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No..... what's astounding is the fact that what your saying here is an out-n-out lie. What I said was....
"Now I did a search in all the differnt versions of the bible and could not find in one, these words of the Sinner's Prayer in Scripture. Now I'm not saying it is wrong to pray this prayer. I'm just saying, if these words are not in Scripture, why do Sola Scripturists claim all one as to do is recite them to be saved? Would you agree they are are nothing more than tradition of man? (small t)"
Sheesh Dude.....
With that being said PM, maybe you can bring up where I "promoted" people to pray the Hail Mary? And as far as the Hail Mary prayer is not in Scripture? Let's just wait until Mecc99 answers me and I'll kill two birds with one stone on how the Hail Mary prayer is based upon Scripture. Keep in mind, we Catholics "do not" believe in the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scripture.
Kinda like eating your "Crow" and haviing it too?
I'm sorry, but saying it more than once, still doesn't make it true. (as I just showed)
Spoken like a true confused follower of the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and totaly ignorant of what the Catholic Church truly teaches.
Nah.... you are to blinded by the likes of Jack Chick, Dave Hunt, ect...always assuming what these clowns say is true, and then not taking the time to verify if what they preach of the Catholic Faith is in fact the case.
Nope.... you are mistaking the Catholic Church with one of the many thousands different Protestant/non-Catholic "feel good" churches.
Pax Christi
"Now I did a search in all the differnt versions of the bible and could not find in one, these words of the Sinner's Prayer in Scripture. Now I'm not saying it is wrong to pray this prayer. I'm just saying, if these words are not in Scripture, why do Sola Scripturists claim all one as to do is recite them to be saved? Would you agree they are are nothing more than tradition of man? (small t)"
Sheesh Dude.....
With that being said PM, maybe you can bring up where I "promoted" people to pray the Hail Mary? And as far as the Hail Mary prayer is not in Scripture? Let's just wait until Mecc99 answers me and I'll kill two birds with one stone on how the Hail Mary prayer is based upon Scripture. Keep in mind, we Catholics "do not" believe in the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scripture.
Kinda like eating your "Crow" and haviing it too?
I'm sorry, but saying it more than once, still doesn't make it true. (as I just showed)
Spoken like a true confused follower of the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and totaly ignorant of what the Catholic Church truly teaches.
Nah.... you are to blinded by the likes of Jack Chick, Dave Hunt, ect...always assuming what these clowns say is true, and then not taking the time to verify if what they preach of the Catholic Faith is in fact the case.
Nope.... you are mistaking the Catholic Church with one of the many thousands different Protestant/non-Catholic "feel good" churches.
Pax Christi
The promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God—it is not something we need to "earn." Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).
The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what "Bible Christians" teach; see Jas. 2:24). When we first come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we must live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).
Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Matt. 25:34-40).
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21-23, 19:16-21). We cannot "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life.
Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" (Phil. 2:13). John explained that "the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, `I know him,' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4, 3:19-24, 5:3-4).
Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (1 John 5:16-17). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven.
Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Rom. 2:7-8).
Sins are nothing but evil works. We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts. ---Catholicanswers.com
Pax Christi
The promise of eternal life is not the gift God gives to us. It is eternal life with Him that He gives to us. We are not partners but receivers of the gift of eternal life. A gift received through believing in Gods word the bible.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh and dwelling among us. John 1 It is the word of God that sanctifies us.
Man cannot will himself to be a Christian. Man must be converted by the power and will of God through the word and the Holy Spirit. Acting Christian does not make on Christian. Only the new birth as taught in Gods word the bible makes one a Christian.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh and dwelling among us. John 1 It is the word of God that sanctifies us.
Man cannot will himself to be a Christian. Man must be converted by the power and will of God through the word and the Holy Spirit. Acting Christian does not make on Christian. Only the new birth as taught in Gods word the bible makes one a Christian.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Allow me to insert a friendly reminder here: The administration of Christian Chat hold to fundamental protestant doctrines and likewise stand by their belief that the RCC holds to many erroneous doctrines.
