LORDSHIP SALVATION

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P1LGR1M

Guest
And what in this...


It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).


Its in error.
Here is what you are calling "in error:"


James 2:19

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Ephesians 2:10King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Now they have given Scripture to support their view, you do the same.

Show why God does not save that we might walk in good works, as opposed to the way we walked in before we were saved.


Titus 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Present the Scripture that does in fact promote licentious behavior, and condemns anyone who dares suggest that the No-Lordship Movement is heresy and unbiblical, another gospel.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
True faith does not respond in obedience,


So says the No-Lordship Camp.

That is not what Scripture teaches:


Romans 6:16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Please quote me doing that. And you will have to actually address the Scripture GTY.ORG gave to support their statement to show them doing it.

Just see the previous posts for an example of how that is done.


God created us new creature, and empowers us to be obedient,
That is Lordship Salvation teaching.

And it is very true.

God did not save us to wallow in sin, but...


Titus 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]13 [/SUP]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


And those who attack, and bear false witness against those that do speak, and exhort, and rebuke with the authority of the Word of God...need to have a reality check.


Continued...



 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
You want to take to much credit for yourself and your own power.
On the contrary, I consistently show that God is Sovereign.

I am at odds with Arminians, Calvinists (though they do at least in large part try to present God's Sovereignty), and anyone that fails to recognize that in this Age men are enlightened by the Ministry of the Comforter.

God is Sovereign, and at no time have I, or MacArthur, or MacArthur's site ever suggested anything else.

You have been shown to teach free will, and this was possible because you lack the grounding in understanding of Core issues such as God's Sovereignty, Justification by Faith, and the Grace of God.

You deny Sola Fide in your attempt to promote a false faith that lacks what Scripture teaches accompanies it. You deny that salvation is after all salvation from sin, and promote fire insurance that those who have bought into will find out too late that they had no relationship with God.

For those who are saved who have bought into it, No-Lordship Doctrine denies them the blessings associated with obedience. One of those blessings is a true Assurance of Faith that does not have to emotionally react when our faith is challenged, because we already know by the Word of God that God is Sovereign, and we can be busy about the works He has created us in Christ Jesus unto. Another would be discernment. We can all attain to that by reason of use, that is...study.


Mr MacArthur is wrong here, period.
Sorry, but you are the one in error.

MacArthur hits it on the head.


We do not RESPOND in obedience, GOD CHANGES US FROM THE INSIDE OUT and CAUSES our obedience.
If you have not responded in obedience, then there has been no change.

We are either in obedience to the Gospel when the Comforter ministers to us, or we reject that which He enlightens our minds to.

Here is a passage that deals with those who reject that enlightenment:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


This is intended to raise awareness in those who have a potential for forsaking the assembling of the brethren, because they are unbelievers associating with believers.

Several times the Writer of Hebrews warns of this. Here is another example:


Hebrews 3:12-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Those who were never made new creatures in Christ (eph 2: 9-10) by saving faith have no power to do good works,
That is Lordship Salvation.

Shame on you.

Now, does Scripture teach this or not. You state it yourself, so now you are called to answer why you reject Lordship Salvation, which teaches this very thing.


and they will not do the (although they can act like they do, by following some laws and acting all christ like).
That is why the Lord taught about tares. It is a warning against easy believism.


How can we tell the difference between a change person who is powered by God and those who change themselves in a few areas by their ow power?
James gives some good examples. Here is one to consider:


James 2:14-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


Because the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) fail to understand James is speaking in regards to the lives of believers who profess to be saved, rather than teaching the means of salvation, this passage is wrested and taught that works can save.

That is not what James its teaching. He is simply teaching that hollow profession saves no-one, and that true faith will be accompanied by the very works God has ordained we walk in.

So James establishes an example of how those who say they have faith can test it.

And another way to test genuine profession of faith is of course to test the teachings of those who say they speak truth.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Sometimes you can't thats is why we should never judge.
We should never judge?

Did Paul not rebuke the Corinthians for not judging evil works by a professing Christian?


1 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


No, we should not judge...if we promote No-Lordship Salvation, that is.

It is not really a matter of judgment, it is a matter of obedience.



