LORDSHIP SALVATION

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P1LGR1M

Guest
well...at least we know now what lordship salvation is
Seriously doubtful.

It is not going to be until you meet the challenge to actually study the issue that you will actually come to an understanding. And then you will be forced to refrain from bearing false witness against men like MacArthur who provide teachings that help people to understand the issue.

Just as this posts seeks to do, your teaching appeals to the emotions of the members here.

You make false statements that are irrelevant to the issue, because you cannot address the issue/s themselves.

That is not an attack, that is just the simple truth that is made very apparent in this discussion.

You have been asked several times to quote MacArthur's actual teachings but you have refused to do so. Only one member has attempted to do that, and the result was a mixture of Lordship Salvation teachings and rejection of some very basic Bible Principles.

So appeal to emotion, just don't forget that the emotions you are experiencing just may be conviction of sin.



we also know that at least one adherent cannot be getting any sleep
I sleep just fine, my conscience is clear, lol.

That is possible when one knows what they believe, rather than believes something they are told.

Indoctrination is one of the greatest problems the Body of Christ faces.



gratefully, we can all read and most probably know when insults are the only defense given
You speak of yourself. Do you really deny that you reared up in emotional response when your teachings were questioned?

Do you deny that you have enmity against MacArthur, not because he teaches Lordship Salvation (which is actually a predominant position in Charismatic Circles to my knowledge)...but because he challenges other beliefs you have?

As MacArthur states, lack of discernment is a serious problem in the Body, and we can all have discernment if we simply get into the Word of God.


Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



thanks everyone who at least tried to make an effort to have a conversation
Your welcome.

;)


we can read between the posts ;)
Yes, there is certainly an undercurrent on every forum, which is why I limit my time on each forum.

I prefer not to tread through sewage myself, but, to each his own.


God bless.
 
E

ember

Guest
Oh, Pilgrim. So close, and yet, so far. Lines and lines of rhetoric calling "repentance", 'the quitting of sinning'. Still we are faced with the fact that God, Himself, repented 28 times. Where was the sin He had to quit?

Are we ever going to escape this idea of "acting" our way into Salvation, rather than what it really is, BELIEVING on Christ and His promises?

that says it all

and thank you!

end of this thread for me :eek:
 
E

ember

Guest



this thread should end too

no cover up intended

if anyone responds to this silliness? says more than I ever could
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest



this thread should end too

no cover up intended

if anyone responds to this silliness? says more than I ever could

Well, according to your view, we are all equal here, so why don't you end the thread?


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest



this thread should end too

no cover up intended

if anyone responds to this silliness? says more than I ever could
And another question arises...does this mean that understanding Lordship Salvation was not your intent? You are the OP aren't you?

So when the discussion centers on Lordship Salvation it is only acceptable if we speak derisively about it, but unacceptable when we speak of the No-Lordship Salvation Movement?

Again I ask...who is teaching Lordship Salvation?


God bless.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Be glad to.

Repentance is a pretty basic Bible Doctrine, one most of us should be familiar with.

In regards to repentance that can be defined by Scripture, I have presented quite a few passages and verses dealing with that subject which contrasts the rejection of repentance in association with salvation in Christ by the No-Lordship Movement.

I will present a picture of repentance which I feel spans the Two Covenants in view in the New Testament, meaning the Covenant of Law (Active in the beginning of the Gospels) and the New Covenant (established by Christ through His death and validated with the creation of the Church in Acts):


Matthew 3

King James Version (KJV)
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Scripture is going to define repentance to us here in words and ways that may not be conveyed by a Biblical Dictionary. We can understand what murder is, for example, but when we read of someone being murdered in graphic detail it helps us to better understand the charge of murder. This is the case with repentance.

Here, John preaches repentance. Let's see if we can understand what he has in mind in regards to repentance.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


In Malachi 3 it is written, "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap," so we understand in view is the central Figure of the Lord, and that cleansing is a primary focus, which has as a primary element sin. John will declare the Coming of the Lord just as Malachi refers to it, so all of these elements are a factor we consider.



[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.


