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"In addition, the Old Covenant is no longer in effect, although there are underlying spiritual and moral principles that the Christian can discern through reading with the Holy Spirit."
Yes like you said, spiritual and moral principles. OT should not be seen as law to follow for salvation. It is guidelines to follow to please God and to show our love towards Him.
The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ירה, which in the hif'il conjugation means "to guide/teach" The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression
The reason sin matters is because sin interrupt one's communion with God. It does not interrupt one's union with Christ, but it interrupts one's communion with God. If a person is in sin, he is not at peace because the communion is interrupted. This is a painful experience because the person shares a vital connection with Jesus Christ.
As per the bible sin is disobedience, rebellion, breaking the law. The Torah has good guidelines to have that special communion with God and the guidelines not to have that interruption.
I am assuming you have a works oriented view of salvation and you claim the believer can lose his salvation. This is typical of Judaizers. I would assert that you can never show true love to God with that mentality. If you are subject to condemnation from God, then you only practice obedience out of fear. Your faith is not much better than a Muslim, who obeys his pagan god Allah due to fear. I know God won't give up on me, so I am not afraid of losing salvation, and I render my obedience in love, and not out of fear.
you are not reading my posts, I have said so many times it is not about works or keeping the law for salvation, but out of love. People could not keep the law for salvation before Jesus and they cannot keep it now for salvation because of Jesus.
In accepting Jesus, we turn from our old wicked ways, like John the Baptist said "produce fruit in keeping with repentance"
so our salvation has a result of good fruit/works, not the other way around. That is why the NT is so full of still keeping the commandments.
Joh 14:21 The person who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I, too, will love him and reveal myself to him."
How do you show true love to God if it is not the above verse.
Fear is a good initial motivation, but it's not a very mature one. It's especially good for a non-believer as he is under the wrath and condemnation of God. Scripture informs me, though, that the believer won't experience condemnation (Romans 8:1, John 5:24) and that I already have eternal life.
I agree with the above.
But in short, sin matters because it interrupts the communion with God, but it does not destroy the union with Jesus Christ. I don't expect works oriented people to believe that though. I don't think most of them really know Christ anyways.
The thing with sin and still being saved is that if a true believer does sin and repent he will be forgiven, but someone that willingly choose to do a sin knowing there is grace for forgiveness, I question if that is true faith, cause the spirit leads you to strive for righteousness and holiness.
The thing is how do you know your faith is true faith and not just giving the correct answer.
People growing up in a religious homes learn their children from a young age, who is your savior? Jesus, in who do we believe? Jesus, so it is becoming an correct answer. True faith do change your actions.
Why did he say the road is narrow and only a few will find it, if it is just about saying I believe in Jesus if nothing else matter.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
don't you think people that get to the point of casting devils and do wonderful works, actually has a strong believe in who and what they do, but still it is not enough. He is looking for that personal relationship in love and obedience.
anyway I am done know with this post, cause I believe you are reading quite a bit into the text when it comes to keeping the guidelines out of love and taking out of scripture what suits your theology.
Yes like you said, spiritual and moral principles. OT should not be seen as law to follow for salvation. It is guidelines to follow to please God and to show our love towards Him.
The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ירה, which in the hif'il conjugation means "to guide/teach" The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression
The reason sin matters is because sin interrupt one's communion with God. It does not interrupt one's union with Christ, but it interrupts one's communion with God. If a person is in sin, he is not at peace because the communion is interrupted. This is a painful experience because the person shares a vital connection with Jesus Christ.
As per the bible sin is disobedience, rebellion, breaking the law. The Torah has good guidelines to have that special communion with God and the guidelines not to have that interruption.
I am assuming you have a works oriented view of salvation and you claim the believer can lose his salvation. This is typical of Judaizers. I would assert that you can never show true love to God with that mentality. If you are subject to condemnation from God, then you only practice obedience out of fear. Your faith is not much better than a Muslim, who obeys his pagan god Allah due to fear. I know God won't give up on me, so I am not afraid of losing salvation, and I render my obedience in love, and not out of fear.
you are not reading my posts, I have said so many times it is not about works or keeping the law for salvation, but out of love. People could not keep the law for salvation before Jesus and they cannot keep it now for salvation because of Jesus.
In accepting Jesus, we turn from our old wicked ways, like John the Baptist said "produce fruit in keeping with repentance"
so our salvation has a result of good fruit/works, not the other way around. That is why the NT is so full of still keeping the commandments.
Joh 14:21 The person who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I, too, will love him and reveal myself to him."
How do you show true love to God if it is not the above verse.
Fear is a good initial motivation, but it's not a very mature one. It's especially good for a non-believer as he is under the wrath and condemnation of God. Scripture informs me, though, that the believer won't experience condemnation (Romans 8:1, John 5:24) and that I already have eternal life.