...do you disagree with?

What in this is teaching salvation by works?

Where you are making a mistake is not understanding that in view is evidence of true faith, not the means of salvation.


Your making the mistake of trying to change yourself hopng God will save you, Ad not allowing God to change yourself from within.


My life testifies of change, my friend. I was a drug addict and alcoholic, a Heavy Metal head-banger, lol, and guess what...I'm not anymore.

You again raise a false charge and you cannot support it from anything I have said.



You sound just like the legalist. Even though you claim you are not..
So quote me and show what in my doctrine is legalistic.

That's all you have to do to show you are not bearing false witness.



Do you beleive in eternal security? Does MaCarther??
I believe it better than you do, my friend, and the difference between us is our understanding of the Sovereignty of God.

There is no corruption of Free Will in my Doctrine.

And by the way, MacArthur was instrumental in my early years of faith in helping me to understand that Salvation is eternal. As I have said several times, we are hard pressed to find a better defender of Sola Fide than John MacArthur, and it is a shame that the No-Lordship Movement is bent on denying other believers the benefit of sound teaching that can help them understand the issues you and your fellows are so obviously confused about.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
That is mentioned here:


Jesus Is Lord and Savior
Romans 10:9 says, ìIf you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior who paid the penalty and died for sinners (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, and Christ's perfect life satisfied the demands of God's holiness (2 Corinthians 5:21), thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him(Romans 3:26).
Does not sound like you believe it, You want a change and commitment first..



How does it sound like I don't believe it?

Quote one thing I have said that shows I am not a believer in the above statement.

It is humorous that you cannot dismantle Lordship Salvation, and even more humorous you are forced to implement Lordship Salvation elements in your own responses.


Paul did not say that here, He saiiid confess and have faith.
That is exactly right.

You teach that one does not have to confess...anything.

Just believe.

And that is a gospel that lacks repentance and confession of sins.


That is correct: it is the result of God's intervention.

As is repentance, and confession of sins, which again...applies after we are saved as well.


1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



That is trusting God and recieving freely what God is offering.
And until God shows us our sin, and the righteousness of Christ, and that except we repent we will perish...

...we are natural men blind to sin, righteousness, and judgment:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The No-Lordship Movement denies the results of the Ministry of the Comforter, making the Gospel of Christ simply an intellectual acknowledgement which James reminds us that is something that even demons understand.

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P1LGR1M

Guest
Note the title of the statement:

The Character of Saving Faith

Not...the means of saving faith.
I disagree with hin, He is giving hiself and others to much credit, whcih belongs to Christ.
I disagree with Hinn as well, I view him as a false teacher milking a cash cow, playing on the fears of ignorant believers and unbelievers alike.

;)

But again, the reason why you are failing to engage in this discussion in a relevant manner is because you first ignore what MacArthur and Lordship Salvation adherents actually believe and teach, and secondly because you fail to recognize that in view is not the means of salvation, it addresses evidences of genuine faith versus false profession.

There is a difference between the Character of faith, which Scripture consistently provides for us, and the Means of Faith.

That is why the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers; loss of salvation teachings) fail to understand James' statement as opposed to Paul's statement in regards to faith and works. Paul is speaking about the means, James is speaking about the evidence of faith.



And that is the central issue of the Lordship Salvation Controversy, which does not address the means of salvation, it addresses the character of those saved, and whether we can, Biblically speaking, see that Scripture teaches that very thing.

It is giving people to much credit, and taking credit from God..
A false argument, and one that cannot be seen in MacArthur's anything I have said.


On one side is easy-believism, and on the other is recognition that faith is accompanied by evidences of genuine profession. Those cautions are given in Scripture for the express purpose that people know in no uncertain terms that nominal Christianity should be questioned.

And that's it for the day, I hope. Have to get going but you guys really make this fun, lol

;)


God bless.

Jude, and james spoke of that, I do not need some mad to tell me I MUST MAKE JESUS LORD before I am saved.. That is legalism.



That is simply refusal to be honest about what someone teaches in regards to the issue.

It is false witness against MacArthur, and that is reprehensible.

Even in such a clear statement concerning the Sovereignty of God you try to revile the man.

