Hyper grace
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Not sure where you learned Greek, but in neither passage in John does "convict" mean "convince" in the original Greek. (Please put the passage you are referring to in your post, so people don't have to go wading back through multiple pages to find the reference!) Since they are the same word in both cases, just different tenses, I will use both!
"Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?" John 8:46 ESV
"τίς ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐλέγχει με περὶ ἁμαρτίας; εἰ ἀλήθειαν λέγω, διὰ τί ὑμεῖς οὐ πιστεύετέ μοι;" John 8:46 Greek
"And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:" John 16:8 ESV
"καὶ ἐλθὼν ἐκεῖνος ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ περὶ κρίσεως·" John 16:8 Greek
ἐλέγχει - elegchei - Present Indicative Active - to convict, to prove, to convince WITH PROOF
ἐλέγξει - elegzei - Future Indicative Active - to expose, to cross-examine for the purpose of refuting an opponent, especially used of legal proceedings.
I think using the word "convince" is far too mild for the work the Holy Spirit does in the hearts and minds of unbelievers. In fact, the Holy Spirit "legally" proves that we are sinners, in need of a Saviour. I know God hit me between the eyes over and over to convict me of my sin, in order that I might repent and turn to God.
While I have not read all the posts, at this point, I feel like I am seeing the Holy Spirit as "nice guy" who basically hopes that we might repent and and be "convinced" to turn from our sins.
I do not feel that God does that. Now it may be in some cases, hearts are very soft, and all they need is a bit of "convincing" to repent and turn to God. But the Greek is certainly not saying that. It is saying it convicts, proves, exposes and refutes the opponent (the adversary!) that we might believe and be saved.
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Religious people of Jesus' day said that He was teaching evil stuff too. You need to listen to what the person is actually saying and not what "others" are saying. I have heard people say all kinds of things about what grace teachers are saying and it astounds me as I have listened to over a thousand messages and never heard what they "accuse" them say.
Do yourself a favor and listen to his whole talk. As I said when I first heard it my brain said "heresy" but the Holy Spirit showed me the truth and the real gospel of grace is truly beautiful. It reveals the greatness of our loving Lord and what He has done for us. It's awesome!!!
Do yourself a favor and listen to his whole talk. As I said when I first heard it my brain said "heresy" but the Holy Spirit showed me the truth and the real gospel of grace is truly beautiful. It reveals the greatness of our loving Lord and what He has done for us. It's awesome!!!
I agree with all that you said. I did not put in the scripture reference because I thought it is taught everywhere in Christian circles. I should have put the reference in.
What happens IMO is that we get "hammered" with statements like the Holy Spirit convicts you of your sin. If a statement is said enough times it's like it has to be true because everyone says it is. This statement by itself is not complete or entirely accurate as the scripture actually says that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin because they do not believe in Jesus. We are not of the world when we are believers. There is no place in the New testament where it says that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sin. He convicts/convinces the believer of righteousness. We need to let the scriptures say what they are saying.
Never take someone else's medicine!
Whether we use the term convict, convinces, or proves is all great with me. I love them all!
The Holy Spirit is not hoping that us believers turn from sins. He really wants us to turn to God! Sin has been taken care of in Christ. Why are we Christians so sin-conscious when we should be Christ-conscious! The Blood of our Lord Jesus speaks of better things! Hebrews 10:2 says "...having once been cleansed would no longer have had consciousness of sins." it is saying here in Hebrews that if the old system worked in regard to taking away sins then they would have a cleansed conscious.
In 2 peter 1:9 says that "For he who lacks these qualities ( as outlined in verses 5-7 ) is blind and short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins."
The Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us and shows us who we really are in Christ. 2 Corth 3:18 shows how the Spirit transforms us - as we look at Jesus we are changed into His image by the SPIRIT.
What happens IMO is that we get "hammered" with statements like the Holy Spirit convicts you of your sin. If a statement is said enough times it's like it has to be true because everyone says it is. This statement by itself is not complete or entirely accurate as the scripture actually says that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin because they do not believe in Jesus. We are not of the world when we are believers. There is no place in the New testament where it says that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sin. He convicts/convinces the believer of righteousness. We need to let the scriptures say what they are saying.
