misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

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epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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[SUP]So Dude.... don't be sad for me, or worry to much for my soul, with you bearing false witness against others, it is your own soul you should be concerned about.[/SUP]
[SUP] It's funny, us Catholics are wrongly accused of deleting the 2nd Commandment while the 8th Commandment, Thou shalt not bear false witness, doesn't seem to exist with anti-Catholics. It's also remarkable that there are no anti-Protestant webs, videos, books by Catholics.
It's called integrity.
[/SUP]
No offense but you clearly have NOT read the bible to any great extent. If you had you would know that it says, at least ten times, that the Word of God is immutable. That's not Jimmy Swagger speaking, those are the inspired words of the authors of the bible.
You miss the point. Jimmy Swaggart can quote scripture, and maybe get his interpretations right most of the time, but he is far removed from the language and culture that was very close to the Apostles, compared with Augustine, who was not doctrinally divorced from the early church as is Jimmy Swaggart.
Yet Catholic dogma changes like the wind at the whim of the current reining Pope (or when geopolitical pressures force a Vatican Counsel).
It is impossible for the Church to change dogmas or doctrines. If you want to call starving children a geopolitical pressure, you go right ahead. How about the geopolitical pressure of the evils of birth control and abortion? Isn't that the real root of anti-Catholic prejudice?
Where are you going to put your faith? In the inspired Word of God or the fickle haplessnes of the papacy, which acts more like a political agent of change rather than a hub for for true spirituality?
Please post something from a reliable source the pope has formally taught that would support your assertions. in context. Pontification is easy, research is hard.

"See Eph. 4:5"...So you are saying Paul was Catholic?
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.8
Paul uses the word "one" 6 times. Christ's Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13 CCC 813–822

"ONE" is a divine attribute, characteristic, or quality that describes the Church, but there are 3 more. Find out here:
Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth | Catholic Answers

I would say Paul was Catholic as the term means "universal", but that is putting the cart before the horse. You use the term to mean the big fat denomination with her headquarters in the Vatican, so it's important to get the terms right. Whether Paul knew his letter to the Ephesians would one day be binding on the whole Church is another matter, but the Pauline Corpus was generally accepted by 130, yet quotations arerarely introduced as scriptural. They were generally accepted by 250 AD. The point is, Paul did not put his letters into the Bible. That process ended in 397 AD.

"Catholic"
comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus. It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places,having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world."

That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos,Catholicus, Catholic.

Romans1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed (KATanggeletai) in all the world. (en HOLO to kosmo)

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures.

Acts 9:31 "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied."

There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis" But it was after Ignatius that the term Catholic Church became used more and more to designate the true church.

"Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where JesusChrist is, there is the Catholic Church."
St.Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106A.D

Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing.

Other written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155AD;
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254AD


"Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.

Based on the above data, I must conclude that Paul was Catholic with a universal gospel message. The terms are interchangeable. They always have been.
 
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Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham epostle.

John 8:58
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Romans 4:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Jesus IS God. He IS the Son of God of the Trinity.

To say the Muslims worship God is an out and out lie. The Muslims REJECT God! They serve Satan.

Therefore for the Catholic Church to claim Muslims are our brothers in Christ proves the Catholic Church does not follow Jesus who IS the I AM of the Old Testament.

Its things like this epostle that casts a dark cloud on the Catholic Church. Besides, how can the Catholic Church be the True Church here on earth when they teach Mary is our Mediator?

By the very fact the Catholic Church teaches lies from Satan as truths from God makes the Catholic Church a false church.
 
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Why fordman would anyone ever want to put themselves in a Church that worships Mary as their God?

Do you not know that God will not allow you to Inherit the Kingdom of God?

Only those who do the Will of the Father fordman will enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Teaching Mary was without sin is not doing the Will of the Father fordman.

Teaching Mary is our Mediator is not doing the Will of the Father fordman.

Teaching Mary was assumed into heaven is not doing the Will of the Father fordman.