Albeit CC does not prohibit Catholics or discussion of RCC doctrines in threads such as these, we do still reserve the right to remove users who we deem are promoting (not discussing) erroneous RCC doctrine just the same as we would any other user promoting erroneous doctrines. We do however tend to give quite a bit of latitude in threads of this type.
That being said, we still expect ALL users (regardless of doctrinal background) to maintain a given level of civility within their discussion. If this discussion cannot be held within that given level of civility then this thread will be closed and the offenders (from this point forward) will be removed regardless of their doctrinal stances.
Albeit CC does not prohibit Catholics or discussion of RCC doctrines in threads such as these, we do still reserve the right to remove users who we deem are promoting (not discussing) erroneous RCC doctrine just the same as we would any other user promoting erroneous doctrines. We do however tend to give quite a bit of latitude in threads of this type.
That being said, we still expect ALL users (regardless of doctrinal background) to maintain a given level of civility within their discussion. If this discussion cannot be held within that given level of civility then this thread will be closed and the offenders (from this point forward) will be removed regardless of their doctrinal stances.
It's not my fault you refuse to read post 790, and you blame the Church because some people you may encounter don't practice their faith. I made that quite clear, but either you refused to read it or didn't understand what I said. You want to have Easter Sunday without Good Friday. typical.
In other words, anti-Catholics invent lies about Catholicism, and then get quoted by other anti-Catholics as if it were true.
Salvation by works alone is a heresy, but no matter how matter times it is explained, you keep pounding the same stupid drum. You're brainwashed.
In other words, what Jesus did on the Cross wasn't good enough! 
Salvation by works alone is a heresy, but no matter how matter times it is explained, you keep pounding the same stupid drum. You're brainwashed.
I appreciate your friendly reminder. But the statement and articles tab is a closed door, keeping the "fundamental protestant doctrines" in secrecy.
A standard for "fundamental protestant doctrines" doesn't exist, because no one is in authority to determine what they are. If the CC admins have there own view, fine. That would mean they have have their own on line church, and that's fine too. Their authority rests in having all the buttons.
"their belief that the RCC holds to many erroneous doctrines" is just that. Their belief. Endorsing lies, hate and insults is not a civilized way of holding to any "fundamental protestant doctrines". I get the impression that lies, hate and insults are "fundamental protestant doctrines" in themselves. I don't think you can prove otherwise. I have 13 on my ignore list because I find them too hard to stomach.
That's nice. There are a grand total of 2 regular Catholic members in here, against how many? Few or none care to discuss, they just want to attack what they erroneously think is Catholic doctrine. And RCC doctrine is not erroneous, it is thought to be erroneous, and what they are and what people think are two different things, as fordman and I have been trying to demonstrate.
I would hope so.
But a civil anti-Catholic is a contradiction in terms.
#9 Catholicism is anti Bible and Anti Christ. It is the doctrine of satan
#37 AMEN brother, not to mention that even pope John Paul 2 raised Mary up to equal deity status to Yeshua. To be so arrogant as to think that he had ANY authority to do so is pure blasphemy to YHVH.
#40 The conflict with Catholics is not with other Christians. it's with the Bible.
#45 If the catholic church was of Almighty Yahvah God then they would not change/break his commandments.
#47 the penalty of sin is not taking the eucharist, being baptized, making penance or any other sacramental dead. it is death. Only death can remove the penalty of sin. not these other works.
#48 I don't know what you read. But it was ALL over the media before he died that he raised Mary to equal status as Jesus. He even had the letter M engraved on his casket to honor her.
#49 The Paganisation of the Christianity of the Roman Catholics really started when the Roman emperor Constantine declared the Catholic Church as the only lawful religion of the empire in 313 AD declaring himself the Bishop of the church, ordained by God. This declaration opened the Roman Catholicism's door to all sort of symbiosis between Christianity and Paganism, such as Diana/Mary....You were doing better when you were anti-catholic. I suggest you return to that and get out of the bride of satan while you still can.
