What we are going to find in this discussion are some very interesting truths about the No-Lordship crowd.

They attack Christianity on some very fundamental levels, one member here at least making the statement "The Gospel is not about sin," and...we find people who should have discernment of such error patting that member on the back.

Likely the error is not intentional, but, we see the problem when people build Theology on...emotion. For them, Scripture does not matter, only what they feel matters. And if someone feels that sin is displaced from the Gospel, well, for them...that is their truth.

But that is not the Truth of God's Word.

Christ came to save sinners, and call them to repentance. We can see that the Comforter does not exclude sin from His Ministry:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;



The Gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with sin?

And this is so basic to the Gospel, so we have to beware of false teachers who remove the Bad News from the Good News. Man will not be saved but that the Comforter enlighten their natural minds to their sin. This is the supernatural Work of the Spirit of God, and it is understanding our condition that compels us to repent and trust Christ.


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Several times the false charge that MacArthur's teaching places works prior to salvation, and that is a false charge. In view is not how one is saved, but what happens after one is saved. A denial that there will be repentance before salvation conflicts with so many teachings of Christ and the Apostles that we wonder how anyone could miss that.

But it has been exposed why some would levy false charges against a man that has been one of the most staunch defenders of Sola Fide...anger at his other teachings.

So in conclusion on this point...

FOUL!! AD HOMINEMS

...I will just say that it is not ad hominem if it is true. We do nobody any favors by patting them on the back for conduct and behavior unbefitting of Christians, and for spreading false information because one has a vendetta based on doctrine which MacArthur has addressed.

Pilgrim, you are reminding me of a cult follower whose leader can say or do no wrong.

That's okay, Christianity was called a cult at it's beginning, and it's members persecuted for standing on the truth.

And I can confidently say that when this issue is threshed out to it's fullest, rather than the gossip oriented manner it has been approached with so far, we are going to see who defends the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God, and who is teaching another gospel, which is not good news at all.

Any time anyone is falsely accused, you are going to get my attention.

And aren't you glad you have it?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

While this topic seems to be new here, I have seen it hotly debated elsewhere which is where I actually learned about it

These sources name the book, page etc...now you can't do that if you are making things up...it's far too easy to refute lies like that...I am surpised that folks here seem to be vague on the concept as this is actually a teaching that is still hotly debated

Dr. MacArthur’s teaching on the one nature of the believer is related to his teaching on Lordship. If the believer really only has one nature, the new nature in Christ [as MacArthur teaches in The MacArthur N.T. Commentary--Ephesians, p. 164], then we would expect such a person to be totally surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. In the words of Dr. MacArthur: "Listen! No one who is saved will fail to repent, will fail to submit or fail to obey...True faith results in an absolutely and totally transformed life" (Tape GC 90-21 on Lordship). Would we not expect this from a person who does not have an old nature?
Dr. MacArthur’s position on Lordship Salvation has been made very clear in his published book, THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. He has also made statements in some of his other published writings and tapes that relate to this subject, some of which are quoted below:
"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).
"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).


John MacArthur's Position on Lordship Salvation

This is simply propaganda.

This member has been asked several times, as well as the other proponents of No-Lordship Salvation, to quote MacArthur directly.

But as is true with all propaganda, those promoting an agenda seldom quote people they attack. They wrest what they say, and take things out of context.

The above quote seeks to make MacArthur's teaching a matter of works-based salvation, yet, when we look at direct statements of clarification so that people cannot be confused...


The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

LINK

Now I ask any No-Lordship Salvationist to show MacArthur teaching works-based salvation here.

The confusion lies in the No-Lordship Camp, who preach a gospel quite unlike that found in the Bible. They run the risk of providing a false assurance to those who have not been brought under conviction of sin through the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, but are engaged in Churchianity.

We have Scripture in abundance that teaches those who practice lifestyles indicative of an unrepentant heart...do not belong to God. Here is one already provided in this thread, and to my knowledge it has been ignored (and I will expand the passage):


1 John 3:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


The Word of God speaks for itself, and it is in contrast to the No-Lordship Camp.

Here is an example of the propaganda:

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

Here is what John actually teaches:


Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.

LINK


And isn't this true? Do we not see our Arminius based (so-called) teaching that salvation can be lost?

But here is direct teaching taken from MacArthur's own site on the very issue, yet the false statement...

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

Is received by the undiscerning among us.

They do not realize the damage they do to Core Doctrines, but, we are going to get to those before we are through.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It seems to me that if someone is copy/pasting from MacArthur' site, the results will be a very whitewashed version

A critique is actually what is needed ... one can buy his book I guess, but scholars have rebutted his teachings many times over

Here we see a tactic of proponents of propaganda...don't look at the actual source.