All those who worship Mary, and follow Mary, and teach false doctrines about Mary will never be allowed to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven fordman and this includes you too.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
1 John 2:23

No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.


You can not deny Jesus as Lord and Savior and have the Father as well, the Muslims deny Jesus therefore they deny God.....
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Another Anti-Catholic misrepresentation, demonstrating your invincible ignorance. Flaming zingers is easy, you don't have to do any work to back up your assault.

The Church has relations with all religions, that does not mean they are embraced. Muslims are brothers insofar as they worship the God of Abraham, but that is as far as it goes. Dialogue with Muslims is much better than being its victims.
(1) They "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." The operative word here is "profess"—they claim to hold the faith of Abraham. In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.

(2) "Together with us they adore the one, merciful God." For many, this statement is perplexing. However, as we saw in last issue’s "Brass Tacks" column, God is aware of and acknowledges all that is good and true in the worship offered to him, however imperfect an understanding of him a worshiper may have. While Muslims, like Jews, do not accept the Trinity, they do acknowledge that God is the only true God and that he is merciful. This means that they honor things that are true about God but have a limited understanding of him.

Christians have a fuller understanding of God because he has revealed more to us about himself: specifically, that he is a Trinity. This doctrine cannot be deduced by human reason; it can only be known by revelation.

Failure to accept this revelation of the Christian age does not stop Muslims from worshiping God any more than it stops Jews. It means only that they know less about God and that they have erroneous corollary ideas (for instance, that Jesus is not the Son of God).​

Read more: http://www.catholicfidelity.com/the-catechism-on-islam-by-james-akin/
You fail to see the lunacy of what you write. Romanism intends to make Muslims and Jews Catholic. The lust Rome has for religious dominance is going to be her downfall.
You have empty assertions and idiotic theories, no evidence. Jesus, the one and only head of the church in heaven, appointed a representative here on earth to run things BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS JESUS ON EARTH. He can do that because he is God, and he is smart enough to know we need a physical earthly mechanism to know truth from error. You are forced to re-write history to suit a man made system.
Further demonstration of your lack of faith and understanding of God is. God does not need a pope to run things here for Him.
You imply any given council but fail to mention one. Maybe you favor Arianism (council of Nicae), or maybe you like Nestorianism (council of Ephesis). Or maybe you favor gay marriage or abortion.
What's amusing is your whole premise/approach to scripture is not much different than the way a Muslim approaches the Qu'ran. Tell ya what, you stop using the term "Romanist, and I won't call you a psychotic Calvinoid. Deal?
Help yourself. If you wish to slander me as psychotic I assure you I will remain unimpressed. You can even call me a fundamentalist all day long and I won't be offended.
Your squirming, looking for fiery darts to throw. If that is your summary of the catechism, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Well Protestantism has catechisms as well but they have made a point to make all of them conform to what is written in the bible not the Gnostics and pagans.
The Church is not a democracy. She is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom. What you mean by "only God's word" is what you want it to mean, making "God's word" subservient to your opinions. That is the worst form of idolatry.
Merely illustrating the lunacy of claiming that the masses are right by virtue of their numbers a favorite tactic of Romanism.

I make my opinions subservient to Gods word not the other way around.

It is apparent that you are educated well above your intellectual level. Paul was well educated as well but he counted all that but loss for the knowledge of Christ as His Savoir.

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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You should not use the term "hate" in your words or even think such things. "hate" is not in the Lord's vocabulary and it should not be in yours either


just a suggestion
Well that's just not true. God does hate. God hates sin. Not a big thing for me and you may do as you like with that word.

I love that the word of God says that Job eschewed evil.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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1 John 2:23

No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.


You can not deny Jesus as Lord and Savior and have the Father as well, the Muslims deny Jesus therefore they deny God.....
Do the Jews deny God as well?

You fail to see the lunacy of what you write. Romanism intends to make Muslims and Jews Catholic. The lust Rome has for religious dominance is going to be her downfall.
You give us more credit than we give ourselves.

