Hyper grace

[ladylynn]

I think that unbelievers do have power to say no to sin.. otherwise they'd all be doing every known sin, and they are not. The same with any of us before we each got saved.

It's possible that the apostle Paul would come into the category too, using the law to refrain from sins, but not having satisfactory results until he got saved.

Right, we humans would not have satisfactory results until we have Jesus. We humans have a sense of right and wrong. We are raised and trained and have a conscience but even when we do not DO awful things like murder or rape or steal., those things are in our hearts., we just don't know nor would we realize or admit our capacity in our sinful nature that we could or would do such things but each one of us humans has a nature that is able to do so because it is IN our nature.,it is who we are. In people's anger they have murdered.,and done all kinds of sin.

A man can be morally taught and in his pride believe it is his own goodness but the Bible makes it clear that allll our righteousness's without the new nature Christ gives; is all but filthy rags. Our intentions behind doing right is all selfish., our soul intention for doing anything is self driven., self edifying. The Bible says our throats are open graves., we are full of evil and dead mans bones. We are very much a mess until Jesus saves us.

So even when a human who is unsaved does the right thing... it counts for nothing when it comes to being good in God's sight. That person could be a moral person, a giving, kind and generous person., someone who is faithful to his wife, caring of his children., supporting of his friends and by the world standards someone who is worthy of a memorial to and for who he was after he dies. But in God's sight he is full of dead mans bones and going to hell.

When an unsaved man does good it is not because he is good. The law is good but it has NO power to make anyone good.

The law is perfect but it has NO power to make anyone perfect. Unsaved people need Jesus to deliver them and give then a new nature. And then that person can see the truth and begin to learn to walk in it. His motives are changing and his eyes are open to just how lost he was and just how evil his heart was. And it draws him all the more to Jesus to keep on changing him from the inside out. To work 'out' his salvation. What God put in begins to work it's way out of us each day as we see the truth. And grace is there to keep us from losing hope when we see how great a sinner we were and how much Jesus did for people as horrid as us. We fall on our knees and thank God for His marvelous unmerited love. We wonder how could He love us?? But He does and wants us to walk in the freedom of beloved sons. Then He even calls us righteous., forgiven and gives us the gift of no condemnation.

 

[ladylynn]

.
True, but much too simplistic to express all truth. Christ obviously does see our sin. Look at what he says to the congregations in Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatira, Laodicea in Revelation - "I hold against you".

I KNOW!! It seems too hard to believe doesn't it!? It just seems like it should be harder than that!
What takes things down to a very understandable equation for me HeRose is that whenever man gets the credit, God is not glorified. The message of grace is Jesus did it all., not Jesus plus a bit of us., but Jesus did all of it. He not only saved us., but He sanctifies us. The HolySpirit comes along side and we are now in a position to learn from Him. The people in those churches were self righteous and walking out life carnally. The biggest sin humans have is pride. Jesus was hardest on the self righteous pharisees who walked in their own pride using God before the people as if God was pleased with them.

Jesus had the harshest words for the self righteous pharisees not the guilty sinners. Jesus reached out to the sinners who cried out to Him. He said that He came for sinners NOT the righteous. When you look at the Bible in light of this truth many things become much clearer. We were totally sold out to sin and our previous walk before Jesus.,our old habits of the flesh are evil without Jesus to show us how to live out His righteousness. The more we know this the less we are able to walk in self deception and want to walk in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ.

When we know we need Him so much our hearts are growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. The more we see our need and dependence on Jesus the more pleased the Father is. When we magnify the Son the Father is pleased.

If you look at those churches and study out what was going on., you will see many were carnal churches. Also, when you look at Rev. there are many hidden meanings that need to be studied out for instance what time table in the end times are we looking at?

And also, in all our studies we have to go forward knowing that if a man has received Jesus Christ as Savior during this age of grace., the Bible says he is sealed until the day of redemption. The believers who are alive now are the bride of Christ awaiting Christs return. Jesus died for the church. There is NO condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. All must be filtered through the Cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly...you've spoken to the entire argument, and the simplicity of it flies right over James' wee head.

I honestly do not get it, The only people who need rom 7 to be pre-salvation are sinless perfectionists, and some serious legalistic people,, From what I have seen is James is neither of these two. So I do not understand his hang-up, other than pride.. (maybe he was one at one time and can't break it)..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I KNOW!! It seems too hard to believe doesn't it!? It just seems like it should be harder than that!
What takes things down to a very understandable equation for me HeRose is that whenever man gets the credit, God is not glorified. The message of grace is Jesus did it all., not Jesus plus a bit of us., but Jesus did all of it. He not only saved us., but He sanctifies us. The HolySpirit comes along side and we are now in a position to learn from Him. The people in those churches were self righteous and walking out life carnally. The biggest sin humans have is pride. Jesus was hardest on the self righteous pharisees who walked in their own pride using God before the people as if God was pleased with them.