A brief description of John which draws up an image of humility.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,


We see that there is a response to John's preaching, and that many came from diverse places in response to the message he was preaching.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


And here we see the result of his preaching in the lives of men: they confess their sin and acknowledge that they are in need of cleansing. Baptism under Law pictures cleansing, just as Christian Baptism pictures our "death, burial, and resurrection" with Christ. The Law had a foundational doctrine of baptisms, or washings.

Here, we see repentance, which is John's message, results in confession of sins.

Now, I will point out that John, great preacher of the Old Testament Era...cannot hold a candle to the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, that is, the Comforter. The difference between John speaking to men and God Himself speaking directly to men is not even something that can be compared. Men might preach great and Biblical sermons, but if the Comforter does not open the minds of men to the truth those great preachers convey, then those minds remain darkened.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Now we are given explicit detail of what is not repentance, and it is easy enough to see that it is the lifestyles of the Pharisees and Sadducees John condemns:



[SUP]8 [/SUP]Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


In other words "...prove you are repentant!"

This does not establish a works-based salvation, because John in not preaching nor revealing the Gospel of Christ...he is calling men to repentance under an Old Testament Standard. John does point to the Redemption Christ will bring, in fact declaring him the "Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world," but, John will just before his death send two disciples to inquire if Jesus is the Messiah of Scripture (Matthew 11:1-3).

So what we do not want to do with this passage is impose a salvific connotation to John's preaching. Truly repentance was demanded of the Old Testament Saint, but John will declare the way of salvation in the next few verses.

John's demand that they "bring forth fruits meet for repentance" points, as mentioned, to their lifestyles. Their lives presented to John evidence...that their "repentance" was not genuine.

One aspect we already know to be associated with John's Baptism is...confession of sins. Other who John did baptize confessed their sins, and while we might not be dogmatic, I think the text implies that these fellows had not confessed their sins, thus John refuses to baptize them.

And he demands they first show fruits that evidence genuine repentance.

And before we leave this verse, I think we have to keep in mind that what is made clear is that the baptism of John did not produce repentance, it was undergone by those who had already repented.

And because they had not repented...John refused to baptize them.



[SUP]9 [/SUP]And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Here John warns that one cannot rely on heritage. It is a simple truth...God has no grandchildren. All men are born out of relationship with God, but, many will assume that since they have grown up in the Church they are in relationship with God. But relationship with God is, as it is often said, a personal relationship between God and the individual, and should be contrasted with the means of relationship God provided to the Old Testament "model," or "picture" of the One Fold God has intended to create from before the world was formed. Israel was the People of God, anyone who denies that simply refuses to accept a very basic Bible Truth. Being a member of Israel did not mean that all of Israel were eternally redeemed, that is something only effected by Christ.

And here, John goes to the heart of religious heritage. "Don't think that because you are of Israel that you do not need to repent of your sins!"

John does not view repentance as optional, or that there is something men can present that denies that which God demands. And in view is sin. Israel sinned, God called them to repent, and that is what had to be done. When Christ sent the disciples out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, He sent them out "to the Lost Sheep of Israel only," giving instruction that they were not to go to the Gentiles, they were not to go unto the Samaritans ( Matthew 10:5-7 ). The word translated "lost" is the same word used to speak of eternal destruction in Hell. What the Lord is saying is that Israel was in a state of destruction, and that destruction is shared by all of mankind.

And we see that repentance is an element that is just basic to God's Redemptive measures.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Here John speaks of judgment for those...who do not repent. That is what in view: repent or face judgment.

And in the Gospels the cutting down of trees and the burning spoken of by John is often associated with eternal judgment.

That which is burned is that which is rejected of God. Often trees present the imagery of that which bears fruit. We see good trees with good fruit, and bad trees with evil fruit.

And what is John's message?

Repent.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Here John contrasts his own baptism with a Baptizer and a Baptism that is future, one (the Baptisms themselves, not the Baptizer) not in existence at the time of his message: that is Christ and the Baptisms He will effect.

Those two Baptisms echo the options John provides: repent or be judged.