I agree with the above.
But in short, sin matters because it interrupts the communion with God, but it does not destroy the union with Jesus Christ. I don't expect works oriented people to believe that though. I don't think most of them really know Christ anyways.
The thing with sin and still being saved is that if a true believer does sin and repent he will be forgiven, but someone that willingly choose to do a sin knowing there is grace for forgiveness, I question if that is true faith, cause the spirit leads you to strive for righteousness and holiness.
The thing is how do you know your faith is true faith and not just giving the correct answer.
People growing up in a religious homes learn their children from a young age, who is your savior? Jesus, in who do we believe? Jesus, so it is becoming an correct answer. True faith do change your actions.
Why did he say the road is narrow and only a few will find it, if it is just about saying I believe in Jesus if nothing else matter.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
don't you think people that get to the point of casting devils and do wonderful works, actually has a strong believe in who and what they do, but still it is not enough. He is looking for that personal relationship in love and obedience.
anyway I am done know with this post, cause I believe you are reading quite a bit into the text when it comes to keeping the guidelines out of love and taking out of scripture what suits your theology.
S
I have clearly stated that Christians follow the commandments that apply to THEM. The Torah doesn't apply to THEM but applies to ancient Israel. It may contain spiritual and moral principles that are applicable, but the specific applications to the ancient nation of Israel don't apply.
The Torah includes moral laws. Violating an inapplicable commandment within the Torah is not a sin. Animal sacrifices are not applicable anymore, for example, and neither are the Sabbaths, festivals, or clean/unclean meat laws. Neither is physical circumcision. So, you cannot define sin by stating that it is the transgression of the law, because the entire Torah is not applicable anymore. There are items within it which are moral absolutes which still apply, but the Torah itself is obsolete and invalid. I listed Scriptures to support this position in the previous post.
Using I John 3:4 in this manner is not correct, as there are items within the Torah which do not apply anymore. Physical circumcision and animal sacrifices are very obvious. Sabbath, Holy Days, and clean/unclean meats are three more that are no longer applicable, regardless of what Judaizers claim.
No one says that true faith doesn't manifest itself in actions. You are not the fruit inspector, though. God is. True faith does make a difference in one's life. Judaizers think they are the fruit inspectors, and that they understand God's holiness better than anyone else. They are actually using a pretty poor reflection of God's holiness, the Torah, as the standard, when Jesus Christ is the real standard. The Torah was only a faint glimmer of the holiness of God; Jesus Christ eclipses it like the bright burning sun eclipses a candlestick.
By the way, I know the whole "I never knew you" assertion. It's part of what the Armstrongites used to deceive people into their theology. Judaizers of all stripes use the same sort of claims. Quote Rev 12:9 now and claim that I'm deceived......
Like my heretical teacher of the past, Herbert Armstrong, you think you've been appointed to inspect everyone else's fruit and to enlighten the rest of the world on true Christianity. You guys think the rest of Christianity was just waiting around for you to show up and enlighten us.
The Torah includes moral laws. Violating an inapplicable commandment within the Torah is not a sin. Animal sacrifices are not applicable anymore, for example, and neither are the Sabbaths, festivals, or clean/unclean meat laws. Neither is physical circumcision. So, you cannot define sin by stating that it is the transgression of the law, because the entire Torah is not applicable anymore. There are items within it which are moral absolutes which still apply, but the Torah itself is obsolete and invalid. I listed Scriptures to support this position in the previous post.
Using I John 3:4 in this manner is not correct, as there are items within the Torah which do not apply anymore. Physical circumcision and animal sacrifices are very obvious. Sabbath, Holy Days, and clean/unclean meats are three more that are no longer applicable, regardless of what Judaizers claim.
No one says that true faith doesn't manifest itself in actions. You are not the fruit inspector, though. God is. True faith does make a difference in one's life. Judaizers think they are the fruit inspectors, and that they understand God's holiness better than anyone else. They are actually using a pretty poor reflection of God's holiness, the Torah, as the standard, when Jesus Christ is the real standard. The Torah was only a faint glimmer of the holiness of God; Jesus Christ eclipses it like the bright burning sun eclipses a candlestick.
By the way, I know the whole "I never knew you" assertion. It's part of what the Armstrongites used to deceive people into their theology. Judaizers of all stripes use the same sort of claims. Quote Rev 12:9 now and claim that I'm deceived......
Like my heretical teacher of the past, Herbert Armstrong, you think you've been appointed to inspect everyone else's fruit and to enlighten the rest of the world on true Christianity. You guys think the rest of Christianity was just waiting around for you to show up and enlighten us.