Jesus had the harshest words for the self righteous pharisees not the guilty sinners. Jesus reached out to the sinners who cried out to Him. He said that He came for sinners NOT the righteous. When you look at the Bible in light of this truth many things become much clearer. We were totally sold out to sin and our previous walk before Jesus.,our old habits of the flesh are evil without Jesus to show us how to live out His righteousness. The more we know this the less we are able to walk in self deception and want to walk in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ.

When we know we need Him so much our hearts are growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. The more we see our need and dependence on Jesus the more pleased the Father is. When we magnify the Son the Father is pleased.

If you look at those churches and study out what was going on., you will see many were carnal churches. Also, when you look at Rev. there are many hidden meanings that need to be studied out for instance what time table in the end times are we looking at?

And also, in all our studies we have to go forward knowing that if a man has received Jesus Christ as Savior during this age of grace., the Bible says he is sealed until the day of redemption. The believers who are alive now are the bride of Christ awaiting Christs return. Jesus died for the church. There is NO condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. All must be filtered through the Cross.

Christ did everything for our justification and initial sanctification, but to deny that we are required to preserve that sanctification is just sticking one's head in the sand. Many bible verse witness of this fact.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ did everything for our justification and initial sanctification, but to deny that we are required to preserve that sanctification is just sticking one's head in the sand. Many bible verse witness of this fact.

Yet the author of Hebrews states he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification is God working in us.. Yes, we have to have faith to let him work. and not remain kids, but it is still his work.

A baby Christian who has been stuck in the cradle is just as much as a Christian as an adult super mature Christian such as paul when he died (who even himself stated he did not make it)

The rewards in heaven will be fat greater for people like Paul, and few for the babe in Christ. but heaven is still assured..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yet the author of Hebrews states he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification is God working in us.. Yes, we have to have faith to let him work. and not remain kids, but it is still his work.

A baby Christian who has been stuck in the cradle is just as much as a Christian as an adult super mature Christian such as paul when he died (who even himself stated he did not make it)

The rewards in heaven will be fat greater for people like Paul, and few for the babe in Christ. but heaven is still assured..

Our spirit has been perfected forever. The mechanism for salvation has been perfected forever. Forgiveness is guaranteed forever. But we ourselves are not yet perfected. And those who rebel and don't follow through with the program, won't be.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....however there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies )our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ( this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..= done deal

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' ( perfect passive )



Sanctification to our "religious minds" could mean a lot of different things to different people as it depends on the religious beliefs formulated from our backgrounds....like..no smoking..no drinking..no going to church..no reading your bible every day..no praying for an hour each day.....no going to a movie...reading a newspaper...no being a servant of God...no doing "what I don't do.."..etc

 

[Euphemia]

God assures us that our born again spirits are pure and holy and cannot sin. I am so glad that my behaviour doesn't negate my righteous standing in Christ! If that were so, then no one can see the Kingdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Our spirit has been perfected forever. The mechanism for salvation has been perfected forever. Forgiveness is guaranteed forever. But we ourselves are not yet perfected. And those who rebel and don't follow through with the program, won't be.

The author of Hebrews said we are perfected forever as we are being sanctified.

You say otherwise, why is this (I am just asking)

Follow through with the program? So we have to earn salvation? Do you not see this is what you are saying (I am sure you do not believe this, but that's what your saying)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God assures us that our born again spirits are pure and holy and cannot sin. I am so glad that my behaviour doesn't negate my righteous standing in Christ! If that were so, then no one can see the Kingdom.

Amen, the spirit can not sin, The flesh can. That's why we have to crucify the flesh every day by walking in step with the spirit. Sadly, as paul noted. We do not always walk in step. we stumble and fall as our flesh in a moment of weakness steps in and wins a battle

 

[ladylynn]

Christ did everything for our justification and initial sanctification, but to deny that we are required to preserve that sanctification is just sticking one's head in the sand. Many bible verse witness of this fact.

HeRose, there is MORE. I never said -and no one else here who is learning about grace would say we stick our heads in the sand. The Bible admonishes us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. It tells us to be doers of the word., it tells us to work OUT our salvation in all seriousness., not work FOR but to work OUT what Jesus has put in us.

For instance., we have all the fruits of the spirit in us, He has already given us the spirit of power and love and a sound mind. We (by faith) work it out. Without faith we can do nothing. We are co laborers with Christ in His work here. We walk in the JOY of our salvation as we see Jesus. Our goal is not to get the victory., we HAVE the victory already IN Christ. We need to walk IT out by faith. He has already given us everything. He IS our sanctification. The process is not to make those good things ourselves but to work those things out that Jesus has already put in us and freely given us when we got saved.

The Bible says He has given us alllll things pertaining to life and godliness. Learning to see by faith is our mission. Heb.11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And I love the way the Amplified Bible puts it; NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation the title deed) of the things we hope for, being the proof of things we do not see and the conviction of their reality (faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses).