#56 the real question needs to be ask as to which commandment was taken out of the Catholic church's re-rendtion of God's commandments He gave to Moses? The problem is not how many, but why that particular one.
It goes on. for 41 pages.
Define given level of civility. Does this mean my reports will not be ignored?
A standard for "fundamental protestant doctrines" doesn't exist, because no one is in authority to determine what they are. If the CC admins have there own view, fine. That would mean they have have their own on line church, and that's fine too. Their authority rests in having all the buttons.
"their belief that the RCC holds to many erroneous doctrines" is just that. Their belief. Endorsing lies, hate and insults is not a civilized way of holding to any "fundamental protestant doctrines". I get the impression that lies, hate and insults are "fundamental protestant doctrines" in themselves. I don't think you can prove otherwise. I have 13 on my ignore list because I find them too hard to stomach.
That's nice. There are a grand total of 2 regular Catholic members in here, against how many? Few or none care to discuss, they just want to attack what they erroneously think is Catholic doctrine. And RCC doctrine is not erroneous, it is thought to be erroneous, and what they are and what people think are two different things, as fordman and I have been trying to demonstrate.
I would hope so.
But a civil anti-Catholic is a contradiction in terms.
#9 Catholicism is anti Bible and Anti Christ. It is the doctrine of satan
#37 AMEN brother, not to mention that even pope John Paul 2 raised Mary up to equal deity status to Yeshua. To be so arrogant as to think that he had ANY authority to do so is pure blasphemy to YHVH.
#40 The conflict with Catholics is not with other Christians. it's with the Bible.
#45 If the catholic church was of Almighty Yahvah God then they would not change/break his commandments.
#47 the penalty of sin is not taking the eucharist, being baptized, making penance or any other sacramental dead. it is death. Only death can remove the penalty of sin. not these other works.
#48 I don't know what you read. But it was ALL over the media before he died that he raised Mary to equal status as Jesus. He even had the letter M engraved on his casket to honor her.
#49 The Paganisation of the Christianity of the Roman Catholics really started when the Roman emperor Constantine declared the Catholic Church as the only lawful religion of the empire in 313 AD declaring himself the Bishop of the church, ordained by God. This declaration opened the Roman Catholicism's door to all sort of symbiosis between Christianity and Paganism, such as Diana/Mary....You were doing better when you were anti-catholic. I suggest you return to that and get out of the bride of satan while you still can.
#56 the real question needs to be ask as to which commandment was taken out of the Catholic church's re-rendtion of God's commandments He gave to Moses? The problem is not how many, but why that particular one.
It goes on. for 41 pages.
Define given level of civility. Does this mean my reports will not be ignored?
The statements and articles tab is part of the standard vBulletin template that this site does not use, not something added by CC.
A standard for doctrine does exist, it's called the Word of God.
The founding administrator is a former Catholic, so I'm quite sure he aware of RCC doctrine and this site in no way "endorses" lies, hatred, and insults.
Actually we have many more that just two regular Catholic members (some of whom I have the highest respect for) PoetMary and TomistColin are two that readily come to mind, they just appear to choose to not predominantly bury themselves in RCC vs Protestant debates.
I'm sorry that you feel that someone cannot be against specific RCC doctrines and not be civil about it. Personally I have had numerous lengthy discussions (both here and real life) with persons from the RCC (including two priests) without the discussion degrading to hurling insults.
No one's reports are ignored, in fact my interjection into this thread was specifically because of your report earlier today.
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I retract the charge of secrecy. My bad. I remember the Nicene Creed being accepted by the admins, there was a discussion about it but I can't find it. Am I correct?
A highly debatable topic as to who has the final say as to what "Word of God" means. It deserves it's own thread. May I suggest a thread split? I wish compliance with rule #6 and not make issue with you.