Never take someone else's medicine!
Whether we use the term convict, convinces, or proves is all great with me. I love them all!
The Holy Spirit is not hoping that us believers turn from sins. He really wants us to turn to God! Sin has been taken care of in Christ. Why are we Christians so sin-conscious when we should be Christ-conscious! The Blood of our Lord Jesus speaks of better things! Hebrews 10:2 says "...having once been cleansed would no longer have had consciousness of sins." it is saying here in Hebrews that if the old system worked in regard to taking away sins then they would have a cleansed conscious.
In 2 peter 1:9 says that "For he who lacks these qualities ( as outlined in verses 5-7 ) is blind and short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins."
The Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us and shows us who we really are in Christ. 2 Corth 3:18 shows how the Spirit transforms us - as we look at Jesus we are changed into His image by the SPIRIT.
Everything you quoted here is 100% true and can be backed up with scripture! We have been taught differently on some things by our religious up-bringing but again Jesus says that we make the word of God of no effect because of our traditions.
But I will play with just one of your quotes that you posted saying that it is error. Namely ; " The moment we enter into Christ at salvation, our old self is obliterated."
Perhaps its the word obliterated that is throwing you off? But a quick look at the dictionary and it is obvious that it can't be that. Also I'm pretty sure to be crucified means that you die...
romans 6:6 " knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him"
Col 3:3 " For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."
Died and crucified are in step with the meaning of obliterated.
But I will play with just one of your quotes that you posted saying that it is error. Namely ; " The moment we enter into Christ at salvation, our old self is obliterated."
Perhaps its the word obliterated that is throwing you off? But a quick look at the dictionary and it is obvious that it can't be that. Also I'm pretty sure to be crucified means that you die...
romans 6:6 " knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him"
Col 3:3 " For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."
Died and crucified are in step with the meaning of obliterated.
I agree that is what cults do, in fact all truth comes this way. If I was an atheist and did not believe in creation by God you would be telling me to believe what God has to say about creation. I would have to unlearn what I believed in order to believe the truth of creation. Many times we have to unlearn things to choose what is true. it's called "repent" - change your mind which is the actual meaning in the original greek language as we talked about before.
Jesus' teachings was a cult to the Pharisees which was the religious world that our Lord was in when He came. Search the scriptures.
Jesus' teachings was a cult to the Pharisees which was the religious world that our Lord was in when He came. Search the scriptures.
Go to the website below and type in the search area what you want to search out.
Escape to Reality
My poor fingers would get tired with all that typing..lol
Just check it out for yourself.
Escape to Reality
My poor fingers would get tired with all that typing..lol
Just check it out for yourself.
I'm not sure where hyper-grace came from other then it is blblical.
Romans 5:20 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The word in the greek for "much more abound" is huperperisseuō which is where we get our English word HYPER ( huper part of the word in greek )
It is truly hyper-grace that Christ bought for us with His own Blood. People that say hyper-grace in a derogatory way are not using wisdom.
Romans 5:20 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The word in the greek for "much more abound" is huperperisseuō which is where we get our English word HYPER ( huper part of the word in greek )
It is truly hyper-grace that Christ bought for us with His own Blood. People that say hyper-grace in a derogatory way are not using wisdom.
Woe! Not so much! In fact, we need to repent in order to come to God. And that means being convicted or our sins. Sin is not a pretty thing, that we just say "Yep, now I am saved." No! Sin means we have to really look at our lives, and see what God wants us to turn from. In other words, when we are justified by faith, we have also gone through the difficult process of hearing God and recognizing the evil that has been in our hearts. So yes, conviction should ALWAYS be hard. But joy comes in the morning. Justification is the first stage of salvation.
Transformation is the SECOND stage of salvation. God does not just instantly transform us the moment we are saved. Instead, the Holy Spirit works on us, slowly, changing us for his glory. Transformation is found in two verses in the Bible - 2 Cor. 3:18 and Romans 12:2. In both cases, the word μεταμορφοῦσθε or metamorphousthe, is in the passive tense, meaning it is something God does to us.
The final stage is of course, glorification, which will happen on the final day when we see Christ face to face!