Sanctification is not a job we do ourselves. Read the Bible verses that talk about our sanctification. Don't be afraid to look at it in this light just because other people have interpreted sanctification as a lone walk of dos and don'ts. When we walk in grace we are sanctified and set apart. You can't have one without the other.

1 Cor.1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 31. that, just as it is written., LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.

I see clearly in so many scriptures that Jesus must get all the credit and all the glory. And we are soooooooooooo JOYFUL to be able to do that IN Him and for Him. To magnify Jesus is what we are to do and in doing that we end up fulfilling the new covenant. And then when we say it's all because of Jesus, we are not talking in false humility but we know it in our hearts that without Him we could do nothing.

 

[eternallife7]

I think what people are having a hard time understanding is the while there is a difference between unbelievers and believers there is also a difference between a believer who walks in the light and a believer who doesn't. Peter talks about judgement beginning first at the house of God. If all believers walked the same why would there be any need for this judgement?

 

[ladylynn]

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....however there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies )our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ( this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..= done deal

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' ( perfect passive )



Sanctification to our "religious minds" could mean a lot of different things to different people as it depends on the religious beliefs formulated from our backgrounds....like..no smoking..no drinking..no going to church..no reading your bible every day..no praying for an hour each day.....no going to a movie...reading a newspaper...no being a servant of God...no doing "what I don't do.."..etc

Amen., Amen., I see we have been reading the same Bible brother!! "Isn't the love of Jesus something wonderful...."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The author of Hebrews said we are perfected forever as we are being sanctified.

You say otherwise, why is this (I am just asking)

Follow through with the program? So we have to earn salvation? Do you not see this is what you are saying (I am sure you do not believe this, but that's what your saying)

Participating in salvation is not earning it. The earning part is done. Participating in salvation is preserving the unearned gift that has been given to us.

 

[ladylynn]

I think what people are having a hard time understanding is the while there is a difference between unbelievers and believers there is also a difference between a believer who walks in the light and a believer who doesn't. Peter talks about judgement beginning first at the house of God. If all believers walked the same why would there be any need for this judgement?

Again., this is where is so important to know who we are in Christ. Believers are children of the light., they are not children of the night. And when that verse about judgment beginning in the house of the Lord...it is referring to the Jewish synagogues. Jesus said so Himself when He cast out the money changers and said "do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise"

The believer in the new covenant has been forgiven and judged already in the body of Jesus on the cross.
So important to know this because otherwise we mix up what is being said to the Jews and what is being said to the church. We are under the new covenant of grace and there is no fear of the bride being judged again. We can only be judged once and Jesus paid for alll our sin and paid for all God's judgment upon us. All His wrath fell upon Jesus at the cross on our behalf and for anyone else who receives Jesus, they too become the bride of Christ.

 

[eternallife7]

Again., this is where is so important to know who we are in Christ. Believers are children of the light., they are not children of the night. And when that verse about judgment beginning in the house of the Lord...it is referring to the Jewish synagogues. Jesus said so Himself when He cast out the money changers and said "do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise"

The believer in the new covenant has been forgiven and judged already in the body of Jesus on the cross.
So important to know this because otherwise we mix up what is being said to the Jews and what is being said to the church. We are under the new covenant of grace and there is no fear of the bride being judged again. We can only be judged once and Jesus paid for alll our sin and paid for all God's judgment upon us. All His wrath fell upon Jesus at the cross.

In the Greek God uses different adjectives to discribe His Church. It is probably too deep of a subject for a thread on this website.

 

[ladylynn]

In the Greek God uses different adjectives to discribe His Church. It is probably too deep of a subject for a thread on this website.

I'm sure that is true and the word 'church' is defined in many ways in the Bible. But because I know that the bride is already forgiven and set apart she is not going to be judged. I feel it is so important to have some major truths down sort of like a frame work for all other scripture to go through. If we read something that says Jesus was not God., we can know for a fact that is false because the Bible is clear. And no matter how fancy the words are written to the contrary., we do not have to be moved in this matter. Jesus is God.

And so it is with many scriptures that provide a frame work for us that the HolySpirit gives us to screen through other translations or meanings. So for instance because I know Jesus has completely forgive us and our sins are gone as far as the east is from the west., He remembers them no more., and because we are the righteousness of God IN Christ.... we are not under judgment or condemnation any longer. I can know that the verse you quoted is not for the church under grace. The bride.

I am so very thankful for these major truths because they can keep us when so many false doctrines come our way and try to deceive us or even if they come to take away our confidence or our joy we must not allow that since they were bought and paid for 'for' us by Jesus.

 

[Grace777x70]

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is ion us. There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is ion us. There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

We are sanctified by the spirit, and must sanctify ourselves so as to not grieve the spirit.

 

[james57]

Yes he justified it ( supporting murder) because he thought he was defending the true faith

How could he justify breaking the tenth commandment. Please explain

Dee dee dum
I don't know, its nearly as bad as saying paul the Pharisee wouldn't admit to lust so he must have been speaking as a christian
Some people just haven't got a clue