Not sure how it could be thought that actually quoting John MacArthur's teaching on Lordship Salvation would not be a good idea.

Whitewashed? Isn't his teaching what is being disparaged?

But, what hasn't been considered by the No-Lordship Camp is that they are No-Lordship adherents and proponents.

They echo MacArthur and say "You don't make Christ Lord...He is Lord," lol, but, how can they possibly be seen as genuine in their echo of MacArthur's own teaching when they teach that the Gospel has nothing to do with sin, nothing to do with repentance, and let's see a result of such unbiblical thinking as it translates through No-Lordship teachers...

Now salvation is not a process...Christ has already completed the process and we accept what He has done on our behalf and that is what makes us righteous in the Father's eyes. What occurs after salvation, is called sanctification. We do not instantly become 100% followers of Christ any more than the disciples did.

Salvation is a gift that we water and we grow...we are not suddenly aware of all that God wants to do in us...YET...MacArthur seems to think we must have complete knowledge of what we shall become in order to become.

That's not even possible

Not only does this bear false witness about what MacArthur teaches...it is a works-based mentality.

Salvation is not a process?

Salvation is a "gift that we water?"

It is "a gift that...we grow?"

That is heresy.

That is a complete confusion about Salvation in Christ.

And those of you condoning this doctrine...you are denying Biblical Doctrine.

This is a clear statement of man's participation in salvation. And it contradicts itself.

You No-Lordship Salvationist...please give me a passage showing that we water and grow salvation.

And I will give you the truth of Who is the Source of Salvation:


1 Corinthians 3

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.


So laud your No-Lordship teachers, and I will laud those with a firm grasp on Scripture, salvation, and the Lordship Salvation Controversy.

What we will see in the Lordship/No-Lordship Controversy is that the Sovereignty of God is under fire. Hollow claims of defending the Gospel of Christ are exposed as wresting of Scripture.

MacArthur makes a clear distinction between Progressive and Positional Sanctification, and what you No-Lordship adherents might be missing is that God is Sovereign in regards to sanctification, and while believers do play an active role after they are saved, this removes God from the equation, which is unbiblical...because it is God that finishes, completes...our salvation. He is our Father, He has not left us to fend for ourselves.


God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't have a problem with that.....

Matthew 3:7-8 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Matthew 3:7-8 (TEV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When John saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to him to be baptized, he said to them, "You snakes—who told you that you could escape from the punishment God is about to send? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Do those things that will show that you have turned from your sins.

Matthew 3:7-8 (NLT)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to watch him baptize, he denounced them. “You brood of snakes!” he exclaimed. “Who warned you to flee God’s coming wrath? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Repentance comes before believing unto salvation, & John said it under the old covenant. If they could bring forth fruits unto repentance under the old covenant, then they certainly could under the New Covenant.

You have a few major flaws with this line of thinking.

1. One must be saved BEFORE one is baptized. So All John the Baptist did is demand these peope who were anti God were saved BEFORE he would baptize them. Nothing wrong wiht this at all.
2. John never said they could work to earn salvation. And no one was ever saved by works of the law. We are saved today the same way they were in Johns day when he made these demands.


3. and most damaging, Your demanding people EARN the right to be saved.. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

why do people want to spit on the cross?? SMH

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yikes ember, I didn't know that at all and will have to read up on it. But did want to refresh my memory about John MacGarther and give a more updated opinion to Pilgrim about why I'm not a big John M. fan. Listened to 2 messages this morning on youtube before leaving for work. I was again reminded why I stopped listening to him some years ago Pilgrim. What I hear from him is a heaviness of duty and difficulty. One of the messages was about how believers should make sure they are not the ones that Jesus will say " I never knew you" JM stressed how awful it will be for someone who believes they are a Christian and to finally see Jesus only to have Him say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Looking at 'self' leads to a downward spiral. Looking to Jesus lifts us up. The major change that took place in my Christian life was when I finally was able to rest in the Giver. Have faith in the finished work of the Giver. AND for me to stop trying to BE the giver. I could not learn to be a giver until I learned how to take from Him.

To learn to follow and trust and believe Jesus when He promises to never leave or forsake me. Faith in Him and His love not faith in my faith and my love. Can't have a close trusting relationship if we are always looking at how faithful we are and not how faithful He is.

What kind of hope is that? It is almost like he teaches our foundation is in self not in Christ.

He does not even get the context of the passage, Does John M Have a major problem with legalism in his church, people depending n their works?? That is the context of the passage, not licentiousness. So he did not even take the proper context to spread fear.