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears[a]we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2
I fear I am hearing a bit of another gospel here! The Holy Spirit does not "convince" us we are righteous. In fact, he convicts us of sin! You have totally left sin out of the equation, and that is simply not the gospel.
I want to add someone said something about sin not being what Jesus came to save us from. That is just so unbiblical, it is beyond comprehension!
Even the name of Jesus - which is Joshua or Yeshua means "salvation or deliverance" in the Hebrew.
"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:21.
This is the gospel! It is how Jesus came and died in our place on the cross, for our sins. The first sacrifice was in Genesis 4, by Abel. Offerings and sacrifices continued down through the Bible until Christ became the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
"11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:11-1
Any other gospel, especially one which fails to acknowledge sin as the reason Jesus came to die on the cross is truly "another gospel."
Transformation is the SECOND stage of salvation. God does not just instantly transform us the moment we are saved. Instead, the Holy Spirit works on us, slowly, changing us for his glory. Transformation is found in two verses in the Bible - 2 Cor. 3:18 and Romans 12:2. In both cases, the word μεταμορφοῦσθε or metamorphousthe, is in the passive tense, meaning it is something God does to us.
The final stage is of course, glorification, which will happen on the final day when we see Christ face to face!
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears[a]we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2
I fear I am hearing a bit of another gospel here! The Holy Spirit does not "convince" us we are righteous. In fact, he convicts us of sin! You have totally left sin out of the equation, and that is simply not the gospel.
I want to add someone said something about sin not being what Jesus came to save us from. That is just so unbiblical, it is beyond comprehension!
Even the name of Jesus - which is Joshua or Yeshua means "salvation or deliverance" in the Hebrew.
"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:21.
This is the gospel! It is how Jesus came and died in our place on the cross, for our sins. The first sacrifice was in Genesis 4, by Abel. Offerings and sacrifices continued down through the Bible until Christ became the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
"11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:11-1
Any other gospel, especially one which fails to acknowledge sin as the reason Jesus came to die on the cross is truly "another gospel."
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Jesus did save us from our sins! It's all Him and what He has done for us! I never heard anyone say that Jesus didn't die for our sins. I don't understand where this came from???
ok, if you want to use the word convict other then convince which as you showed they mean the same thing in the original greek. So, the Holy Spirit "convicts" us believers of righteousness because Jesus went to our Father! Whether you use the word convict or convince or prove is irrelevant. The word "convict" has no special meaning to it that is different from convince.
The truth still stands that no where does it say that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin. I know people say it in church every day but that doesn't make it true. I could tell people to say that I am a woman but that would never change the truth..lol Where is the proof of me being a woman as everyone says? There is none! I'm being silly here..forgive me for playin' with ya. It's the man in me..lol
We as believers will never be any more righteous then we are now as we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We will never be any more holy then we are now in Christ. That's why we are called 'saints". There is a transformation as you outlined beautifully in 2 cor 3:18 and in Romans 12:2.
This outward transformation is the "fruit" of your born again recreated inner man or also called the new creation in Christ. Transformation is an outward manifestation of who we are in Christ in our inner man. You are with the Spirit and with the renewing of the mind simply "being" who you really are in Christ.
It's glorious!
ok, if you want to use the word convict other then convince which as you showed they mean the same thing in the original greek. So, the Holy Spirit "convicts" us believers of righteousness because Jesus went to our Father! Whether you use the word convict or convince or prove is irrelevant. The word "convict" has no special meaning to it that is different from convince.
The truth still stands that no where does it say that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin. I know people say it in church every day but that doesn't make it true. I could tell people to say that I am a woman but that would never change the truth..lol Where is the proof of me being a woman as everyone says? There is none! I'm being silly here..forgive me for playin' with ya. It's the man in me..lol
We as believers will never be any more righteous then we are now as we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We will never be any more holy then we are now in Christ. That's why we are called 'saints". There is a transformation as you outlined beautifully in 2 cor 3:18 and in Romans 12:2.
This outward transformation is the "fruit" of your born again recreated inner man or also called the new creation in Christ. Transformation is an outward manifestation of who we are in Christ in our inner man. You are with the Spirit and with the renewing of the mind simply "being" who you really are in Christ.
It's glorious!