The two baptisms John speaks of Christ effecting are the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which represents salvation in Christ through the reconciliatory Work of bringing those separated from God into union with Himself through the Eternal Indwelling Christ taught would come after He returned to Heaven, and the baptism with fire, which represents the other option all men face, that is...eternal judgment.

John defines these two Baptisms in the next verse:


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I use color to differentiate the definitions given. Those Baptized with the Holy Ghost are those that are wheat gathered into His Garner, and those baptized with fire are those who will be burned up.

So we see repentance defined here and are given the outcomes of the response of those hearing the message. We see those that John baptized confessing their sins, which is demanded of God by God's messenger, and we see the Pharisees and Sadducees refused baptism based on their fruit. He as much as calls them evil trees deserving of being cut down, but, he is still calling them to repentance, and not only that, has the utter gall to demand they evidence true repentance in their lives.

Now I have addressed in several posts the suggestion of the No-Lordship Movement that repentance is not associated with the Gospel. Many verses dealing with repentance and it's association with genuine profession of faith have been given, so I would ask that those be addressed by any who do not see the definition Scripture gives of repentance in those verses, and how they are not only associated with Salvation and the Gospel, but are basic to our understanding of sin and Redemption in Christ.

Do we really think that those who approach Christ in an unrepentant attitude will be saved?

Is there anyone here who can testify that when they were saved, God did not show them their sin and bring about repentance? I would like to hear that testimony. I think most of us would admit that when we were saved, the fact that we were sinners was one of the key elements to our looking to Christ as our Savior.

So how do we support a Movement that removes basic elements of Salvation from the Gospel?


God bless.
you have not really defined 'repentance'

all you have really done is to try to prove that repentance is necessary to salvation...

so we still need a definition for 'repentance' if we are going to have anything productive to talk about...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Today who, besides John Mac Arthur and his disciples, teaches Lordship Salvation?
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
you have not really defined 'repentance'
I have. And you are welcome to address the numerous posts preceding the one given in response to your request for a definition of repentance in relation to salvation in Christ.

You are welcome to critique the post addressed to you to show why the definition and address of repentance in association with John's teaching is error. It was not given as the only definition, or negate the numerous texts we must consult for a Biblical Definition.


all you have really done is to try to prove that repentance is necessary to salvation...
I'm not "trying to prove" anything, lol, there is no debate.

The teaching of the No-Lordship Movement is error, and to say that repentance or sin is not associated with the Gospel and Salvation in Christ is absurd.

You change the truth, "True faith is always associated with repentance" to the false argument that I am "trying to prove repentance is necessary for salvation."

You make the same mistake many have made in this thread by disassociating repentance from salvation.

So just as you err in changing the statement, even so this entire thread has been a parade of false arguments against those who understand that salvation is the Work of Sovereign God, and everything associated with that salvation has to be included.

Again, the No-Lordship Movement denies the power of God in converting sinners, and teaches a false gospel that is actually in conflict with Salvation in Christ. The converts are nominal professors of the existence of Christ and His death, and the magnitude of what that Death accomplishes. Those who are born again will receive the fruit of salvation, and that fruit will be something that can be examined. A primary means of evidence of fruit is whether one remains in the Faith of Christ or not. A good example is the "atheist" who says "I was saved but now I am not."

Was he saved?

Is that the depth of the power of God unto salvation? That men can take it on and cast it off at their whim?

No, that is not what Scripture teaches, and it is a salvation that is false and powerless to cleanse the convert from sin. No-one is saying it happens all at once, but, we are not saved to be left to the power of sin, but to be cleansed from sin as we grow.

Repentance is just as much the act of Sovereign God as the result of faith is. Natural man has no comprehension of his sin, and must be enlightened to His condition. The Comforter performs this Ministry in this Age, and brings conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The natural man can reject that ministry and thus be held to a more severe punishment than those in former Ages when the Gospel of Christ was not revealed, but remained the Hidden Wisdom of God, secret, a mystery not previously revealed.

While those who teach a greasy grace gospel think they do God a service, and I think most are sincere in their views, they do damage to the very purpose of the Word of God, which has from the Garden brought conviction of sin to the minds of those who have had the will of God revealed to them. Eve knew what God had commanded, yet was deceived. Adam knew as well, and willingly rejected obedience. So too all men will be held accountable for their response to the revealed will of God. God is just and will justly hold them accountable for the revelation they receive.