I am so glad I left churches like this.. No life in those churches..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong again....lol "the biggest problem wit the church is it will not just let God's word speak for itself"


We need a revelation. That’s why the New Testament doesn’t talk about revival. Instead, it often reminds us of what we already have in Christ. Paul didn’t pray for revival in the church. He asked for revelation:

"I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him (Ephesians 1:15-17).


"

well I think the two go hand in hand.. But yes, thanks..

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Seriously?

lol

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

By the word of God

Not by the Word of God you don't.

Here is the statement that you made which prompted my question:

Taken from Grace Community Church Website:

The Character of Saving Faith
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Here is where we get iffy

Why did he even have to add this, All this can do is confuse poeple. How good is good enough? How much obedience needs to be obeyed to be of pure faith and true repentance.

No wonder people jumped on him.. It is like he is saying, we are saved by faith, But then we are under law.

Can a person even know he is saved? By this there would be no way.. For what happens if one falls away and becomes a prodigal son? Is he still saved, or did he forfiet his lordship?

You imposing of man's participation in salvation denies the Sovereignty of God in salvation.

You erroneously attribute works to what Scripture states will take place:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Understand that the Arminian view of "Free Will" as it is taught by most today is error. There is nothing within a man that can understand his condition apart from divine intervention. Unbeknownst to you, you are the one confusing Biblical Doctrine, and making Repentance a work. You are denying what is said...

Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

...and what you are denying is the very Word of God.

Repentance is a Work of God, created in the natural man...by God.

And men are called to repent, this is just a Bible Basic:


Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Christ came to call men to repentance:


Luke 13

King James Version (KJV)

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


The problem with basing Theology off of emotion is that fundamental errors like this not only creep into the Body of Christ, they become for some...foundational Doctrines vehemently defended.

As I have said several times in this thread already, you, and your No-Lordship fellows...do not even understand which side of salvation Lordship Salvation addresses.

Even though MacArthur makes it clear that salvation is not associated with works we do...



The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths:

(1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation;

(2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone;

(3) sinners cannot earn divine favor;

(4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation;

(5) eternal life is a gift of God;

(6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and

(7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.


...still, in an attempt to justify your No-Lo0rdship Doctrine, you continue to bear false witness. You have been shown that it is not the means of salvation that is in view, but the genuine nature of the "salvation" of those, who like you, deny that salvation will evidence any works. Any Fruit.

Now you have been given direct quotes of MacArthur's teachings four times, yet you still make disparaging remarks about him and his teaching.

This is wrong.

You are teaching something that cannot be supported by Scripture, and the Scripture stands as a testimony against you and your No-Lordship fellows, be they male or female.

Here is the reason why those who will go into eternal punishment...go into eternal punishment:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Romans 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


The No-Lordship Doctrine is the doctrine of demons that denies the Sovereignty of God. It teaches contrary to the demand of God to come into obedience to the Faith of Jesus Christ.

No man can accomplish that himself, he is dependent on the revelation God provides when He ministers to the unbelieving world, and the response of men is simply a Bible Basic that No-Lordship Doctrine seeks to remove from the very Gospel.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

How can we know using what John stated is required, anyone is saved? What is the cut off??

That's the point you are missing, in your attempt to justify yourself.

You contradict yourself and actually have to present Lordship Salvation terminology:

Do you disagree with that?

I disagree with the one who says someone can have true savng faith and never want to obey the one he says he has faith in

Pity you don't actually believe what you say.

This is Lordship Salvation understanding: those who say they are saved yet not only lack evidence of salvation, but also evidence they are the children of the devil...are not likely saved.

The bible does not say repent of sin and change your life then you will be saved, It says repent and let me save you, then I WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.. (do you trust me?)

MacArthur doesn't say that either.

That is the propaganda of those who have a beef with MacArthur because he also teaches of errors many are engaged in.

Here is a little advice for everyone: if the denomination or group you are associated with cannot be openly declared, you might want to question your being a part of that group.

Here is a little more advice: for those of you who do not know you are a part of the No-Lordship Movement, which is not a new movement, now is the time to wake up and start learning what Scripture teaches about the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

And there are few teachers available to help you do that than John MacArthur.


Continued...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not by the Word of God you don't.

Here is the statement that you made which prompted my question:




You imposing of man's participation in salvation denies the Sovereignty of God in salvation.

You erroneously attribute works to what Scripture states will take place:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Understand that the Arminian view of "Free Will" as it is taught by most today is error. There is nothing within a man that can understand his condition apart from divine intervention. Unbeknownst to you, you are the one confusing Biblical Doctrine, and making Repentance a work. You are denying what is said...





...and what you are denying is the very Word of God.