Further demonstration of your lack of faith and understanding of God is. God does not need a pope to run things here for Him.
No, but we do, and God knows it.
Help yourself. If you wish to slander me as psychotic I assure you I will remain unimpressed. You can even call me a fundamentalist all day long and I won't be offended. Well Protestantism has catechisms as well but they have made a point to make all of them conform to what is written in the bible not the Gnostics and pagans.
They all conform with each other? The Catholic Catechism conforms to Gnostics and pagans? Another empty assertion, with no proof. Your whole objection to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is based on Gnosticism so if you want to go there, it's fine by me.

Merely illustrating the lunacy of claiming that the masses are right by virtue of their numbers a favorite tactic of Romanism.
False. 80% of the bishops favored Arianism before the council of Nicae, and a frightfully larger % opposed Humanae Vitae. It is the job of the Church to teach truth about Christ and the truth about man. "The masses" don't teach the Church. Like all anti-Catholics, you have invented a boogie man that is not based on reality.

I make my opinions subservient to Gods word not the other way around.
That's the point. It's what you THINK God's word means. Most of the time you get it right, the rest you use as weapons to bash the Church Jesus founded.
 
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Luke 14:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP] “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

Hate IS in the Lord's vocabulary!

You fordman and you epostle CANNOT serve two Masters! You cannot serve God and Mary!

Reject Mary fordman and epostle! Serve God ONLY!
 
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I ask you epostle where in the Scriptures ONLY does God ever say Mary is our Mediator?

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

God says there is ONE God!

God says there is ONE mediator between God and Men. God clearly says BETWEEN God and men. Where is Mary in this sentence epostle? I do not see Mary in this verse. God also says ONE mediator!

Tell me why epostle are you teaching the opposite of what God says? God says "One Mediator", not two, not three. He says ONE mediator.

See, this is why the Catholics refuse to accept Scriptures only. Because if they only used the Scriptures from God then 99% of all their Doctrines and Traditions would fall into the dust.

You really need to stop listening to the Catholic Church epostle. You cannot claim to be a brother in Christ as long as you reject the Truth from God to follow man made lies.

As it stands epostle, there is a very good chance you cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God because you are not doing the Will of the Father.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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Luke 14:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP] “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

Hate IS in the Lord's vocabulary!

You fordman and you epostle CANNOT serve two Masters! You cannot serve God and Mary!

Reject Mary fordman and epostle! Serve God ONLY!
image.jpg
Using scripture to support a stupid insult? Back to the ignorasium you go!
 
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Oh WOW, real mature epostle! Is this all you can do epostle?

How about showing us were in Scriptures does God say two Mediators!

How about showing us in Scriptures where God says Mary is a mediator between God and Men!

The real reason you put the Truth on ignore is because deep in your heart epostle you do know you are dead wrong about Mary being a mediator.

You can ignore the Truth from God all you want epostle, the ONLY person you are hurting is yourself, not me and not the True Church.

The Truth is epostle God clearly says you cannot serve two Masters. This is why you are so upset. Its the Word of God you hate and is also why you put people on ignore.

May God have mercy on your Soul.
 

HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
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So what should one believe when scripture and Catholic catechism conflict, and why?
I'm still waiting for a cogent response on this. Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME."

Catholics would have us believe that the last sentence should include "or my mom" at the end. Which is correct, scripture or chatechism? Since Mary was elevated to queen of the universe in Vatican Counsel II is there really any need to pay attention to Jesus any more? I would think the Queen of the Universe holds much more sway with the Almighty then a suffering servant of mankind, like Jesus. So which way should we go?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Do the Jews deny God as well?
They deny that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah sent from God. They refuse to look to Him for the forgiveness of their sins.
That's the point. It's what you THINK God's word means. Most of the time you get it right, the rest you use as weapons to bash the Church Jesus founded.
Man if only you would trust Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to you the truth of Gods word.