I know another member's motivation for it, just not sure why you would do it.


The tax collector did not go to make jesus lord, He came to beg for forgiveness, and ask God to change him..
[/QUOTE]

And what we see is that the tax collector obeyed the command to repent, which you deny as associated with the Gospel of Christ:


Luke 18:9-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


We don't have to see the word repentance to recognize repentance.

here is another example of that:


Acts 16:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


The No-Lordship Movement is a false hope given to people who are in desperate need of the Gospel. And the Gospel, qite unlike the preaching and teaching we have seen in this thread, very much has to do with sin, repentance, and a changed life.

I seem to remember one member saying that no fruit has to be evident, and I hope to find that quote as I continue to respond to the posts that promote the No-Lordship gospel.

I have addressed the quote that states this:


Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull



The Character of Saving Faith
Truefaith is always accompanied by repentance from sin.



Wrong.. That is not true at all. Thats adding works to the cross.

That is the message of the No-Lordship Movement, and it is error. There have been a number of passages quoted that show this, and rather than the personal attacks which have been characteristic of this thread so far, I encourage those of you who have embraced No-Lordship Theology to address those Scriptures and show how salvation can be separated from repentance.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
I tried to find something on the Internet with direct quotes from JMcA, but I could not. Lots of people quoting him on both sides, for and against, but nothing from him. Which in itself I find kind of weird! Nothing! On the internet? I didn't think it was that hard to sell books these days. (So he has to withhold what he has written in his book, to sell them?)

I agree with ember, that we cannot add anything to the gospel. Whether JMcA says this or not, I do not know. I did read a long article by John Piper who I like, but do not always agree with. He was firm that we receive Christ as Lord and Saviour at the same time, and then we grow in our walk. That is my experience, but more important, it is Biblical!

I guess this is why I have been so confused about Lordship Salvation. Although we certainly studied heresies in seminary, this was not one of them. Why? Because it is so new? (We never actually studied WoF teachings either!) Or because it is limited to a cult? One which might be growing in size? Or not?

When the people who advocate Lordship Salvation are not willing to post a few words on the Internet concerning their views, I have to think it is a cult. Because if it was true, there would be honest and open discussions about the topic. Even if people disagreed, at least there would be room to understand, to learn and to either accept or reject this.
The link for MacArthur's site was given early on in this thread and has since been given multiple times.

I would suggest, if you want to know what it is that MacArthur teaches, you go to gty.org, his site, and as one member posted get it from the horses mouth.

If you do that, you check back in and let me know if you think MacArthur deserves the charges laid on him by several in this thread.


@PILGRIM

I was most disturbed by your calling out of ember for being a charismatic, as the driving force behind her rejection of Lordship Salvation. In fact, this whole thread was started because a Pentecostal said he agreed with Lordship Salvation. I am NOT charismatic. But if what ember has posted above is true, (and I am sure it is) I am totally against Lordship Salvation. I don't think that Lordship Salvation really has anything to do with whether you are charismatic or not. Just because JMcA is against charismatics and believes in Lordship Salvation, doesn't mean that is the the only combination possible. Again, salvation and the Lordship of Christ are really unrelated to gifts of the Spirit which follow salvation.

It also upsets me that so many people think that the gifts of the Spirit, are tongues, interpretation and prophecy. There are many other gifts, which are very evident in the body of Christ, which are in use in churches which totally eschew tongues.

"having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:6-8

I have always had the gift of teaching, and some gifting in leadership. My husband is very gifted in acts of service and acts of mercy. Are you telling me that makes us charismatics? Or that God gives us no tools to serve him and share the gospel? Sounds like a pretty empty sort of way to serve Christ. Sorry, I am going to keep walking with God, and letting the Holy Spirit empower me to do his will. Without tongues, for those who might think I am reconverting! (Just joking, my good friends!)
I am very sorry you were "disturbed," but understand that (1) I did not call her out for being a Charismatic, but for her false witness, and I simply confronted her about the obvious hatred she has for MacArthur and whether it was because of his teachings about Charismatics. (2) What was in view was her motivation, not the group she associates with. (3) I have charismatic friends and know that despite what I, and John MacArthur, see as doctrinal error...neither one of us intimates enmity towards Charismatics or Pentecostals, simply addressing the errors from a doctrinal perspective.

