Are we sinners?

[ladylynn]

Again, that is just half the equation. We are to look to Jesus the Author and FINISHER of our faith, not just sit and reckon ourselves dead to sin and the law...

Romans 7:4-6 KJVS
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:11-13 KJVS
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Where have I said "just sit" ???? Having a change of mind is not a one way activity. We are co laborers called to actively HAVE FAITH In Christ and walk in newness of life. I specifically said we are working out our own salvation... we are working OUT what Christ has already PUT IN. That is hardly (just sitting)

It is an active faith with representation of fruit in our life.,but that requires reading the Bible and allowing the HolySpirit to CHANGE the mind and BY FAITH we agree with HIM and WALK in NEWNESS OF LIFE based on a sure belief that HE WILL DO WHAT HE PROMISED. .. Again. hardly (just sitting). Reckoning ourselves is ACTIVELY changing from ONE way of thinking to ANOTHER by FAITH. And once your mind is changed you will WALK ACCORDINGLY and DO the Will of the FATHER.

Maybe the difference you are not seeing is that it becomes a change that transforms the heart to seek to do His will with a willingness and a JOY in the knowledge. Not a compulsion but an obedience that is born out of love. (The love of God constrains us). (the love of God that brings repentance) Religion changes only someones outer man but a true faith changes both the inner man and he then is able to bring forth fruits of righteousness.

 

[crossnote]

Very true... before we can look at who we are in Christ...we need to be Texan-like and "reckon" ourselves dead to the sin which is in our flesh.

...we are for some, still trying to get over the hurdle of the old man being dead...we need to know that even before we can begin to see our new life in Christ.

We are saved by His life...we are to focus on Him and who we are in Him now..after we "know" we..ie..the old man is dead.

Romans 6:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I see those two aspects working simultaneously, but maybe it is a matter of maturity.

 

[kathryn]

Guys..basic beliefs in that we ( our old man ) died with Christ.....look at what we are dealing with here...this is messed up theology concerning Christ and us dying on the cross with Him.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

2 Timothy 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If we don't see the "old man/self" as dead..then our whole theology concerning the new man will be off....the new creation in Christ will be foolishness to us.

How can you see the old man as dead if sin is your master and you are sins slave?

 

[crossnote]

Maybe the difference you are not seeing is that it becomes a change that transforms the heart to seek to do His will with a willingness and a JOY in the knowledge. Not a compulsion but an obedience that is born out of love. (The love of God constrains us). (the love of God that brings repentance) Religion changes only someones outer man but a true faith changes both the inner man and he then is able to bring forth fruits of righteousness.

Oh, I see that difference quite well. The way some were expressing their one sidedness of reckoning, I was wondering if they saw the difference.

 

[Gr8grace]

Because Christians do not have two natures, we have one, as partakers of the divine nature. The "two natures" teaching leads to a schizophrenic understanding of our spiritual identity, and to a paranoid uncertainty of what or who is prompting and motivating our behavior. And ironically it is this very belief in the schizophrenic duality of identity that provides the excuse for our failures. The fallacious "two natures" theory is what allows a Christian to blame his sin on the alleged "old sinful nature" that supposedly inhabits him.

I have to disagree with this. Our flesh has been judged and is condemned. but experientially, we still have that nature. If we want to call "behavior" or "habits" it really doesn't matter. We still have those behaviors and habits.

It is the sin in us that causes sin and we sin from the flesh. Because our new nature is perfect and sinless and cannot sin.

And really, I think it is mostly matter of semantics. You may say that it is our behavior and habits that make us sin and I say it is sin in us that makes us sin.

New American Standard Bible
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

King James Bible
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have to disagree with this. Our flesh has been judged and is condemned. but experientially, we still have that nature. If we want to call "behavior" or "habits" it really doesn't matter. We still have those behaviors and habits.

It is the sin in us that causes sin and we sin from the flesh. Because our new nature is perfect and sinless and cannot sin.

And really, I think it is mostly matter of semantics. You may say that it is our behavior and habits that make us sin and I say it is sin in us that makes us sin.

New American Standard Bible
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

King James Bible
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Okie dokie smokie.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree....sometimes it's a matter of doing both at the same time...especially when confronted with new things that come our way...I really believe the answer is in at least part in understanding the circumcision of the flesh and spirit.....the circumcision of Christ in our inner man of the heart....on how our new creations in Christ is the real us!...and then when we see who we are in Christ..we are transformed outwardly to be what we are already in our inner man in Christ.

I see those two aspects working simultaneously, but maybe it is a matter of maturity.

 

[Grace777x70]

romans 6:14 is a true statement.......but I have no idea what you are talking about........sorry....maybe someone else can help you..

How can you see the old man as dead if sin is your master and you are sins slave?

 

[FreeNChrist]

You jumped in on my response to Lynn. Then you start changing your tune from reckoning to looking to Jesus.
I am only pointing out the danger of being one sided. Maybe a chill pill would do you some good.