No man will stand before God and say "I didn't know," for all men are given revelation of God to some extent.

And what we can say for sure is that repentance is a primary Bible Doctrine which is closely associated with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Matthew 9:13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


It is hard for the No-Lordship Movement to kick against the goads.


so we still need a definition for 'repentance' if we are going to have anything productive to talk about...
So address the posts already given.

Or address my own error you [perceive.

I can't discuss what it is you feel is repentance and how it relates to Salvation in Christ if you do not say anything, lol.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Today who, besides John Mac Arthur and his disciples, teaches Lordship Salvation?
And more importantly...what are they teaching?

This is the very thing this thread has refused to address.

Only one person has taken the initiative to actually address what John MacArthur actually teaches on the subject.

As I said early on, MacArthur's teaching addresses what is usually presented as a negative term, an issue that is not new to Christian circles, and is not distinctly MacArthurian. False witness has been levied against him, and that is reprehensible.

As I also said, few men are going to be found who can better represent Christians on the matter of Sola Fide. He has consistently been a staunch defender of Salvation by Grace through Faith alone throughout his career, and for someone, or anyone, to deprive of a teacher that can not only define the Lordship Salvation Controversy, but also show the danger of the No-Lordship Movement...is at best questionable.

To support such gossip and false witness has to be questioned as well.

MacArthur doesn't produce cult followers, he produces disciples of Christ. So we have to determine, will our goal be making friends, or, shall we follow MacArthur's example and seek to make disciples of Christ.

I again issue the challenge to any No-Lordship proponent to quote MacArthur's teaching and show him teaching works-based salvation.

Simply absurd.


God bless.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Today who, besides John Mac Arthur and his disciples, teaches Lordship Salvation?
And more importantly...what are they teaching?

This is the very thing this thread has refused to address.

Only one person has taken the initiative to actually address what John MacArthur actually teaches on the subject.

As I said early on, MacArthur's teaching addresses what is usually presented as a negative term, an issue that is not new to Christian circles, and is not distinctly MacArthurian. False witness has been levied against him, and that is reprehensible.

As I also said, few men are going to be found who can better represent Christians on the matter of Sola Fide. He has consistently been a staunch defender of Salvation by Grace through Faith alone throughout his career, and for someone, or anyone, to deprive of a teacher that can not only define the Lordship Salvation Controversy, but also show the danger of the No-Lordship Movement...is at best questionable.

To support such gossip and false witness has to be questioned as well.

MacArthur doesn't produce cult followers, he produces disciples of Christ. So we have to determine, will our goal be making friends, or, shall we follow MacArthur's example and seek to make disciples of Christ.

I again issue the challenge to any No-Lordship proponent to quote MacArthur's teaching and show him teaching works-based salvation.

Simply absurd.


God bless.
you addressed the question without answering it.
Let me slightly modify it.

Who, in the past 150 years before John MacArthur, taught Lordship salvation?
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
you addressed the question without answering it.
Let me slightly modify it.

Who, in the past 150 years before John MacArthur, taught Lordship salvation?
(sneaking in) Rome.

Its hard to completely leave Rome.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
you addressed the question without answering it.
Let me slightly modify it.

Who, in the past 150 years before John MacArthur, taught Lordship salvation?

Fair enough, though it is my own question being asked, and has been asked at least twice, and I have not has a response yet...


Again I ask...who is teaching Lordship Salvation?


God bless.

...so my apologies for not answering, lol, because I am waiting for the No-Lordship adherents to answer it myself.


The answer to your question...

Who, in the past 150 years before John MacArthur, taught Lordship salvation?
...demands first a challenge to the parameters.

Why do you stipulate the last 150 years?

The primary question would be "Is Lordship Salvation false teaching?"

This is setting boundaries which can only serve to further confuse the issue, and perpetuate discussion that will never conclude.

So let's just open the question up a little, and include all of History. If we ask "Who is teaching eternal redemption through Christ in all of history," we can include everyone who has actually taught it.