Lastly, we don't preface sound conclusions with "...if this is true."

You have a responsibility as a Christian...to know if something is true or not.

And you have a responsibility to confront error.

You do this with me, and I appreciate that. However, are you going to embrace the enmity and vitriol that Lordship Salvation receives from people who have motives that themselves are suspect as Christian Conduct? However, I do not target any group, nor do I deny the salvation of any person because they are associated with certain groups...I address the doctrine. And I can tell you with much confidence that the true beef is with MacArthur's teachings on the errors he perceives in Charismatic circles.

So let me ask you, do agree that salvation is absent repentance? That God saves people yet it is possible that there will never be any fruit or evidence of that? That people can be saved yet maintain ungodly lifestyles and habits and say...that's supported by Scripture?

In view is teaching that not only bears false witness against other Christians, as you perceive me to have done, but it is in conflict with Scripture.

So I can only recommend you actually find out for yourself as to whether MacArthur's address of Lordship Salvation is error, and, as falsely claimed by those who are unfamiliar with MacArthur except in regards to his teachings concerning error in the Charismatic Movement, whether he is indeed teaching works-based salvation.

The links I have posted alone show that MacArthur makes it abundantly clear God is Sovereign in salvation, and that no works contribute to that. This is a consistent theme in MacArthur's teachings, and that is why he becomes the Media Focus any time an ecumenical movement seeks to downplay the importance of Doctrinal Purity.

And that is about all the time I have today, but I do want to thank those engaged in the No-Lordship Movement for not only participating that others might learn how damaging No-Lordship teaching is, not only for showing how the teaching impacts attitudes towards what Christian Conduct is, but for also...

...providing me with so many great posts to quote.


;)


It really helps to illustrate the liberal views that have crept into Modern Christendom, and why it is critical that we address these issues..


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
[/COLOR]See what I mean.. You said I need to understand what I already proved I understood.

Be gone dude. I am done playing these games.


Crossnote is right, your in a cult and trying to defend your cult leader at all costs. and all you do is keeping making yourself look bad

First, thanks for illustrating that I have been personally attacked and my character questioned, which by extension is also placing my salvation is question, unless you and he want to say that you feel cult members are saved.

Secondly, let's be honest here, you are not equipped to publicly answer the points and Scripture that have been raised, nor establish that the false charge against MacArthur were in fact false witness.

Be gone? lol

You and your fellows have my full attention. All other threads will be put on hold until we thresh this out.

You can start by addressing your teaching that true faith is not always accompanied with repentance. Please show the passages dealing with repentance do not mean what they say, and can be placed in the No-Lordship Movement.

Until then, understand there is no enmity on my part, and that this is a matter of Doctrine only. And we will see if what I have said is false witness is in fact false witness, and whether you can show that MacArthur is teaching Works-based salvation.

Again, no-one familiar with MacArthur would levy such an absurd charge, though those who have problems with other teachings of his might try to.

I challenge all who have made it clear they have embraced the No-Lordship Salvation Movement to quote MacArthur to justify the charges that have been levied, even as they have been directed at myself.

So until the next appointed time, Lord willing, again I thank you for your participation.


God bless.
 
B

BradC

Guest
If people want a Lordship salvation here is the only one I ascribe to...

Luke 18:10-15

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
If people want a Lordship salvation here is the only one I ascribe to...

Luke 18:10-15

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So you reject teachings of Lordship Salvation? Are you saying that you embrace No-Lordship Salvation?

Do you deny that one repents when they are saved?

Do we see repentance in this passage?


God bless.
 