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S
There's a very good article on the Hebrew Roots Movement revealing its significant issues and the dangerousness of their teachings in the Spring 2016 episode of Proclamation! magazine:
Proclamation 2016 Spring
Click on the link above..to the left there is a link that says "Download PDF Version".
Pages 3-15 are pertinent to Hebrew Roots Movement and related topics.
As I have said on other threads, I have no issues with individuals who observe the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws, provided they do not accuse non-observant Christians of being in sin, either knowingly or in ignorance. However, many of them do this. In addition, many of them portray other Christians as being ignorant, and exalt their own knowledge of Scripture, while holding fallacies and heresies themselves. They are modern day Judaizers (although I don't really like this word as some Messianic Jews may find it offensive to be identified with Judaizers...wish we had a different word to describe this heresy).
I sympathize particularly with the situation of Messianic Jews who want to continue observing elements of their faith without harboring such attitudes toward others. The Roman Catholic Church, and some Protestants, have treated such individuals with a lack of respect in the past. So, this situation is equally grievous.
Anyways this article is particularly good and I suggest reading it to become aware of the fallacies this group teaches.
Proclamation 2016 Spring
Click on the link above..to the left there is a link that says "Download PDF Version".
Pages 3-15 are pertinent to Hebrew Roots Movement and related topics.
As I have said on other threads, I have no issues with individuals who observe the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws, provided they do not accuse non-observant Christians of being in sin, either knowingly or in ignorance. However, many of them do this. In addition, many of them portray other Christians as being ignorant, and exalt their own knowledge of Scripture, while holding fallacies and heresies themselves. They are modern day Judaizers (although I don't really like this word as some Messianic Jews may find it offensive to be identified with Judaizers...wish we had a different word to describe this heresy).
I sympathize particularly with the situation of Messianic Jews who want to continue observing elements of their faith without harboring such attitudes toward others. The Roman Catholic Church, and some Protestants, have treated such individuals with a lack of respect in the past. So, this situation is equally grievous.
Anyways this article is particularly good and I suggest reading it to become aware of the fallacies this group teaches.
not sure about sda, but you should know what your former church taught.
I asked you to prove your alligations but you failed to, so here it is for everyone.
you know these quotes but lied to the forum knowing it was false goship.
"Who is the real author of our sins? The devil is the author of them,
even as Christ is the author of our salvation. Jesus took our guilt
—our blame—our sins—upon Himself as an innocent substitutionary sacrifice.
Is it justice for Christ to bear guilt that is not His, while the devil goes off scot-free?
Do you not suppose God’s great plan will finally work full justice by placing that
original blame and guilt right where it belongs?
But justice certainly demands that God place right back on the head of the devil
his guilt—not our guilt, but his own guilt—for leading us into sin. We were guilty,
too—and our guilt Christ bore—yet all our sins belong right back on the devil as
his own guilt!
The Azazel goat carries away the sins of all the people already forgiven. These sins
already were fully paid for by Christ’s substitute sacrifice, symbolized by the killing
of the innocent goat before those same sins were finally laid on the live goat.
They had been previously paid for by the death of the slain goat.
The devil is the real author of all sin. Can we, then, be finally made at one with God,
as long as this instigator of sin is with us? Can we not see he must first be driven away? "
-
this quote above that sparkman should know , its from his old former church,
nowhere does it say that they believe satan is our sin bearer.
it says Jesus took our guilt—our blame—our sins—upon Himself
sparkman continues to repeat lies and false slander againest his former church,
not sure why he does this, but I bet it is not good for his health or salavation.
-
continued quote from - The Day of Atonement, or the Fast
And there would not be justice with God unless his own guilt in our sins were placed right
back on his head? Is it justice for Christ to bear the devil’s guilt, as well as our own guilt,
for our sins?
The driving away of the second live goat shows the final atonement, by placing the sins
on their author where they belong, and the complete removal of the sins and their author
from the presence of God and His people—and thus the complete deliverance of the
people from the power of Satan.
after laying both his hands on the live goat, Azazel, Aaron had to wash and cleanse
himself before coming in contact with the people. So, too, the “fit man” also had to
wash his clothes and bathe himself after coming in contact with the Azazel goat,
before he came into the presence of the people. The symbolism is certainly that
of having come in contact with the devil!
Notice, now, this act of putting these already expiated and forgiven sins on the head
of this live goat does not take place until after the high priest returns from the holy
of holies within the veil—so this typified an act to take place after the Second Coming
of Christ to this Earth!
and the high priest returning to place the sins finally upon the head of the live goat
represented the return of Christ, who will place the sins He bore on their author,
the devil, and who will send him away alive into a desolate uninhabited wilderness
—the “bottomless pit,” or abyss, of Revelation 20:3.