If we say "Who has taught eternal redemption through Christ in the last 150 years," we limit the scope.

And in regards to Lordship Salvation, just as in regards to Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the only reason to try to limit it is for the purpose of furthering an agenda.

So I am going to first answer the question without your restriction of the History of Man as a whole first:

We could start with Moses as being the first "Teacher" from a standpoint of recognition as actually being a teacher. He did this through the ministry he was led to perform by God. We could include the Prophets, then present Christ, The Teacher, and the Spirit of God, The Teacher, as well as every New Testament writer we have. We could pick through the teachings of believers after the First Century, and find those that affirm the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereignty, though we do not have the benefit of being able to present any of those teachers as being infallible in their teachings, unless one decides that their teachings are to be given the same Authority Scripture deserves. Some do.

We work our way through those teachers to the guidelines of your question, and I will present a teaching from MacArthur's site which discusses the issue:



A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy
Most of my theological opponents in the lordship debate were fellow conservative evangelicals who had been my friends and allies in earlier controversies regarding the charismatic movement and the inerrancy of the Scriptures. They were men whom I deeply respected (and still esteem highly for much of the work they have done).

But they were promoting a view of the gospel that, from a biblical perspective, seemed seriously flawed. They insisted there is no place in the gospel for the proclamation of Jesus' lordship. They said those who call unbelievers to surrender to Christ's authority are preaching a gospel of works. They taught that repentance is a false addition to the gospel message. They objected to any kind of evangelism that employed the language of denying oneself, taking up a cross, and following Christ (cf. Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23). They declared that devotion to Christ, love for Him, and obedience to His commands are all matters that pertain to discipleship rather than saving faith. Faith, they said, is merely the acceptance of salvation as a free and unconditional gift—and they portrayed discipleship as a second-level commitment. Therefore, according to their view, the gospel presents Jesus as Savior only, not as Lord.


Nearly all the leading advocates of the no-lordship gospel were associated with Dallas Theological Seminary. In fact, Dr. James M. Boice, who wrote powerfully in defense of "lordship salvation" long before I entered the fray, referred to their view as "the Dallas Doctrine."


The pedigree of no-lordship doctrine at Dallas Seminary is traceable back to founder Lewis Sperry Chafer. The doctrine apparently stemmed from Chafer's misguided attempts to develop a uniquely dispensationalist soteriology. Chafer (together with other early dispensationalists, including C. I. Scofield) was so zealous to eliminate every vestige of law from the dispensation of grace that he embraced a kind of antinomianism. That was the seed from which the no-lordship gospel sprouted.

Apparently, no-lordship doctrine no longer dominates Dallas Seminary the way it once did, but controversy over the issue is by no means dead. The past year or so has seen publication of a few new books touting the no-lordship view, attempting to revive the debate yet again. At least one organization, the Grace Evangelical Society, was founded in the heat of the controversy a decade and a half ago and regularly publishes a journal and a newsletter devoted to defending no-lordship theology. The question evidently remains unsettled for many.





That would fall into who was teaching about Lordship Salvation in the last 150 years.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
(sneaking in) Rome.

Its hard to completely leave Rome.
There is a difference between Lordship Salvation as addressed from a Biblical perspective and works-based salvation as erroneously applied to Lordship Salvation as a whole.

Catholic teachings can be compared on certain points, but, if we examine the foundation of the teachers we see an entirely different perspective on salvation, whereas, MacArthur, for example, clarifies salvation cannot be obtained through works which men do...



An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.

First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.

Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.

Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.

Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.

Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.

Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.



Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.



...whereas Catholic Doctrine establishes that men maintain their salvation through efforts they effect.

Two entirely different teachings, just as Lordship Salvation is to the No-Lordship Salvation Movement.

That doesn't mean we assume that all Catholics embrace this Doctrinal Position, Martin Luther being a good example. Where Martin Luther stands apart from Catholics who do acknowledge that Christ is the only means of salvation and there works do not contribute to that is that he had the courage to stand firm in his convictions to the point of addressing the errors that the leadership of the Catholic Church had fallen into in regards to Doctrine and Practice.