E

ember

Guest
well...at least we know now what lordship salvation is

we also know that at least one adherent cannot be getting any sleep

gratefully, we can all read and most probably know when insults are the only defense given

thanks everyone who at least tried to make an effort to have a conversation

we can read between the posts ;)
 
E

ember

Guest
I am very sorry you were "disturbed," but understand that (1) I did not call her out for being a Charismatic, but for her false witness, and I simply confronted her about the obvious hatred she has for MacArthur and whether it was because of his teachings about Charismatics. (2) What was in view was her motivation, not the group she associates with. (3) I have charismatic friends and know that despite what I, and John MacArthur, see as doctrinal error...neither one of us intimates enmity towards Charismatics or Pentecostals, simply addressing the errors from a doctrinal perspective.
you must have to keep notes, because your story changes with just about every post

at any rate, you have no power to call out anyone here

this is a forum...and we are equal here

we are not responsible for what some people may imagine themselves to be or for what position they may imagine themselves to have

l realize this post will unleash a flurry of activity which will be wasted because I will not be reading it

I will respond to normal postings but not the angry and insulting ones
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
You can't have one without the other.
As we look to and trust in Christ, to that degree we look away from and distrust all else.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
You can start by addressing your teaching that true faith is not always accompanied with repentance. Please show the passages dealing with repentance do not mean what they say, and can be placed in the No-Lordship Movement.
define 'repentance'
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Be glad to.

Repentance is a pretty basic Bible Doctrine, one most of us should be familiar with.

In regards to repentance that can be defined by Scripture, I have presented quite a few passages and verses dealing with that subject which contrasts the rejection of repentance in association with salvation in Christ by the No-Lordship Movement.

I will present a picture of repentance which I feel spans the Two Covenants in view in the New Testament, meaning the Covenant of Law (Active in the beginning of the Gospels) and the New Covenant (established by Christ through His death and validated with the creation of the Church in Acts):


Matthew 3

King James Version (KJV)
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Scripture is going to define repentance to us here in words and ways that may not be conveyed by a Biblical Dictionary. We can understand what murder is, for example, but when we read of someone being murdered in graphic detail it helps us to better understand the charge of murder. This is the case with repentance.

Here, John preaches repentance. Let's see if we can understand what he has in mind in regards to repentance.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


In Malachi 3 it is written, "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap," so we understand in view is the central Figure of the Lord, and that cleansing is a primary focus, which has as a primary element sin. John will declare the Coming of the Lord just as Malachi refers to it, so all of these elements are a factor we consider.



[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.


A brief description of John which draws up an image of humility.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,


We see that there is a response to John's preaching, and that many came from diverse places in response to the message he was preaching.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


And here we see the result of his preaching in the lives of men: they confess their sin and acknowledge that they are in need of cleansing. Baptism under Law pictures cleansing, just as Christian Baptism pictures our "death, burial, and resurrection" with Christ. The Law had a foundational doctrine of baptisms, or washings.

Here, we see repentance, which is John's message, results in confession of sins.

Now, I will point out that John, great preacher of the Old Testament Era...cannot hold a candle to the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, that is, the Comforter. The difference between John speaking to men and God Himself speaking directly to men is not even something that can be compared. Men might preach great and Biblical sermons, but if the Comforter does not open the minds of men to the truth those great preachers convey, then those minds remain darkened.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Now we are given explicit detail of what is not repentance, and it is easy enough to see that it is the lifestyles of the Pharisees and Sadducees John condemns:



[SUP]8 [/SUP]Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


In other words "...prove you are repentant!"

This does not establish a works-based salvation, because John in not preaching nor revealing the Gospel of Christ...he is calling men to repentance under an Old Testament Standard. John does point to the Redemption Christ will bring, in fact declaring him the "Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world," but, John will just before his death send two disciples to inquire if Jesus is the Messiah of Scripture (Matthew 11:1-3).

So what we do not want to do with this passage is impose a salvific connotation to John's preaching. Truly repentance was demanded of the Old Testament Saint, but John will declare the way of salvation in the next few verses.

John's demand that they "bring forth fruits meet for repentance" points, as mentioned, to their lifestyles. Their lives presented to John evidence...that their "repentance" was not genuine.

One aspect we already know to be associated with John's Baptism is...confession of sins. Other who John did baptize confessed their sins, and while we might not be dogmatic, I think the text implies that these fellows had not confessed their sins, thus John refuses to baptize them.

And he demands they first show fruits that evidence genuine repentance.

And before we leave this verse, I think we have to keep in mind that what is made clear is that the baptism of John did not produce repentance, it was undergone by those who had already repented.

