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And that's where we completely disagree. To say that what Christ did doesn't change how we walk. I can not ever agree with. We have the Holy Spirit. We have been made Children of God. We have been made His temple. I will never diminish these things and look to how people in the Old Testament walked to find my way. I look to Christ who is my way. And His Spirit that guides me within.
C.
C.
I agree they heard from Him, but they were not joined to Him. Like I said they "walked with God" we are "joined with Him".
Okay so let me give you an example with Scripture...
1 Co 2:7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But, as it is written,“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
This is an OT Scripture that Paul is referencing. Because they didn't have what we had.
10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[SUP]d[/SUP]
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
You can see that in the OT they didn't have the mind of Christ, but we do.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Notice Jesus says your father Abraham, but to the disciples He says God is their Father. But the other bigger point here is that Abraham looked forward to our day. So why would I look back to his to determine how to walk?
C.
Okay so let me give you an example with Scripture...
1 Co 2:7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But, as it is written,“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
This is an OT Scripture that Paul is referencing. Because they didn't have what we had.
10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[SUP]d[/SUP]
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
You can see that in the OT they didn't have the mind of Christ, but we do.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Notice Jesus says your father Abraham, but to the disciples He says God is their Father. But the other bigger point here is that Abraham looked forward to our day. So why would I look back to his to determine how to walk?
C.
Well in the OT they did not cast out demons. In fact, no one did. They did not heal people. Only the prophets were recorded of doing this, but now we are all considered prophetic because we all hear from His Spirit.
Unfortunately though in the OT only the prophet heard from Him. That's why he was to be killed on any false witness because there was no one to "test the spirits" for them.
This is another difference that we walk in today that they did not have. I don't know what you consider "much greater works" that the people in the OT walked in that we don't? Plenty of Christians have been martyred, crucified, burned alive, have taken out kingdoms.
Of course we don't have what Samson had which is destroying enemies with a jawbone because Christ revealed the enemy was the demonic not people, but before Christ there was no way of handling the demonic, so deceived people were the enemy. Today we get to simply get them unblinded by casting out demons
Or by loving them and showing them how much God loves them since now there is a way for them to be changed. Christ in us.
C.
Unfortunately though in the OT only the prophet heard from Him. That's why he was to be killed on any false witness because there was no one to "test the spirits" for them.
This is another difference that we walk in today that they did not have. I don't know what you consider "much greater works" that the people in the OT walked in that we don't? Plenty of Christians have been martyred, crucified, burned alive, have taken out kingdoms.
Of course we don't have what Samson had which is destroying enemies with a jawbone because Christ revealed the enemy was the demonic not people, but before Christ there was no way of handling the demonic, so deceived people were the enemy. Today we get to simply get them unblinded by casting out demons
Or by loving them and showing them how much God loves them since now there is a way for them to be changed. Christ in us.C.
Well in the OT they did not cast out demons. In fact, no one did. They did not heal people. Only the prophets were recorded of doing this, but now we are all considered prophetic because we all hear from His Spirit.
Unfortunately though in the OT only the prophet heard from Him. That's why he was to be killed on any false witness because there was no one to "test the spirits" for them.
This is another difference that we walk in today that they did not have. I don't know what you consider "much greater works" that the people in the OT walked in that we don't? Plenty of Christians have been martyred, crucified, burned alive, have taken out kingdoms.
Of course we don't have what Samson had which is destroying enemies with a jawbone because Christ revealed the enemy was the demonic not people, but before Christ there was no way of handling the demonic, so deceived people were the enemy. Today we get to simply get them unblinded by casting out demons Or by loving them and showing them how much God loves them since now there is a way for them to be changed. Christ in us.
C.
Unfortunately though in the OT only the prophet heard from Him. That's why he was to be killed on any false witness because there was no one to "test the spirits" for them.
This is another difference that we walk in today that they did not have. I don't know what you consider "much greater works" that the people in the OT walked in that we don't? Plenty of Christians have been martyred, crucified, burned alive, have taken out kingdoms.
Of course we don't have what Samson had which is destroying enemies with a jawbone because Christ revealed the enemy was the demonic not people, but before Christ there was no way of handling the demonic, so deceived people were the enemy. Today we get to simply get them unblinded by casting out demons
Or by loving them and showing them how much God loves them since now there is a way for them to be changed. Christ in us.C.
L
The more reading I do the more encouraging it is to realize we are to keep on studying and finding out what God is saying to us from His Word. He really wants us to read His letters to us and go all over the Bible to different books and chapters getting the proper "gold nuggets" that only come from the effort of mining it out. And also knowing that we don't have to be scholars but willing learners and the Holy Spirit will give us insight into the mysteries of the Word.