Acts 17:10 ¶ And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
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Sorry to get off topic, but I wanted to let bikerchaz know that there is no reason why we have to think that creation had to come through evolution as you seemed to state in your post which included this sentence: The stars and their courses, the millions of universes we can now see through our telescopes, and our own solar system, WOW God made all these things, it is well documented that we ourselves are made of star dust formed when supernova's explode and new elements are formed and thrown out into space and it is all bound up with the words "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

The measurements that scientists use are also created by God and were made to look like whatever He wanted them to look like.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Do the Jews deny God as well?

You give us more credit than we give ourselves.

No, but we do, and God knows it.
They all conform with each other? The Catholic Catechism conforms to Gnostics and pagans? Another empty assertion, with no proof. Your whole objection to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is based on Gnosticism so if you want to go there, it's fine by me.

False. 80% of the bishops favored Arianism before the council of Nicae, and a frightfully larger % opposed Humanae Vitae. It is the job of the Church to teach truth about Christ and the truth about man. "The masses" don't teach the Church. Like all anti-Catholics, you have invented a boogie man that is not based on reality.

That's the point. It's what you THINK God's word means. Most of the time you get it right, the rest you use as weapons to bash the Church Jesus founded.

The Jews that do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, yes they do deny God........

Jews are not saved and follow the true God if they deny Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and we can not put this title on all Jews because some do believe in Jesus.

There is no different gospel or way in which Jews are saved over Gentiles, all have to put their faith in Jesus to be saved !!!
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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The Jews that do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, yes they do deny God........

Jews are not saved and follow the true God if they deny Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and we can not put this title on all Jews because some do believe in Jesus.

There is no different gospel or way in which Jews are saved over Gentiles, all have to put their faith in Jesus to be saved !!!
Wrong.

Romans 11:28-29(ESV)
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Wrong.

Romans 11:28-29(ESV)
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This scripture does not prove what I said to be wrong, the Jews being enemies for our sake mentioned here is speaking on the unbelieving Jews.

The Jews who do not put their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior will not receive eternal life, they have the same requirement of faith through Jesus as we do !!!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Wrong.

Romans 11:28-29(ESV)
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Israel is not going to be given a pass on the matter of the Messiah. Either they look to Messiah in faith or they perish in their own self will.

Acknowledging God as God is not sufficient as God demands reconciliation. The reconciliation that can only be had through the blood of Christ shed on Calvary.

The promises of God are made to Israel but because of unbelief the Gentiles receive the benefits of those promises. God is blessing the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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Cardinal Marx did not say doctrine can change into something different from what it originally was. The limited quotes in the article:

The church's doctrine, Cardinal Reinhard Marx said, "doesn't depend on the strip of time but can develop over time."
DEVELOPMENT DOES NOT MEAN CHANGE INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL.

He goes on to say:
"Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things," Marx said at a Vatican press conference Friday.

He was talking about the synod on the family on the family. Communion for the divorced. And other problems. He made this comment BEFORE THE SYNOD FINISHED. . Cardinal Marx is giving an opinion to reporters, he is not making infallible declarations. The context that he uses the word "change" does not mean what you think it means. What really matters is the end result of the synod, not off the cuff remarks a single cardinal makes to reporters. You have to prove the Church changed her doctrine on the family.

Despite the calls by some for the Church to change its doctrine by allowing divorced and civilly remarried Catholics without an annulment to receive communion, the synod’s final report upheld current Church teaching and practice on the issue.
Final synod document strongly backs Church teaching, beauty of family life :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

"The core of the Catholic church remains the Gospel, but have we discovered everything?" he asked. "This is what I doubt."
So do I. The Church develops with every age.

By development of doctrine, we mean that some divinely revealed truth has become more deeply understood and more clearly perceived than it had been before. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised to send to teach us, the Church comes to see more deeply what she had always believed, and the resulting insights find expression in devotion of the faithful that may have been quite uncommon in the Church's previous history.
History of Eucharistic Adoration