MacArthur is a man like Luther, and stands firm in his convictions. And he has consistently and successfully defended Sola Fide for years.


God bless.
 
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crossnote

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Fair enough, though it is my own question being asked, and has been asked at least twice, and I have not has a response yet...





...so my apologies for not answering, lol, because I am waiting for the No-Lordship adherents to answer it myself.


The answer to your question...



...demands first a challenge to the parameters.

Why do you stipulate the last 150 years?

The primary question would be "Is Lordship Salvation false teaching?"

This is setting boundaries which can only serve to further confuse the issue, and perpetuate discussion that will never conclude.

So let's just open the question up a little, and include all of History. If we ask "Who is teaching eternal redemption through Christ in all of history," we can include everyone who has actually taught it.

If we say "Who has taught eternal redemption through Christ in the last 150 years," we limit the scope.

And in regards to Lordship Salvation, just as in regards to Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the only reason to try to limit it is for the purpose of furthering an agenda.

So I am going to first answer the question without your restriction of the History of Man as a whole first:

We could start with Moses as being the first "Teacher" from a standpoint of recognition as actually being a teacher. He did this through the ministry he was led to perform by God. We could include the Prophets, then present Christ, The Teacher, and the Spirit of God, The Teacher, as well as every New Testament writer we have. We could pick through the teachings of believers after the First Century, and find those that affirm the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereignty, though we do not have the benefit of being able to present any of those teachers as being infallible in their teachings, unless one decides that their teachings are to be given the same Authority Scripture deserves. Some do.

We work our way through those teachers to the guidelines of your question, and I will present a teaching from MacArthur's site which discusses the issue:



A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy
Most of my theological opponents in the lordship debate were fellow conservative evangelicals who had been my friends and allies in earlier controversies regarding the charismatic movement and the inerrancy of the Scriptures. They were men whom I deeply respected (and still esteem highly for much of the work they have done).

But they were promoting a view of the gospel that, from a biblical perspective, seemed seriously flawed. They insisted there is no place in the gospel for the proclamation of Jesus' lordship. They said those who call unbelievers to surrender to Christ's authority are preaching a gospel of works. They taught that repentance is a false addition to the gospel message. They objected to any kind of evangelism that employed the language of denying oneself, taking up a cross, and following Christ (cf. Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23). They declared that devotion to Christ, love for Him, and obedience to His commands are all matters that pertain to discipleship rather than saving faith. Faith, they said, is merely the acceptance of salvation as a free and unconditional gift—and they portrayed discipleship as a second-level commitment. Therefore, according to their view, the gospel presents Jesus as Savior only, not as Lord.


Nearly all the leading advocates of the no-lordship gospel were associated with Dallas Theological Seminary. In fact, Dr. James M. Boice, who wrote powerfully in defense of "lordship salvation" long before I entered the fray, referred to their view as "the Dallas Doctrine."


The pedigree of no-lordship doctrine at Dallas Seminary is traceable back to founder Lewis Sperry Chafer. The doctrine apparently stemmed from Chafer's misguided attempts to develop a uniquely dispensationalist soteriology. Chafer (together with other early dispensationalists, including C. I. Scofield) was so zealous to eliminate every vestige of law from the dispensation of grace that he embraced a kind of antinomianism. That was the seed from which the no-lordship gospel sprouted.

Apparently, no-lordship doctrine no longer dominates Dallas Seminary the way it once did, but controversy over the issue is by no means dead. The past year or so has seen publication of a few new books touting the no-lordship view, attempting to revive the debate yet again. At least one organization, the Grace Evangelical Society, was founded in the heat of the controversy a decade and a half ago and regularly publishes a journal and a newsletter devoted to defending no-lordship theology. The question evidently remains unsettled for many.





That would fall into who was teaching about Lordship Salvation in the last 150 years.


God bless.
i brought up 150 years before MacArthur to avoid any mixture of Mac Arthur's influence. What I sould have said asked was "Who were those teachers espousing Lordship salvation between 1800 - 1950" this is recent enough to check them out firsthand and not so ancient to get a quick answer like 'the apostles did'.
 

crossnote

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Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
You can't have one without the other.
As we look to and trust in Christ, to that degree we look away from and distrust all else.
Salvation has no flip-sides, Faith and Repentance are better described in terms of character, rather than something we have to turn over to discover.