And because they had not repented...John refused to baptize them.



[SUP]9 [/SUP]And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Here John warns that one cannot rely on heritage. It is a simple truth...God has no grandchildren. All men are born out of relationship with God, but, many will assume that since they have grown up in the Church they are in relationship with God. But relationship with God is, as it is often said, a personal relationship between God and the individual, and should be contrasted with the means of relationship God provided to the Old Testament "model," or "picture" of the One Fold God has intended to create from before the world was formed. Israel was the People of God, anyone who denies that simply refuses to accept a very basic Bible Truth. Being a member of Israel did not mean that all of Israel were eternally redeemed, that is something only effected by Christ.

And here, John goes to the heart of religious heritage. "Don't think that because you are of Israel that you do not need to repent of your sins!"

John does not view repentance as optional, or that there is something men can present that denies that which God demands. And in view is sin. Israel sinned, God called them to repent, and that is what had to be done. When Christ sent the disciples out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, He sent them out "to the Lost Sheep of Israel only," giving instruction that they were not to go to the Gentiles, they were not to go unto the Samaritans ( Matthew 10:5-7 ). The word translated "lost" is the same word used to speak of eternal destruction in Hell. What the Lord is saying is that Israel was in a state of destruction, and that destruction is shared by all of mankind.

And we see that repentance is an element that is just basic to God's Redemptive measures.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Here John speaks of judgment for those...who do not repent. That is what in view: repent or face judgment.

And in the Gospels the cutting down of trees and the burning spoken of by John is often associated with eternal judgment.

That which is burned is that which is rejected of God. Often trees present the imagery of that which bears fruit. We see good trees with good fruit, and bad trees with evil fruit.

And what is John's message?

Repent.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Here John contrasts his own baptism with a Baptizer and a Baptism that is future, one (the Baptisms themselves, not the Baptizer) not in existence at the time of his message: that is Christ and the Baptisms He will effect.

Those two Baptisms echo the options John provides: repent or be judged.

The two baptisms John speaks of Christ effecting are the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which represents salvation in Christ through the reconciliatory Work of bringing those separated from God into union with Himself through the Eternal Indwelling Christ taught would come after He returned to Heaven, and the baptism with fire, which represents the other option all men face, that is...eternal judgment.

John defines these two Baptisms in the next verse:


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I use color to differentiate the definitions given. Those Baptized with the Holy Ghost are those that are wheat gathered into His Garner, and those baptized with fire are those who will be burned up.

So we see repentance defined here and are given the outcomes of the response of those hearing the message. We see those that John baptized confessing their sins, which is demanded of God by God's messenger, and we see the Pharisees and Sadducees refused baptism based on their fruit. He as much as calls them evil trees deserving of being cut down, but, he is still calling them to repentance, and not only that, has the utter gall to demand they evidence true repentance in their lives.

Now I have addressed in several posts the suggestion of the No-Lordship Movement that repentance is not associated with the Gospel. Many verses dealing with repentance and it's association with genuine profession of faith have been given, so I would ask that those be addressed by any who do not see the definition Scripture gives of repentance in those verses, and how they are not only associated with Salvation and the Gospel, but are basic to our understanding of sin and Redemption in Christ.

Do we really think that those who approach Christ in an unrepentant attitude will be saved?

Is there anyone here who can testify that when they were saved, God did not show them their sin and bring about repentance? I would like to hear that testimony. I think most of us would admit that when we were saved, the fact that we were sinners was one of the key elements to our looking to Christ as our Savior.

So how do we support a Movement that removes basic elements of Salvation from the Gospel?


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
You can't have one without the other.
As we look to and trust in Christ, to that degree we look away from and distrust all else.
Salvation has no flip-sides, Faith and Repentance are better described in terms of character, rather than something we have to turn over to discover.


God bless.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Oh, Pilgrim. So close, and yet, so far. Lines and lines of rhetoric calling "repentance", 'the quitting of sinning'. Still we are faced with the fact that God, Himself, repented 28 times. Where was the sin He had to quit?