I have read this verse and often wondered about it and have since come to consider it means (especially at this time when the letters were written) they were addressing believing Christian Jews as well as unbelieving Jews were mentioned. They referred to unbelieving Jews as "brothers" as well. The 'brother' who hates is in darkness; The brother who loves is in the light. unsaved and saved.
When James for instance writes to 'the 12 tribes' can we honestly know that all those in the tribes were saved? These are issues to consider when reading. The Jewish believers were going through major changes as the Jewish ways of no longer sacrificing the blood of bulls and goats and moving forward from all the years and training from generation to generation to transition into the new covenant..how confusing this must have been. How many were on the fence? And of course many did not believe and are called the branches from the olive tree that were broken off and we gentiles got grafted in. The Word is IN believers not unbelievers.
And when we get saved, we are given the GIFT of righteousness so how can we be cleansed from unrighteousness? Being righteous is a state of being NOT doing here. There is much to consider about that word 'righteousness'
I have read this verse and often wondered about it and have since come to consider it means (especially at this time when the letters were written) they were addressing believing Christian Jews as well as unbelieving Jews were mentioned. They referred to unbelieving Jews as "brothers" as well. The 'brother' who hates is in darkness; The brother who loves is in the light. unsaved and saved.
When James for instance writes to 'the 12 tribes' can we honestly know that all those in the tribes were saved? These are issues to consider when reading. The Jewish believers were going through major changes as the Jewish ways of no longer sacrificing the blood of bulls and goats and moving forward from all the years and training from generation to generation to transition into the new covenant..how confusing this must have been. How many were on the fence? And of course many did not believe and are called the branches from the olive tree that were broken off and we gentiles got grafted in. The Word is IN believers not unbelievers.
And when we get saved, we are given the GIFT of righteousness so how can we be cleansed from unrighteousness? Being righteous is a state of being NOT doing here. There is much to consider about that word 'righteousness'
L
Not sure how you can compare general behavior of kids to blood bought born again believers given a new nature with the instruction to keep renewing their minds. We were given a new spirit and a mind that is able to be renewed, where as before our minds were un able to spiritually discerning because we were dead in sins and blinded by the enemy of our souls, the devil.
We are now receptive to spiritual things because we were made alive. It takes faith to believe that Jesus did all this for us and then sent the Holy Spirit to be working in and through us.
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L
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Jan[/TD]
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[TD="width: 100%"]Hebrews 10:17
…“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]I don’t know about you, but I would say that Hebrews 10:17 is good news. God sees all our sins—past, present and future—and says, “Your sins I remember no more!” The words “no more” are a strong double negative in the original Greek text. In other words, God is saying, “Your sins I will by no means ever remember!”
Has God lowered His standards? No, He is still perfectly holy. He didremember all our sins—2,000 years ago at the cross. Every sin which we have committed or will commit has been punished to the full in the body of Jesus Christ at the cross. That is why today, God remembers our sins no more. We should, therefore, not be sin-conscious.
Each time we feel condemned for our past mistakes, God wants us to remember the cross and say, “Lord Jesus, you were sentenced for this sin I committed. You bore the judgment, so God will not judge me for this sin. You were condemned for this sin, so God will not condemn me for it.”
If you don’t look to the cross, you will become sin-conscious and you will walk around with a certain expectation of judgment. And that expectation of judgment will give the devil a chance to get you thinking that God has something against you because of your sin.
You must come to the place where you know and believe that all your sins are forgiven, and that you are saved eternally.
Hebrews 10:12, 14 says, “But this Man [Jesus], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected forever…”
You and I are perfected forever because of Jesus’ perfect work on the cross. We are perfected by God’s full acceptance and perfect delight in His Son’s work that has so glorified His holiness. Beloved, hear God say to you, “I will be merciful. Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
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[TD]3
Jan[/TD]
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[TD="width: 100%"]Hebrews 10:17
…“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]I don’t know about you, but I would say that Hebrews 10:17 is good news. God sees all our sins—past, present and future—and says, “Your sins I remember no more!” The words “no more” are a strong double negative in the original Greek text. In other words, God is saying, “Your sins I will by no means ever remember!”
Has God lowered His standards? No, He is still perfectly holy. He didremember all our sins—2,000 years ago at the cross. Every sin which we have committed or will commit has been punished to the full in the body of Jesus Christ at the cross. That is why today, God remembers our sins no more. We should, therefore, not be sin-conscious.
Each time we feel condemned for our past mistakes, God wants us to remember the cross and say, “Lord Jesus, you were sentenced for this sin I committed. You bore the judgment, so God will not judge me for this sin. You were condemned for this sin, so God will not condemn me for it.”
If you don’t look to the cross, you will become sin-conscious and you will walk around with a certain expectation of judgment. And that expectation of judgment will give the devil a chance to get you thinking that God has something against you because of your sin.
You must come to the place where you know and believe that all your sins are forgiven, and that you are saved eternally.