Repentance is a Work of God, created in the natural man...by God.

And men are called to repent, this is just a Bible Basic:


Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Christ came to call men to repentance:


Luke 13

King James Version (KJV)

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


The problem with basing Theology off of emotion is that fundamental errors like this not only creep into the Body of Christ, they become for some...foundational Doctrines vehemently defended.

As I have said several times in this thread already, you, and your No-Lordship fellows...do not even understand which side of salvation Lordship Salvation addresses.

Even though MacArthur makes it clear that salvation is not associated with works we do...



The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths:

(1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation;

(2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone;

(3) sinners cannot earn divine favor;

(4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation;

(5) eternal life is a gift of God;

(6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and

(7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.


...still, in an attempt to justify your No-Lo0rdship Doctrine, you continue to bear false witness. You have been shown that it is not the means of salvation that is in view, but the genuine nature of the "salvation" of those, who like you, deny that salvation will evidence any works. Any Fruit.

Now you have been given direct quotes of MacArthur's teachings four times, yet you still make disparaging remarks about him and his teaching.

This is wrong.

You are teaching something that cannot be supported by Scripture, and the Scripture stands as a testimony against you and your No-Lordship fellows, be they male or female.

Here is the reason why those who will go into eternal punishment...go into eternal punishment:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Romans 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


The No-Lordship Doctrine is the doctrine of demons that denies the Sovereignty of God. It teaches contrary to the demand of God to come into obedience to the Faith of Jesus Christ.

No man can accomplish that himself, he is dependent on the revelation God provides when He ministers to the unbelieving world, and the response of men is simply a Bible Basic that No-Lordship Doctrine seeks to remove from the very Gospel.


Continued...

[/COLOR]

That is not what he said, Your twisting his words.

He said one can ot be saved by faith alone, but they have to repent of sin, and change first..

That is works..

Yes arminianism is a lie. But that does not mean we have to lie in order to prove arminianism wrong..

Thats the problem. We keep making stuff up to prove other people wrong. Why do we not just stick with the word??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's the point you are missing, in your attempt to justify yourself.

You contradict yourself and actually have to present Lordship Salvation terminology:

You will never hear me present lordship terminology. You may here me quote romans 10 But thats about all you will hear.

I am not justifying myself. I can;t. God has to justify me, and change me, and grow me, and sanctify me after he already perfected me.

Lordship salvation does not teach this..

Pity you don't actually believe what you say.

This is Lordship Salvation understanding: those who say they are saved yet not only lack evidence of salvation, but also evidence they are the children of the devil...are not likely saved.

Thats not what I just read. and not what it appears JM teaches.. You need to study him more

MacArthur doesn't say that either.

That is the propaganda of those who have a beef with MacArthur because he also teaches of errors many are engaged in.

Here is a little advice for everyone: if the denomination or group you are associated with cannot be openly declared, you might want to question your being a part of that group.

Here is a little more advice: for those of you who do not know you are a part of the No-Lordship Movement, which is not a new movement, now is the time to wake up and start learning what Scripture teaches about the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

And there are few teachers available to help you do that than John MacArthur.


Continued...

From JM's website. ie, his words.

Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3).

Sorry, A person who is not born of Gd has no power to do those things. ONLY GOD CAN CHANGE A PERSON. He can not change a person UNTIL HE FIRST ENTERS HIM and becomes ONE WITH HIM..

 

[P1LGR1M]

The Character of Saving Faith
Truefaith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.

Wrong.. That is not true at all. Thats adding works to the cross.

No, it's not wrong, it is a fundamental Bible Doctrine:


Acts 8:18-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Repentance is the very thing God creates through the Ministry of the Comforter.

And God is Sovereign because it is God that initiates Salvation...not men:


Acts 11:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Acts 5:30-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



Acts 20:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

[SUP]21[/SUP]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, let's look at your teaching again:

The Character of Saving Faith
Truefaith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.

Wrong.. That is not true at all. Thats adding works to the cross.

No, it is not adding works into salvation, it is simply clarifying a Basic Bible Doctrine you have been persuaded does not apply to Salvation in Christ, and it is not only a degradation of the Sovereignty of God, it attacks the Promises of God on such a fundamental level that we wonder how anyone can publicly make statements like this...and expect it to be received as Biblical Doctrine.

Now, you tell me again how true faith is not accompanied by repentance from sin?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Why do we not just stick with the word??

I am showing you why you don't stick to the Word.

Pay attention.


God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am showing you why you don't stick to the Word.

Pay attention.


God bless.

No yourTRYING to show me why I do not follow some MAN.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, it's not wrong, it is a fundamental Bible Doctrine:


Acts 8:18-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Repentance is the very thing God creates through the Ministry of the Comforter.