In the 19th chapter of Revelation, we have the prophecy of the Second Coming of Christ.
At the beginning of the 20th chapter, what is to happen?Exactly what the 16th chapter of
Leviticus shows. The devil is sent away—the symbol here used is the “bottomless pit”
symbol of an uninhabited desolate wilderness (Revelation 18:2)—and he is sent there
by a fit man—an angel from heaven. Now the devil is not killed. He does not die.
He is still alive a thousand years later—after the Millennium (Revelation 20:7).
Both goats were “[presented] before the Lord.” Can Satan be presented before the Lord?
Job 1:6 and 2:1 say he has presented himself before the Lord. Note, too, Azazel was driven
away from the holy of holies, a symbol of God’s presence.
And so the annual Day of Atonement was instituted forever to keep continually before God’s
children and His Church the plan of redemption, to occur after the Second Coming of Christ.
And we find this annual holy day recognized in the New Testament. In Acts 27:9, it is
recorded that Paul was on his perilous sea voyage to Rome, “when sailing was now
dangerous, because the fast was now already past ….” See the margin in your Bible.
The fast refers to the Day of Atonement—the 10th day of the seventh month.
I asked you to prove your alligations but you failed to, so here it is for everyone.
you know these quotes but lied to the forum knowing it was false goship.
"Who is the real author of our sins? The devil is the author of them,
even as Christ is the author of our salvation. Jesus took our guilt
—our blame—our sins—upon Himself as an innocent substitutionary sacrifice.
Is it justice for Christ to bear guilt that is not His, while the devil goes off scot-free?
Do you not suppose God’s great plan will finally work full justice by placing that
original blame and guilt right where it belongs?
But justice certainly demands that God place right back on the head of the devil
his guilt—not our guilt, but his own guilt—for leading us into sin. We were guilty,
too—and our guilt Christ bore—yet all our sins belong right back on the devil as
his own guilt!
The Azazel goat carries away the sins of all the people already forgiven. These sins
already were fully paid for by Christ’s substitute sacrifice, symbolized by the killing
of the innocent goat before those same sins were finally laid on the live goat.
They had been previously paid for by the death of the slain goat.
The devil is the real author of all sin. Can we, then, be finally made at one with God,
as long as this instigator of sin is with us? Can we not see he must first be driven away? "
-
this quote above that sparkman should know , its from his old former church,
nowhere does it say that they believe satan is our sin bearer.
it says Jesus took our guilt—our blame—our sins—upon Himself
sparkman continues to repeat lies and false slander againest his former church,
not sure why he does this, but I bet it is not good for his health or salavation.
-
continued quote from - The Day of Atonement, or the Fast
And there would not be justice with God unless his own guilt in our sins were placed right
back on his head? Is it justice for Christ to bear the devil’s guilt, as well as our own guilt,
for our sins?
The driving away of the second live goat shows the final atonement, by placing the sins
on their author where they belong, and the complete removal of the sins and their author
from the presence of God and His people—and thus the complete deliverance of the
people from the power of Satan.
after laying both his hands on the live goat, Azazel, Aaron had to wash and cleanse
himself before coming in contact with the people. So, too, the “fit man” also had to
wash his clothes and bathe himself after coming in contact with the Azazel goat,
before he came into the presence of the people. The symbolism is certainly that
of having come in contact with the devil!
Notice, now, this act of putting these already expiated and forgiven sins on the head
of this live goat does not take place until after the high priest returns from the holy
of holies within the veil—so this typified an act to take place after the Second Coming
of Christ to this Earth!
and the high priest returning to place the sins finally upon the head of the live goat
represented the return of Christ, who will place the sins He bore on their author,
the devil, and who will send him away alive into a desolate uninhabited wilderness
—the “bottomless pit,” or abyss, of Revelation 20:3.
In the 19th chapter of Revelation, we have the prophecy of the Second Coming of Christ.
At the beginning of the 20th chapter, what is to happen?Exactly what the 16th chapter of
Leviticus shows. The devil is sent away—the symbol here used is the “bottomless pit”
symbol of an uninhabited desolate wilderness (Revelation 18:2)—and he is sent there
by a fit man—an angel from heaven. Now the devil is not killed. He does not die.
He is still alive a thousand years later—after the Millennium (Revelation 20:7).
Both goats were “[presented] before the Lord.” Can Satan be presented before the Lord?
Job 1:6 and 2:1 say he has presented himself before the Lord. Note, too, Azazel was driven
away from the holy of holies, a symbol of God’s presence.
And so the annual Day of Atonement was instituted forever to keep continually before God’s
children and His Church the plan of redemption, to occur after the Second Coming of Christ.