Hebrews 10:12, 14 says, “But this Man [Jesus], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected forever…”
You and I are perfected forever because of Jesus’ perfect work on the cross. We are perfected by God’s full acceptance and perfect delight in His Son’s work that has so glorified His holiness. Beloved, hear God say to you, “I will be merciful. Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
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How does someone read Matthew 5 and think "Oh yeah, I can do that..."?
Its like reading the 10 Commandments after being born again.
You can see what perfection looks like.
And its not you. Perfection comes from somewhere other than yourself. And you know it. Everyone knows it. The difference is those who walk in the Light aren't afraid to admit it. What the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is Real. He changes us. He perfects us. If you really want perfect behaviour there is only one place you can go to get it. You can't shame someone into perfect behaviour. You can't threaten someone into perfect behaviour. You can only be given perfect behaviour as a gift.
That's what all these arguments pretty much boil down to.
You have people who try to boil everything down to a carnal commandment. Something men can attain by working. "Faith without works is dead" they will say.
But then you have people who know what the Lord Jesus Christ does for them. And they know they didn't attain any of it by their own work. But it was given as a gift.
Must a person have Love for the brethren in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Must a person Love God with all of their might and strength in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Any behaviour or attribute that is needful for Salvation is given as a gift. Otherwise Salvation is not a gift but merit.
If people could merit salvation then the bible could have stopped at Matthew 5 and the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to be crucified or resurrected.
<drops mike> lol
Its like reading the 10 Commandments after being born again.
You can see what perfection looks like.
And its not you. Perfection comes from somewhere other than yourself. And you know it. Everyone knows it. The difference is those who walk in the Light aren't afraid to admit it. What the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is Real. He changes us. He perfects us. If you really want perfect behaviour there is only one place you can go to get it. You can't shame someone into perfect behaviour. You can't threaten someone into perfect behaviour. You can only be given perfect behaviour as a gift.
That's what all these arguments pretty much boil down to.
You have people who try to boil everything down to a carnal commandment. Something men can attain by working. "Faith without works is dead" they will say.
But then you have people who know what the Lord Jesus Christ does for them. And they know they didn't attain any of it by their own work. But it was given as a gift.
Must a person have Love for the brethren in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Must a person Love God with all of their might and strength in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Any behaviour or attribute that is needful for Salvation is given as a gift. Otherwise Salvation is not a gift but merit.
If people could merit salvation then the bible could have stopped at Matthew 5 and the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to be crucified or resurrected.
<drops mike> lol
Is John focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain cleansed? Or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? Notice that 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" and verse 10, which says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."In CONTRAST to verse 9 - if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Is anyone trying to imply that everytime a believer commits a sin they are not cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are we lost again until we confess each specific sin? What happens if we forget one?
F
How does someone read Matthew 5 and think "Oh yeah, I can do that..."?
Its like reading the 10 Commandments after being born again.
You can see what perfection looks like.
And its not you. Perfection comes from somewhere other than yourself. And you know it. Everyone knows it. The difference is those who walk in the Light aren't afraid to admit it. What the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is Real. He changes us. He perfects us. If you really want perfect behaviour there is only one place you can go to get it. You can't shame someone into perfect behaviour. You can't threaten someone into perfect behaviour. You can only be given perfect behaviour as a gift.
That's what all these arguments pretty much boil down to.
You have people who try to boil everything down to a carnal commandment. Something men can attain by working. "Faith without works is dead" they will say.
But then you have people who know what the Lord Jesus Christ does for them. And they know they didn't attain any of it by their own work. But it was given as a gift.
Must a person have Love for the brethren in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Must a person Love God with all of their might and strength in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Any behaviour or attribute that is needful for Salvation is given as a gift. Otherwise Salvation is not a gift but merit.
If people could merit salvation then the bible could have stopped at Matthew 5 and the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to be crucified or resurrected.
<drops mike> lol
Its like reading the 10 Commandments after being born again.
You can see what perfection looks like.
And its not you. Perfection comes from somewhere other than yourself. And you know it. Everyone knows it. The difference is those who walk in the Light aren't afraid to admit it. What the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is Real. He changes us. He perfects us. If you really want perfect behaviour there is only one place you can go to get it. You can't shame someone into perfect behaviour. You can't threaten someone into perfect behaviour. You can only be given perfect behaviour as a gift.
That's what all these arguments pretty much boil down to.
You have people who try to boil everything down to a carnal commandment. Something men can attain by working. "Faith without works is dead" they will say.
But then you have people who know what the Lord Jesus Christ does for them. And they know they didn't attain any of it by their own work. But it was given as a gift.
Must a person have Love for the brethren in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Must a person Love God with all of their might and strength in order to be saved? Then it is given as a gift.
Any behaviour or attribute that is needful for Salvation is given as a gift. Otherwise Salvation is not a gift but merit.