God bless.
ugh, wish I had seen this earlier.

It sounds as if you are saying a person needs to do a little bit of clean up before receiving Christ by faith.


The Reformers would say faith is the beggars empty hand that receives Christ.

I never said that faith and repentance was a ' turning over to discover'.
 
P

P1LGR1M

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i brought up 150 years before MacArthur to avoid any mixture of Mac Arthur's influence. What I sould have said asked was "Who were those teachers espousing Lordship salvation between 1800 - 1950" this is recent enough to check them out firsthand and not so ancient to get a quick answer like 'the apostles did'.
What does "MacArthur's influence" have to do with the issue?

Do we have to consider Catholicism's influence to address works-based salvation? Whether it was addressed in Scripture before men began clinging to Systems of Theology?

And if you have a problem with "The Apostles taught Lordship Salvation" then you can certainly get busy showing how they did not, lol.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Originally Posted by crossnote
Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
You can't have one without the other.
As we look to and trust in Christ, to that degree we look away from and distrust all else.
Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Salvation has no flip-sides, Faith and Repentance are better described in terms of character, rather than something we have to turn over to discover.


God bless.

ugh, wish I had seen this earlier.

It sounds as if you are saying a person needs to do a little bit of clean up before receiving Christ by faith.
How is pointing out that faith and repentance are two associated elements clearly taught in Scripture equate to "do(ing) a little bit of clean-up before receiving Christ?"

You are still falsely representing both myself and Lordship Salvation.

There is no way my statement can be seen as this. and I have emphasized the portion of my statement that makes this clear.

The two sides of a coin usually represent to different things, heads I win...tails you lose.

And one thing I can say is...you have definitely earned some chain yanking for calling me a cult follower.


;)


The Reformers would say faith is the beggars empty hand that receives Christ.
The Reformers are a diverse bunch with plenty of issues to pick apart from a Biblical perspective. We could start with Luther's 95 Thesis, for example. Read it and tell me you are in full agreement with everything said.


I never said that faith and repentance was a ' turning over to discover'.
I know, you too make a clear statement that I agree with:


Originally Posted by crossnote
Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
You can't have one without the other.
As we look to and trust in Christ, to that degree we look away from and distrust all else.

Now reread the thread and tell me if that is the sentiment presented by all participants.

The true answer to the question "Who is teaching Lordship Salvation" is...quite a few people who apparently have created their own idea of what it is, what it deals with, and whether it is something that should be rejected or accepted.

It is just going to happen that people are going to establish views which are based, not on the actual doctrines and practices of the ones who have embraced it, but on what they want it to mean, and usually...there is an agenda behind such manipulation.

The agenda in this thread was pretty clear, and the attempts at self justification in this thread only serve to illustrate that repentance is certainly still a valid necessity in the lives of believers, both before and after salvation. The question is whether one ascribes salvific quality to repentance or not.

You have those who do.

Those who don't.

And those who could careless and have no qualms bearing false witness about what others teach so they can further their own agenda, which is usually self serving.

;)


God bless.
 

crossnote

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What does "MacArthur's influence" have to do with the issue?

Do we have to consider Catholicism's influence to address works-based salvation? Whether it was addressed in Scripture before men began clinging to Systems of Theology?

And if you have a problem with "The Apostles taught Lordship Salvation" then you can certainly get busy showing how they did not, lol.


God bless.
I see. You are evasive on that point. Might we conclude it is a new teaching then?
 

crossnote

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How is pointing out that faith and repentance are two associated elements clearly taught in Scripture equate to "do(ing) a little bit of clean-up before receiving Christ?"

You are still falsely representing both myself and Lordship Salvation.
You set up a straw man to defend your position by bringing forth the wrong reason for my assertion.
I made the assertion of 'a little bit of clean up' because you stated, "Faith and Repentance are better described in terms of character, ...". (I even bolded it in my original)

That seems to imply a bit of a previous clean up in order to have faith and repentance ...Scripture says otherwise...

Romans 4:5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
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