Are we sinners?

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Are christians still sinners?

  • Total voters
    40
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#641
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#641
LOL..I never once said we are a slave to sin....that just makes me laugh....we are saying the complete opposite!..no wonder I don't have a clue what you were trying to allude to.....your conclusion of this so-called message of grace is totally wrong...we say the complete opposite....we say that the grace of the gospel of Christ leads us to lead godly lives in this present world....how in the world you came up with the nonsense that Christians are salves to sin and do not have victory in Christ..is baffling ...

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,


kathryn said:
Well you and a few others seem keen to say our flesh state is immaterial, all that matters is the new man. It doesn't matter how much you sin in the flesh, heaven is a done deal. You keep impressing we are a slave to sin in the flesh, sin is our master. It is all the negative side.
Yet Paul impresses holy living, sin not being your master. He has to mean your flesh for that is the only place you can sin.
I understand when a person first becomes a Christian they are a slave to sin. Paul tells us this in Romans 6, but they are to cross over to being a slave of righteousness leading to holiness, not remaining in the state they are when they come to Christ.
Your message of grace focuses on man being a slave to sin, not victory over sin. That is not Paul's message
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#642
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
#642
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The real us is a body/soul/spirit union. To live in a state of mind that denies the body is (part of) who we are can rightly be considered to be a mental disorder and the fruit of entertaining a neo-gnostic spirit.
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And by using the term entertaining, I mean fornicating with in the loins of one's mind.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#643
#643
kathryn said:
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14

What did Paul say?

Some have a form of godliness while denying its power
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Whats the alternative to the flesh being immaterial?
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#644
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#644
There is no old man...he is a goner..he is dead, dead, dead.....there are the habits, thought patterns. ways of the flesh that was with the old man before we became a new creation in Christ.

It's the term nature...as long as it has nothing to do with our identity in Christ..it's probably fine but it does make one think we are schizophrenic in having dual natures...maybe it's in the term that is used?..


Gr8grace said:
My point is basically this.....the flesh,old habits,old man,old behaviors,sin nature are all the same thing.

Ang you have the key in your post......being filled with the Spirit. The old man is on ignore when we are filled and walking in the Spirit.

If we don't know when we suppress the Spirit,grieve the Spirit or quench the Spirit........we are psycho Christians, because we are out of fellowship. We need to know how to back into fellowship with God and be led by the Spirit again.
Click to expand...
 
K

kathryn

Banned
#645
Dec 22, 2015
233
3
0
#645
Grace777x70 said:
LOL..I never once said we are a slave to sin....that just makes me laugh....we are saying the complete opposite!..no wonder I don't have a clue what you were trying to allude to.....your conclusion of this so-called message of grace is totally wrong...we say the complete opposite....we say that the grace of the gospel of Christ leads us to lead godly lives in this present world....how in the world you came up with the nonsense that Christians are salves to sin and do not have victory in Christ..is baffling ...

QUOTE]

The above is a contradiction, for you say even if someone follows after the flesh constantly the whole of their life they still attain to Heaven. But you also say, the gospel of the grace of Christ leads to Godly living.

So are you saying if a person doesn't follow the Gospel of Christ they are saved anyway?
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F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#646
#646
Gr8grace said:
My point is basically this.....the flesh,old habits,old man,old behaviors,sin nature are all the same thing.

And you have the key in your post......being filled with the Spirit. The old man is on ignore when we are filled and walking in the Spirit.

If we don't know when we suppress the Spirit,grieve the Spirit or quench the Spirit........we are psycho Christians, because we are out of fellowship. We need to know how to get back into fellowship with God and be led by the Spirit again.
Click to expand...
If you are a Christian the "old man" is dead.
 
K

kathryn

Banned
#647
Dec 22, 2015
233
3
0
#647
FreeNChrist said:
Whats the alternative to the flesh being immaterial?
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The flesh is immaterial to salvation if you follow after the Holy Spirit. Sorry to keep mentioning this, but it is central to the Christian life
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#649
#649
kathryn said:
The flesh is immaterial to salvation if you follow after the Holy Spirit. Sorry to keep mentioning this, but it is central to the Christian life
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Interesting, but also irrelevent to my question.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#650
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
#650
kathryn said:
The flesh is immaterial to salvation if you follow after the Holy Spirit. Sorry to keep mentioning this, but it is central to the Christian life
Click to expand...
But to Modern/New/Hyper Grace beliefs, it is immaterial what the flesh does because the new life (one's true identity) is everything. Exactly the beliefs of the gnostics.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#654
#654
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
But to Modern/New/Hyper Grace beliefs, it is immaterial what the flesh does because the new life (one's true identity) is everything. Exactly the beliefs of the gnostics.
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LOL. If only you knew how wrong you are. But it is a great projection of your own gnostic belief.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#655
#655
Grace777x70 said:
There is no old man...he is a goner..he is dead, dead, dead.....there are the habits, thought patterns. ways of the flesh that was with the old man before we became a new creation in Christ.

It's the term nature...as long as it has nothing to do with our identity in Christ..it's probably fine but it does make one think we are schizophrenic in having dual natures...maybe it's in the term that is used?..
Click to expand...
Then where do we sin from? It is not our new nature.

If the flesh was experientially dead,dead,dead..............we could not sin.

our old thoughts, old habits and old way of doing things......is the old man. And they are not experientially dead.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#656
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
#656
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
But to Modern/New/Hyper Grace beliefs, it is immaterial what the flesh does because the new life (one's true identity) is everything. Exactly the beliefs of the gnostics.
Click to expand...
FreeNChrist said:
LOL. If only you knew how wrong you are. But it is a great projection of your own gnostic belief.
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Which part do you think is wrong? The first part has been expressed repeatedly here, and I can provide evidence what the gnostics believed. The two things are clearly identical (but not so obvious to those who are deeply in denial).
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#657
#657
Read 1 Timothy 1:12-15 carefully............

Paul states he is still a sinner here, chief sinner at that, but not because of how he still walks but how he formerly walked.

Look at verse 13 especially as this is where Paul says it was for the things he use to do !!!
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#658
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#658
Here are a couple of short teachings talking about the identity thing...it has helped me to sort this stuff out..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRwok6bfzrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA



Gr8grace said:
My point is basically this.....the flesh,old habits,old man,old behaviors,sin nature are all the same thing.

And you have the key in your post......being filled with the Spirit. The old man is on ignore when we are filled and walking in the Spirit.

If we don't know when we suppress the Spirit,grieve the Spirit or quench the Spirit........we are psycho Christians, because we are out of fellowship. We need to know how to get back into fellowship with God and be led by the Spirit again.
Click to expand...
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#659
#659
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Dealing with the reality of its existence and overcoming its longings in the power of the holy spirit.
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We don't overcome its longings or lusts. The flesh actually gets worse and worse, we don't stand a chance of overcoming it. And the flesh is condemned and is not and will not be redeemed.

We live in the power of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. And He is not worried about cleaning up something or overcoming something that is judged and condemned.

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh.....the flesh is on ignore.

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.
 
K

kathryn

Banned
#660
Dec 22, 2015
233
3
0
#660
Gr8grace said:
We don't overcome its longings or lusts. The flesh actually gets worse and worse, we don't stand a chance of overcoming it. And the flesh is condemned and is not and will not be redeemed.

We live in the power of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. And He is not worried about cleaning up something or overcoming something that is judged and condemned.

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh.....the flesh is on ignore.

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.
Click to expand...
So the Christian walks in the Spirit and the Spirit is not concerned as to how the flesh acts, have I understood you correctly?
 
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