If people could merit salvation then the bible could have stopped at Matthew 5 and the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to be crucified or resurrected.
<drops mike> lol
Amen brother, preach it!
We know this is not true. In the gospels Jesus's uses the examples of the pharisees casting out demons so they must have spiritual authority given by God, so why if Jesus does the same thing, he is doing it by Satan's authority.
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
Matt 12:27
So driving out demons is not a sign of the new covenant which you are teaching.
Jesus was establishing His kingdom on earth through the disciples, so things were changing.
The complete expression of Gods nature and intentions were expressed through Israel and finally through Jesus.
It was not Israel failed, but mankind failed to respond to the Lords ways of doing things and in the end rejected His son.
Many christians claim if only they could perform x miracles people would turn to God.
The Israelites saw God in a pillar of cloud and fire at night and still rebelled. The depths of sin are very deep.
The problems in the grace movement also demonstrate rebellion against simple morality, even from born again believers.
And what is the problem? Is it the words in the bible? Is it the teaching? Or is it how people are responding to God, ie sin and not repenting and understanding what walking in the Spirit really is. That is what I think is the problem, us and our superficial response to a loving holy God.
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
Matt 12:27
So driving out demons is not a sign of the new covenant which you are teaching.
Jesus was establishing His kingdom on earth through the disciples, so things were changing.
The complete expression of Gods nature and intentions were expressed through Israel and finally through Jesus.
It was not Israel failed, but mankind failed to respond to the Lords ways of doing things and in the end rejected His son.
Many christians claim if only they could perform x miracles people would turn to God.
The Israelites saw God in a pillar of cloud and fire at night and still rebelled. The depths of sin are very deep.
The problems in the grace movement also demonstrate rebellion against simple morality, even from born again believers.
And what is the problem? Is it the words in the bible? Is it the teaching? Or is it how people are responding to God, ie sin and not repenting and understanding what walking in the Spirit really is. That is what I think is the problem, us and our superficial response to a loving holy God.
The problem here is an old one. If you say the law is only to identify failure, why have a people Israel over 1,800 years, record all the ups and downs if this is not an essential part of knowing who we are as people and how we relate to God.
The second point if Jesus is simply love everyone, have a change of heart, and its all great, why not just say that.
So the whole structure is about concepts, ideas, ceremonies matter, along with laws, relationships and communication.
It is simply not just a done deal, it is a massive task going into eternity.
If you want to junk it all then that is a different faith.
The second point if Jesus is simply love everyone, have a change of heart, and its all great, why not just say that.
So the whole structure is about concepts, ideas, ceremonies matter, along with laws, relationships and communication.
It is simply not just a done deal, it is a massive task going into eternity.
If you want to junk it all then that is a different faith.
Language is an interesting thing. Righteousness is a word meaning no sin, no failure according to a benchmark of behaviour.
You can be counted as righteous, when your record has sin in it, but you cannot be given righteousness, as you cannot change how you have behaved in the past.
The gift is to be counted as righteous. You can be given the ability to walk righteously, but whether that is possible and still have choice or free will is a question. We can be changed, have a new attitude or have the fear, hatred, bitterness removed because we forgive and walk in love, so we can walk in the Spirit righteously. But that is transformation partly through obedience, partly through Gods work in our hearts etc. This would be called being cleansed, ie having the damage of sin healed, and being made whole so sin is seen for what it is, something to avoid.
So the meaning of the work righteous is being taken as something different by the hyper-grace people outside normal language and meaning. This makes conversation difficult without explaining using other words what they really mean.
You can be counted as righteous, when your record has sin in it, but you cannot be given righteousness, as you cannot change how you have behaved in the past.
The gift is to be counted as righteous. You can be given the ability to walk righteously, but whether that is possible and still have choice or free will is a question. We can be changed, have a new attitude or have the fear, hatred, bitterness removed because we forgive and walk in love, so we can walk in the Spirit righteously. But that is transformation partly through obedience, partly through Gods work in our hearts etc. This would be called being cleansed, ie having the damage of sin healed, and being made whole so sin is seen for what it is, something to avoid.
So the meaning of the work righteous is being taken as something different by the hyper-grace people outside normal language and meaning. This makes conversation difficult without explaining using other words what they really mean.
K
In order to understand the original law you must do back ground study into how it was given and used by the Jews, until you do this then I can not discuss any further with you how the law was applied.
Second yes those things do matter, because the Word of God from the Holy Spirit through Paul stated clearly those who continue to do those things will "NOT" inherit the promise !!!
Overcoming the world means through Christ we stop walking as we use to in the old sinful nature, we now walk because of Him in our new nature by the Spirit.
The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins..........
We can not be free from sin if we are still walking around serving it, being slaves to it !!!
We can not serve the flesh and His righteousness both....................