Well, my experience with "former Catholics" is that they become anti-Catholics. This doesn't happen with former Protestants who become Catholic. Can you guess why? So "former Catholic" could mean Catholic by default or ethnicity. "Awareness" in no way qualifies a person as an expert.
If this site in no way "endorses" lies, hatred, and insults, why does every thread with the word "Catholic" get flooded with it?.
I stand corrected. More than 2. I'll rephrase: 4 against how many? Anytime the C-word is used a swarm appears. But debate is needed, because misrepresentations (putting in mildly) dominate the entire Protestant landscape. I think it is a Christian duty to be informed before making rude assertions they learned from hate propaganda, and there is plenty of that going around. So much for Christian duty. I must be deluded.
But they can be civil about it, but it's a rare occurrence, and you know it. That's good. But that rarely happens here. Hate speech is out of control and it doesn't reflect your selective "standard for doctrine" in any good light.
That's comforting. I'll use the report feature more often. Thank you for your reply.
P.S. I would like your permission to split the thread, it's all over the map.
Well, my experience with "former Catholics" is that they become anti-Catholics. This doesn't happen with former Protestants who become Catholic. Can you guess why? So "former Catholic" could mean Catholic by default or ethnicity. "Awareness" in no way qualifies a person as an expert.
If this site in no way "endorses" lies, hatred, and insults, why does every thread with the word "Catholic" get flooded with it?.
I stand corrected. More than 2. I'll rephrase: 4 against how many? Anytime the C-word is used a swarm appears. But debate is needed, because misrepresentations (putting in mildly) dominate the entire Protestant landscape. I think it is a Christian duty to be informed before making rude assertions they learned from hate propaganda, and there is plenty of that going around. So much for Christian duty. I must be deluded.
But they can be civil about it, but it's a rare occurrence, and you know it. That's good. But that rarely happens here. Hate speech is out of control and it doesn't reflect your selective "standard for doctrine" in any good light.
That's comforting. I'll use the report feature more often. Thank you for your reply.
P.S. I would like your permission to split the thread, it's all over the map.
He means sola scriptura - the Bible alone. Something that Catholics cannot abide.
No, they become anti-error. They realize Catholic doctrine is false and is leading people to hell. It's not hate speech to have the desire to warn others, because the Bible and Catholic theology are in direct contradiction. They cannot both be right.
I myself, at one point, was a member of a cult - The Worldwide Church of God. Once I got out, I would try to get others out. They are a cult that discourages personal Bible study without running it through the filter of it's founder, Herbert W. Armstrong. Only he, and the "higher ups" had the "authority" to interpret scripture. To question them was heresy. I discovered the truth when I was challenged to simply read the Bible for myself.
And it's the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church. Only the"higher ups" (Pope, magisterium, priests, etc.) can interpret scripture. Personal Bible study apart from the church's "filters" is discouraged as well.
I live in a very Polish Catholic town. I talk to Catholics every single day at work. They never carry a Bible to Church, nor do they read it much. I've been told time and time again, that they can't understand it without being told what it means. And just like dcontroversial pointed out, every one of them that I talk to has a overwhelming fear of death. When I ask them why, they tell me, to the last, that they really don't know if they're going to "make it" because they don't know if they've "done enough" to satisfy divine justice. Their hope is Purgatory, but they also have a horrible dread about that place as well. They dread the fires and sufferings of that place.
I am not exaggerating at all, epostle. They are worn out, unhappy, have anxiety, and have an anger boiling just below the surface. I have a man I talk to very regularly, who has revealed to me that he resents the fact that he has to do so much to get to heaven. He has told me he takes some comfort in speaking to me, and that he wished that what I keep telling him is true, that salvation is a free gift if one would just accept it by faith alone. But he is terrified that if he does that, and it's wrong, all that he has accomplished will be wiped out, and he will be damned. Do you see the pattern? Catholics work, work, work, in the hopes that they've done just enough to "get there". I've seen this man so sick (he's rather old) that he should be in a hospital bed, but he drags himself to church every day, without fail, because of the FEAR he has inside.