Being one sided, there it is again. I am shoveling heart attack snow, a cup of hot coffee would serve me better.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Because Christians do not have two natures, we have one, as partakers of the divine nature. The "two natures" teaching leads to a schizophrenic understanding of our spiritual identity, and to a paranoid uncertainty of what or who is prompting and motivating our behavior. And ironically it is this very belief in the schizophrenic duality of identity that provides the excuse for our failures. The fallacious "two natures" theory is what allows a Christian to blame his sin on the alleged "old sinful nature" that supposedly inhabits him.

Having a spiritual and an earthly nature does not make one schizophrenic. That is the way GOD made us.

On the other hand, denial is a sign of a mental disorder that cannot deal with reality.

 

[Gr8grace]

Okie dokie smokie.

I am not picking a fight ,honest. I am picking your brain.

I know you don't believe in sinless perfection and as believers we still sin. Our new creation in Christ cannot sin.

Where does our sin come from then?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Having a spiritual and an earthly nature does not make one schizophrenic.

Your posts prove otherwise.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's probably both!...the flesh is usually referred to as the old manner of life coming from the "old man".....

Ephesians 4:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life ( our old habits, thought patterns, our self ways of doing things independantly of God - which is our flesh ), you lay aside ( this is past tense in greek ..as in already having been done ) the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Then there is the power of "sin" in the flesh too which causes us to do things we really don't want to..( this is where walking according to the spirit overcomes this )

Romans 7:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Then comes Romans 8...the life with no condemnation in Christ and walking after the spirit will put to death the deeds of the body/flesh.

I have to disagree with this. Our flesh has been judged and is condemned. but experientially, we still have that nature. If we want to call "behavior" or "habits" it really doesn't matter. We still have those behaviors and habits.

It is the sin in us that causes sin and we sin from the flesh. Because our new nature is perfect and sinless and cannot sin.

And really, I think it is mostly matter of semantics. You may say that it is our behavior and habits that make us sin and I say it is sin in us that makes us sin.

New American Standard Bible
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

King James Bible
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[kathryn]

romans 6:14 is a true statement.......but I have no idea what you are talking about........sorry....maybe someone else can help you..

Well you and a few others seem keen to say our flesh state is immaterial, all that matters is the new man. It doesn't matter how much you sin in the flesh, heaven is a done deal. You keep impressing we are a slave to sin in the flesh, sin is our master. It is all the negative side.
Yet Paul impresses holy living, sin not being your master. He has to mean your flesh for that is the only place you can sin.
I understand when a person first becomes a Christian they are a slave to sin. Paul tells us this in Romans 6, but they are to cross over to being a slave of righteousness leading to holiness, not remaining in the state they are when they come to Christ.
Your message of grace focuses on man being a slave to sin, not victory over sin. That is not Paul's message

 

[FreeNChrist]

I am not picking a fight ,honest. I am picking your brain.

I know you don't believe in sinless perfection and as believers we still sin. Our new creation in Christ cannot sin.

Where does our sin come from then?

It comes from our succumbing to the temptations of the Temptor, who utilizes those bents in our desires that he himself helped create.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Well you and a few others seem keen to say our flesh state is the immaterial

Well, whats the alternative?

 

[kathryn]

Well, whats the alternative?

Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14

What did Paul say?

Some have a form of godliness while denying its power

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree....sometimes it's a matter of doing both at the same time...especially when confronted with new things that come our way...I really believe the answer is in at least part in understanding the circumcision of the flesh and spirit.....the circumcision of Christ in our inner man of the heart....on how our new creations in Christ is the real us!...and then when we see who we are in Christ..we are transformed outwardly to be what we are already in our inner man in Christ.

The real us is a body/soul/spirit union. To live in a state of mind that denies the body is (part of) who we are can rightly be considered to be a mental disorder and the fruit of entertaining a neo-gnostic spirit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14

What did Paul say?

Some have a form of godliness while denying its power

Couldn't have said it better. And that would be power over sin, not power to twitch uncontrollably on the floor in 'holy' laughter.

 

[Gr8grace]

It's probably both!...the flesh is usually referred to as the old manner of life coming from the "old man".....

Ephesians 4:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life ( our old habits, thought patterns, our self ways of doing things independantly of God - which is our flesh ), you lay aside ( this is past tense in greek ..as in already having been done ) the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Then there is the power of "sin" in the flesh too which causes us to do things we really don't want to..( this is where walking according to the spirit overcomes this )

Romans 7:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Then comes Romans 8...the life with no condemnation in Christ and walking after the spirit will put to death the deeds of the body/flesh.

My point is basically this.....the flesh,old habits,old man,old behaviors,sin nature are all the same thing.

And you have the key in your post......being filled with the Spirit. The old man is on ignore when we are filled and walking in the Spirit.

If we don't know when we suppress the Spirit,grieve the Spirit or quench the Spirit........we are psycho Christians, because we are out of fellowship. We need to know how to get back into fellowship with God and be led by the Spirit again.