And we find this annual holy day recognized in the New Testament. In Acts 27:9, it is
recorded that Paul was on his perilous sea voyage to Rome, “when sailing was now
dangerous, because the fast was now already past ….” See the margin in your Bible.
The fast refers to the Day of Atonement—the 10th day of the seventh month.
Last edited:
JGIG, do you know how many of these guys are anti-Trinitarians, and/or deny the full deity of Jesus Christ?
Particularly I am interested in Eddie Chumney as he has been speaking at a local Messianic congregation.
The catch-phrase of this Messianic congregation is Truth Over Tradition. It's a worrisome development for me.
Particularly I am interested in Eddie Chumney as he has been speaking at a local Messianic congregation.
The catch-phrase of this Messianic congregation is Truth Over Tradition. It's a worrisome development for me.
H1285
[FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)]בְּרִית
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
Total KJV occurrences: 284
This is the Old Covenant...fulfilled through Jesus with His double nature of man/God.
Can you see?
Gen 15:1 Some time later, a message came from the LORD to Abram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Abram. I am your shield; your reward will be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram replied, "Lord GOD, what can you give me since I continue to be childless, and the heir of my household is Eliezer from Damascus?
Gen 15:3 Look!" Abram said, "You haven't given me any offspring, so a servant born in my house is going to be my heir."
Gen 15:4 A message came from the LORD to him again: "This one will not be your heir. Instead, the child who will be born to you will be your heir."
Gen 15:5 Then the LORD took him outside. "Look up at the sky and count the stars—if you can!" he said. "Your descendants will be that numerous."
Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:7 The LORD spoke to him, "I am the LORD, who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land as an inheritance."
Gen 15:8 But he replied, "Lord GOD, how will I know that I will inherit it?"
Gen 15:9 The LORD responded, "Bring me a three year old cow, a three year old female goat, a three year old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 So Abram brought him all these animals and cut each of them in half, down the middle, placing the pieces opposite each other, but he did not cut the birds in half.
Gen 15:11 When birds of prey swooped down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun began to set, Abram was overcome with deep sleep, and suddenly a frightening and terrifying darkness descended on him.
Gen 15:13 Then the LORD told Abram, "You can be certain about this: Your descendants will be foreigners in a land that isn't theirs. They will be slaves there and will be oppressed for 400 years.
Gen 15:14 However, I will judge the nation that they serve, and later they will leave there with many possessions.
Gen 15:15 Now as for you, you'll die peacefully, join your ancestors, and be buried at a good old age.
Gen 15:16 Your descendants will return here in the fourth generation, since the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet run its course."
Gen 15:17 When the sun had fully set and it was dark, a smoking fire pot and a fiery torch passed between the animal pieces.
Gen 15:18 That very day the LORD made this covenant with Abram: "I'm giving this land to your descendants, from the river of Egypt to the great Euphrates River—
Gen 15:19 including the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,
Gen 15:21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."
The dove and pigeon was not completely separated. Symbolic of the sacrifice of the Son of God. Two natures.
All the sacrifices of the Jews are completed in this covenant. And God (Father) passes through them all with acceptance.
The NT covenant is the heir of all heavenly matters has died and left them all to His body. To rule and reign over the world spirit, the devil, and one's own flesh nature.
It's good to understand what we have in the Jewish religion. For Jesus is of Israel.
[FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)]בְּרִית
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
Total KJV occurrences: 284
This is the Old Covenant...fulfilled through Jesus with His double nature of man/God.
Can you see?
Gen 15:1 Some time later, a message came from the LORD to Abram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Abram. I am your shield; your reward will be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram replied, "Lord GOD, what can you give me since I continue to be childless, and the heir of my household is Eliezer from Damascus?
Gen 15:3 Look!" Abram said, "You haven't given me any offspring, so a servant born in my house is going to be my heir."
Gen 15:4 A message came from the LORD to him again: "This one will not be your heir. Instead, the child who will be born to you will be your heir."
Gen 15:5 Then the LORD took him outside. "Look up at the sky and count the stars—if you can!" he said. "Your descendants will be that numerous."
Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:7 The LORD spoke to him, "I am the LORD, who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land as an inheritance."
Gen 15:8 But he replied, "Lord GOD, how will I know that I will inherit it?"
Gen 15:9 The LORD responded, "Bring me a three year old cow, a three year old female goat, a three year old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 So Abram brought him all these animals and cut each of them in half, down the middle, placing the pieces opposite each other, but he did not cut the birds in half.
Gen 15:11 When birds of prey swooped down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun began to set, Abram was overcome with deep sleep, and suddenly a frightening and terrifying darkness descended on him.
Gen 15:13 Then the LORD told Abram, "You can be certain about this: Your descendants will be foreigners in a land that isn't theirs. They will be slaves there and will be oppressed for 400 years.