And God is Sovereign because it is God that initiates Salvation...not men:


Acts 11:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Acts 5:30-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



Acts 20:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

[SUP]21[/SUP]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, let's look at your teaching again:


[/COLOR]


No, it is not adding works into salvation, it is simply clarifying a Basic Bible Doctrine you have been persuaded does not apply to Salvation in Christ, and it is not only a degradation of the Sovereignty of God, it attacks the Promises of God on such a fundamental level that we wonder how anyone can publicly make statements like this...and expect it to be received as Biblical Doctrine.

Now, you tell me again how true faith is not accompanied by repentance from sin?


Continued...

[/COLOR]

repentance is not admitting sin. I already proved all people know they are not only sinners, but rightly judged by that sin.

So your going to ignore scripture?

Repent means to change,, I can not change my believe from knowing I am a sinner, and knowing I am rightly judged. to a belief of knowing I am a sinner, and knowing I am rightly judged.

Now I CAN change from trying to save myself to place my faith in someone else to save me. because I finally realise I can not save myself.

But I can not repent about sin.

 

[P1LGR1M]

True faith means I trust God to keep his promise of eternal life (vs mere belief maybe he will do it, or I may believe maybe I may need saved)

Here we are going to see you trespass into another error that denies the Sovereignty of God: you are a free will adherent and you are not even aware of it.

That is not an attack, it is the truth, exposed by your own words.

True faith does rely on God's Sovereignty, but, you have denied that true faith is accompanied by repentance from sin, so while you might mix in a few statements that are true, it is your error we focus on, and see that the gospel you teach is not a Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes I do. I have no capacity to do this as a non believer.
I am still in the flesh remember,

And John MacArthur's teachings make it clear that man has no capacity to save himself, and that there are no works men can perform that earns merit that is applied to salvation.

Yet you disagree that true faith is always associated with repentance from sins.

Now here, we are going to examine the contradictory nature of your doctrine. You say...

Yes I do. I have no capacity to do this as a non believer.
I am still in the flesh remember,

Sounds very Biblical, pity it is just one of your beliefs:

No, repentance is agreeing with God that I can not save myself, Every person knows they are a sinner, thats why no one will have an excuse (see romans 1 not only do they know they are a sinner they know they are rightfully judged..

Your doctrine contradicts itself because you simply don't know what you believe. Biblical Doctrine is not the point here...vilifying anyone that disagree with what you want to believe is the point of your posting.

Here is another contradiction...

so how can you repent (change my mind) about being a sinner, and rightly judged, when I ALREADY KNOW??

So let's look at your vehement statement:

The Character of Saving Faith
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes I do. I have no capacity to do this as a non believer.
I am still in the flesh remember,

Now tell me why it is your doctrine is so contradictory, and why anyone would see your doctrine as sound?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

No yourTRYING to show me why I do not follow some MAN.

No, it has been clarified already that you reject MacArthur's teachings when you do not even know what they are.

Now, I am showing why your own doctrine contradicts itself.

I tried to have a discussion on this, and no-one bothered to respond to some very basic questions, such as where do we see MacArthur teaching works-based salvation.

Another question you have not answered is where in Scripture do we find a teaching of "Justification through Death."

Until those who have borne false witness about MacArthur and the Lordship Salvation Controversy make a public apology to MacArthur and the members here they have falsely swayed through misrepresentation, I will simply continue to draw on your own statements and point out how they are adverse to Biblical Doctrine.


God bless.

 

[Kefa54]

I was just going to post the same thing.

well I think the two go hand in hand.. But yes, thanks..

 

[P1LGR1M]

Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, Do you disagree with that?

No, repentance is agreeing with God that I can not save myself,

So you don't have to agree with God that you are sinful, and that you confess your sin to Him?


Romans 2:4

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


This is denying the Sovereignty of God: it is God that leads you to repentance.

True faith is always accompanied by repentance of sin, both before and after salvation.

No-Lordship Doctrine teaches the opposite, and makes the very Work of Sovereign God...a work of man.


2 Corinthians 7:10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


It is God that generates repentance, not something man achieves in his natural mind.

Every person knows they are a sinner,

Not according to Scripture:


1 Corinthians 2:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Romans 3:10-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Their feet are swift to shed blood:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Destruction and misery are in their ways:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the way of peace have they not known:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now. please present the Scripture that supports your doctrine:

Every person knows they are a sinner,

That is Free Will and it is a heresy that contradicts Scripture.

No natural man understands his condition, nor can he know it unless God intervenes as enlightens his mind to his condition.


Continued...