Are we ever going to escape this idea of "acting" our way into Salvation, rather than what it really is, BELIEVING on Christ and His promises?
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
you must have to keep notes, because your story changes with just about every post
Show one inconsistency in my Doctrine or statements, as I have clearly shown in yours.


at any rate, you have no power to call out anyone here
Sure I do, and the authority I have is rooted in Scripture.

It is always going to be wrong to bear false witness, and to have as a motive hatred for someone because their doctrine is contrary to what we want to believe is reprehensible. And for that kind of conduct to go, not only not addressed, but liked by others professing to believe the Word of God yet will not lift a finger to stand for it...goes beyond reprehensible.

And that is why the Body of Christ is weak in this world today.

Liberal Theology is a convenient cloak to hide behind to promote propaganda that is contrary to the Word of God.


this is a forum...and we are equal here
You can teach that, I prefer to acknowledge the fact that Scripture teaches that only in salvation are Christians equal, a point MacArthur always makes clear when he addresses Lordship Salvation versus the No-Lordship Movement, just as he makes clear when he addresses Christianity versus Charismania.

Scripture is clear that there is a need for Sound Doctrine, and teachers that can preserve the Word of God and Doctrinal Purity.

This demands a distinction between those who have been diligent in study, and those who take a few key phrases and teach opinions of men.

Now you go tell the Moderators and Staff of this Forum that you are their equal, and you are going to dictate to them how they are going to run this forum...see how far you get proving your Equality Doctrine.


we are not responsible for what some people may imagine themselves to be or for what position they may imagine themselves to have
We are responsible, and that is the very reason I got involved in this thread to begin with.

We are responsible to our brothers and sisters, when we perceive fault or error...to correct them. Not to do so establishes one of the purest forms of hatred there is...indifference.

Scripture does not teach that as Christian Conduct. Nor does it promote antipathy.


l realize this post will unleash a flurry of activity which will be wasted because I will not be reading it
Yes you will.


I will respond to normal postings but not the angry and insulting ones
Yes you will. My only hope is that you will begin to actually address the doctrinal aspects of this Controversy rather than resorting to personal character attacks.

You perceive enmity which is not there. I would not have bothered to get involved if I did not care.

Someone has to point out that false witness is wrong, and sometimes we can be in a fault and not realize it, and are dependent on our brothers and sisters to call us out on it.

Just as a suggestion, anyone involved in the No-Lordship Movement would do well to, instead of letting their emotions be the determiner of the Doctrine and Practice, actually take a look at what John MacArthur has to say about Lordship Salvation.

This is not a new issue, it is in fact an ancient heresy in the Church, dealt with by John and James in great detail. While legalism is certainly an issue we must also deal with, the powerless gospel of Antinomianism has to be addressed as well.

As one member rightly pointed out in this thread, the error of over-exaggeration is something we have to be on guard against.



God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Oh, Pilgrim. So close, and yet, so far. Lines and lines of rhetoric calling "repentance", 'the quitting of sinning'. Still we are faced with the fact that God, Himself, repented 28 times. Where was the sin He had to quit?

Are we ever going to escape this idea of "acting" our way into Salvation, rather than what it really is, BELIEVING on Christ and His promises?
This is a false argument.

At no times have I been unclear that Salvation is wholly the work of God.

Now, you tell me this: do you believe in free will?

You have ignored the many posts dealing with repentance that I have done already, and I ask you...why?

You say we "believe our way into salvation?"

That is not a Biblical Doctrine.

We cannot believe in our natural state, only by Divine intervention are we enlightened and brought to repentance, because it is God that shows us our condition.

So instead of taking potshots, get busy in addressing what has been stated in previous posts. I don't mind beginning all over again, because this is an important issue, and one of great confusion which divides the Body, but, I have presented repentance in many posts already that show that it is simply an element of genuine conversion.

You say we believe our way into salvation, and that is imposing an ability in man that is not there.

We respond to the free gift of salvation, and can no more attribute that to ourselves than the dead man in the ER can say he revived himself. Does the dead man resuscitate himself? No, and neither does the natural man believe himself into salvation.

And just as mentioned in the thread about Hebrews, we see that there are those who effect the only free will natural man has, and that is to willingly reject, in full knowledge of the truth...the Divine Intervention which is attributed only to Sovereign God in Scripture.


God bless.