Gen 15:14 However, I will judge the nation that they serve, and later they will leave there with many possessions.
Gen 15:15 Now as for you, you'll die peacefully, join your ancestors, and be buried at a good old age.
Gen 15:16 Your descendants will return here in the fourth generation, since the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet run its course."
Gen 15:17 When the sun had fully set and it was dark, a smoking fire pot and a fiery torch passed between the animal pieces.
Gen 15:18 That very day the LORD made this covenant with Abram: "I'm giving this land to your descendants, from the river of Egypt to the great Euphrates River—
Gen 15:19 including the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,
Gen 15:21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."
The dove and pigeon was not completely separated. Symbolic of the sacrifice of the Son of God. Two natures.
All the sacrifices of the Jews are completed in this covenant. And God (Father) passes through them all with acceptance.
The NT covenant is the heir of all heavenly matters has died and left them all to His body. To rule and reign over the world spirit, the devil, and one's own flesh nature.
It's good to understand what we have in the Jewish religion. For Jesus is of Israel.
If anyone is sincerely concerned with the Sabbath issue after being subjected to Sabbathkeeper rhetoric I highly suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It addresses the Seventh Day Adventist claims concerning Colossians 2:16-17. The portion on this is written by Old Testament scholar Jerry Gladson. There is a Seventh Day Adventist on the forums aggressively spamming threads advertising his own website claiming Sabbathbreaking will be the Mark of the Beast. I grew up in a family with a similar mentality and am aggressively against that sort of paranoid, uninformed mentality.
Anyways it is a PDF file and is 8.00. This is not my website. I am simply providing the link as I am concerned about Judaizer influences here.
https://www.ratzlaf.com/Sabbath-in-Christ-eBook-in-pdf-file-sicepdf.htm
Anyways it is a PDF file and is 8.00. This is not my website. I am simply providing the link as I am concerned about Judaizer influences here.
https://www.ratzlaf.com/Sabbath-in-Christ-eBook-in-pdf-file-sicepdf.htm
I have been studying scripture for some time using a commentary by a Hebrew Roots Movement agminister. This is some of what I have learned about them.
t
The movement started after the discovery of the deep sea scrolls and is based of scripture. They use understanding of scripture that was gained by these scrolls. This commentary says that all scriptuwre is from God to man and men put what they heard into human language in words they understood. We need to know what these words meant to them in the time they were living in. The exception is when scripture tells us "the Lord says".
T
They say that the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) sets up the principles of the Lord and the NT is based on those principles. In the commentary I am studying it constantly shows where the two are tied together in principles. They do not believe that scripture tells us God in the OT was different from God in thae NT and point out that man divided the word of God in two, God did not.
As far as disregarding all scripture has to say about the gentiles not being obligated to keep up the rituals of Jewish culture, they feel all scripture is from the Lord and we belong to Him. We must listen to all the Lord tells us, and the Lord tells us to listen to the Holy Spirit to lead to obedience, not rituals. However, the rituals were given by the Lord and they say we must learn from them as scripture tells us.
I am studying Acts and will then study Romans under this commentator. I haven't found where Hebrew Roots teaches anything but bible and history that a source is given for. He sometimes points to church doctrines and why he believes they come from man and not scripture.
t
The movement started after the discovery of the deep sea scrolls and is based of scripture. They use understanding of scripture that was gained by these scrolls. This commentary says that all scriptuwre is from God to man and men put what they heard into human language in words they understood. We need to know what these words meant to them in the time they were living in. The exception is when scripture tells us "the Lord says".
T
They say that the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) sets up the principles of the Lord and the NT is based on those principles. In the commentary I am studying it constantly shows where the two are tied together in principles. They do not believe that scripture tells us God in the OT was different from God in thae NT and point out that man divided the word of God in two, God did not.
As far as disregarding all scripture has to say about the gentiles not being obligated to keep up the rituals of Jewish culture, they feel all scripture is from the Lord and we belong to Him. We must listen to all the Lord tells us, and the Lord tells us to listen to the Holy Spirit to lead to obedience, not rituals. However, the rituals were given by the Lord and they say we must learn from them as scripture tells us.
I am studying Acts and will then study Romans under this commentator. I haven't found where Hebrew Roots teaches anything but bible and history that a source is given for. He sometimes points to church doctrines and why he believes they come from man and not scripture.
It it seems like old wine trying to corrupt the New wine drinkers..... All those rituals were until the Messiah.
Galatians 2
15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comeby the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Please read all of the chapter but for cc I share this.
Matthew 27
5Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God
Hebrews 9
9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
5Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God
Hebrews 9
9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Jeremiah 31
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
For anyone confused please read and learn the Scriptures it is Truth... but here is something to remember:
Isaiah 28
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
For anyone confused please read and learn the Scriptures it is Truth... but here is something to remember:
Isaiah 28
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
I would like to second the comments made with regard to Messianic Jews.
I know many - particularly from South Africa - and it was always a blessing, and a massive learning experience, to be invited to a Sabbath meal. Their understanding of the types and shadows represented by every aspect of the meal and how they pertain to current reality as New Covenant believers was awe-inspiring and faith building in the extreme!
There was never ANY legalism involved here.
They understood perfectly well, as New Covenant believers, that they themselves were not bound to these customs (any of them), but they loved the opportunities presented to inform and build the faith of fellow Gentile believers!
Living in Australia as I now do I really miss my Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ from South Africa...
I know many - particularly from South Africa - and it was always a blessing, and a massive learning experience, to be invited to a Sabbath meal. Their understanding of the types and shadows represented by every aspect of the meal and how they pertain to current reality as New Covenant believers was awe-inspiring and faith building in the extreme!
There was never ANY legalism involved here.
They understood perfectly well, as New Covenant believers, that they themselves were not bound to these customs (any of them), but they loved the opportunities presented to inform and build the faith of fellow Gentile believers!
Living in Australia as I now do I really miss my Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ from South Africa...
The Messiah is God, are you saying that God made a mistake when He gave the rituals to guide Jews to obedience? That we should not study them?
The roots movement listens to scripture, and after the vision sent to Peter it is understood that God made the gentiles holy and they were to be accepted. Paul explained they didn't need to become national Jews to be accepted, but they were given basic things to follow so they would be accepted in synagogue where they could learn about God. We are to listen to the Holy Spirit to guide us to obedience as the rituals guided the Jews. That is what scripture says and that is what the movement says.
Christ obeyed rituals and Paul obeyed rituals. Were they corrupted?
The roots movement listens to scripture, and after the vision sent to Peter it is understood that God made the gentiles holy and they were to be accepted. Paul explained they didn't need to become national Jews to be accepted, but they were given basic things to follow so they would be accepted in synagogue where they could learn about God. We are to listen to the Holy Spirit to guide us to obedience as the rituals guided the Jews. That is what scripture says and that is what the movement says.
Christ obeyed rituals and Paul obeyed rituals. Were they corrupted?
GOD is Almighty and all knowing... no mistake .... but all things come to pass in due season.
The Messiah obeyed and thus bringing us the New Covenant.
I don't want to be accepted in to a synagogue and if you are seeking GOD there with those that reject then accept all the law of Moses... and see if salvation comes by works,circumcise your outward and see what it profit you...
We seek inward circumcision through Faith by Grace.
It it is written:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]King James Bible
John 4
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4And he must needs go through Samaria. 5Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with hisjourney, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Messiah obeyed and thus bringing us the New Covenant.
I don't want to be accepted in to a synagogue and if you are seeking GOD there with those that reject then accept all the law of Moses... and see if salvation comes by works,circumcise your outward and see what it profit you...
We seek inward circumcision through Faith by Grace.
It it is written:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]King James Bible
John 4
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4And he must needs go through Samaria. 5Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with hisjourney, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Another thing to look out for is undermining Christianity by claiming everything is pagan.
Here is a list of things you might encounter or already have:
Easter is pagan
Sunday is pagan
Trinity is pagan
Soul is pagan (Or greek philosophy)
Hell is pagan
Heaven is pagan (Or greek philosophy)
All the while these same people are wearing wedding rings, which is also pagan. When you really trace things down, everything is pagan, can we find some imagery similar to the trinity? Yes we can, that does not mean that the trinity is not true.
The people who are making these "everything is pagan or greek philosophy" claims tend to not be very consistent, for example: Muslims believe in one God, therefore the belief in one God is pagan. Just because someone believes something similar does not mean it is wrong, we should go to the Bible, see what it says and believe it even if it does match up with some greek philosophy.
Just figured I would post this incase someone who has been encountered by these movements has had their faith shaken by the "everything is pagan" claims.
Here is a list of things you might encounter or already have:
Easter is pagan
Sunday is pagan
Trinity is pagan
Soul is pagan (Or greek philosophy)
Hell is pagan
Heaven is pagan (Or greek philosophy)
All the while these same people are wearing wedding rings, which is also pagan. When you really trace things down, everything is pagan, can we find some imagery similar to the trinity? Yes we can, that does not mean that the trinity is not true.
The people who are making these "everything is pagan or greek philosophy" claims tend to not be very consistent, for example: Muslims believe in one God, therefore the belief in one God is pagan. Just because someone believes something similar does not mean it is wrong, we should go to the Bible, see what it says and believe it even if it does match up with some greek philosophy.
Just figured I would post this incase someone who has been encountered by these movements has had their faith shaken by the "everything is pagan" claims.
That is exactly what we should do, and that is what the Hebrew Roots that I have run across is doing.
Muslims believe in one God, we believe in one God. What does the bible say? It describes the true God, His attributes and what God does. Our God is not the same as the Muslim God according to scripture.
The church tells us to celebrate Christmas. What does the bible say? That word isn't in the bible and there is nothing about celebrating Christmas. There are no directions for us about Christmas in scripture, for or against. Easter is different. Scripture tells us to celebrate our forgiveness of sin through what we now know is Christ by celebrating Passover and tells us when to do this. We are not to give up God's instructions and substitute men's instructions about how to do this.
However, we are told of many feasts to celebrate. Paul tells us that rituals are not for us gentiles, so are these feasts a ritual? The feasts are to show us God's plan for our salvation and we are to celebrate and praise Him for it. It is not a ritual. We need to study and follow scripture.
In everything, we are to follow scripture. That is what Hebrew Roots is all about.
Muslims believe in one God, we believe in one God. What does the bible say? It describes the true God, His attributes and what God does. Our God is not the same as the Muslim God according to scripture.
The church tells us to celebrate Christmas. What does the bible say? That word isn't in the bible and there is nothing about celebrating Christmas. There are no directions for us about Christmas in scripture, for or against. Easter is different. Scripture tells us to celebrate our forgiveness of sin through what we now know is Christ by celebrating Passover and tells us when to do this. We are not to give up God's instructions and substitute men's instructions about how to do this.
However, we are told of many feasts to celebrate. Paul tells us that rituals are not for us gentiles, so are these feasts a ritual? The feasts are to show us God's plan for our salvation and we are to celebrate and praise Him for it. It is not a ritual. We need to study and follow scripture.
In everything, we are to follow scripture. That is what Hebrew Roots is all about.
I tried to read this thread… It was just all crazy and got too silly to keep reading. I honestly do not know anything about the Jewish Roots Movement except for some person I talked to many years ago tried to tell me he was a Jew, by some long-lost tribe, and he was not of the lost tribe of Ethiopia, but some long lost tribe in Europe. He quit talking to me because I let him know something was long lost and not his “tribe”….
It is wonderful for non-Jews to go to the Messianic Synagogue and even say they are Messianic. Messianic is just believing Y-shua is Messiah! We are race. A non-Jew will never be a Jew nor will a saved Jew be a non-Jew. In my Messianic Synagogue, we do not let non-Jews wear a Yakama because they are not Jews. But do you know what they do; everything we do…. why? Because a saved non-Jew is just as equal under Messiah as a Jew. In Messiah, Christ there is no Jew nor Greek, save or free…. But non-the less we Jews are a race and non-Jews are grafted in. The truth be told the non-Jews got the better end of the deal even though you share in the blessings and the curses. You do not have the curses like we have. And I read in this post silly stuff about Torah… Torah is still for today… If not do not ever quote the first 5 books of the Bible again and rip it out of your Bible if you are ok with removing G-d’s Word. Then Torah is not for today. But some Laws are for only us Jews, even to this day. Why because we are Jews. If you want to follow them, great! the Laws not just for Jews but still apply today, like the moral Laws, the 10 Commandments, shame on any person claiming to be saved that willing refuses to follow them.
The bottom line is on a Jew is a Jew a Christian is grafted in. All of us are saved the same way by the same blood…. Y-shua and all races have equal right in my Daddy’s kingdom!!!!
It is wonderful for non-Jews to go to the Messianic Synagogue and even say they are Messianic. Messianic is just believing Y-shua is Messiah! We are race. A non-Jew will never be a Jew nor will a saved Jew be a non-Jew. In my Messianic Synagogue, we do not let non-Jews wear a Yakama because they are not Jews. But do you know what they do; everything we do…. why? Because a saved non-Jew is just as equal under Messiah as a Jew. In Messiah, Christ there is no Jew nor Greek, save or free…. But non-the less we Jews are a race and non-Jews are grafted in. The truth be told the non-Jews got the better end of the deal even though you share in the blessings and the curses. You do not have the curses like we have. And I read in this post silly stuff about Torah… Torah is still for today… If not do not ever quote the first 5 books of the Bible again and rip it out of your Bible if you are ok with removing G-d’s Word. Then Torah is not for today. But some Laws are for only us Jews, even to this day. Why because we are Jews. If you want to follow them, great! the Laws not just for Jews but still apply today, like the moral Laws, the 10 Commandments, shame on any person claiming to be saved that willing refuses to follow them.
The bottom line is on a Jew is a Jew a Christian is grafted in. All of us are saved the same way by the same blood…. Y-shua and all races have equal right in my Daddy’s kingdom!!!!