Does that sound like "good news" to you?
No. It's not the gospel. It's a heavy yoke. A yoke of the same repetitive prayers and choreographed movements, candle lighting, bead counting, adoration of Mary, sacrificing Christ afresh on the alter every day.
It's not freedom in Christ - it's slavery to a corrupted system.
It's not hateful to warn someone of impending disaster. It's loving. If we didn't care about you, or your fellow Catholics, we would happily watch you walk off that proverbial cliff into a Christ-less eternity.
No, they become anti-error. They realize Catholic doctrine is false and is leading people to hell. It's not hate speech to have the desire to warn others, because the Bible and Catholic theology are in direct contradiction. They cannot both be right.
I myself, at one point, was a member of a cult - The Worldwide Church of God. Once I got out, I would try to get others out. They are a cult that discourages personal Bible study without running it through the filter of it's founder, Herbert W. Armstrong. Only he, and the "higher ups" had the "authority" to interpret scripture. To question them was heresy. I discovered the truth when I was challenged to simply read the Bible for myself.
And it's the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church. Only the"higher ups" (Pope, magisterium, priests, etc.) can interpret scripture. Personal Bible study apart from the church's "filters" is discouraged as well.
I live in a very Polish Catholic town. I talk to Catholics every single day at work. They never carry a Bible to Church, nor do they read it much. I've been told time and time again, that they can't understand it without being told what it means. And just like dcontroversial pointed out, every one of them that I talk to has a overwhelming fear of death. When I ask them why, they tell me, to the last, that they really don't know if they're going to "make it" because they don't know if they've "done enough" to satisfy divine justice. Their hope is Purgatory, but they also have a horrible dread about that place as well. They dread the fires and sufferings of that place.
I am not exaggerating at all, epostle. They are worn out, unhappy, have anxiety, and have an anger boiling just below the surface. I have a man I talk to very regularly, who has revealed to me that he resents the fact that he has to do so much to get to heaven. He has told me he takes some comfort in speaking to me, and that he wished that what I keep telling him is true, that salvation is a free gift if one would just accept it by faith alone. But he is terrified that if he does that, and it's wrong, all that he has accomplished will be wiped out, and he will be damned. Do you see the pattern? Catholics work, work, work, in the hopes that they've done just enough to "get there". I've seen this man so sick (he's rather old) that he should be in a hospital bed, but he drags himself to church every day, without fail, because of the FEAR he has inside.
Does that sound like "good news" to you?
No. It's not the gospel. It's a heavy yoke. A yoke of the same repetitive prayers and choreographed movements, candle lighting, bead counting, adoration of Mary, sacrificing Christ afresh on the alter every day.
It's not freedom in Christ - it's slavery to a corrupted system.
It's not hateful to warn someone of impending disaster. It's loving. If we didn't care about you, or your fellow Catholics, we would happily watch you walk off that proverbial cliff into a Christ-less eternity.
Again fordman you are showing that you really do not understand what God is saying in the Scriptures.
James 2:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The Works God is talking about in James is our work for our Justification. Its not about Works for our Salvation fordman. This is the Major problem we have with the Catholics like fordman today. Fordman HATES what God says in the Scriptures and this is why he corrupts the very Word of God to fit HIS theology that we have to work for our Salvation!
Face it fordman you are not a Born Again Christian and you will never be a Born Again person because to you the Scriptures are a joke.
James 2:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The Works God is talking about in James is our work for our Justification. Its not about Works for our Salvation fordman. This is the Major problem we have with the Catholics like fordman today. Fordman HATES what God says in the Scriptures and this is why he corrupts the very Word of God to fit HIS theology that we have to work for our Salvation!
Face it fordman you are not a Born Again Christian and you will never be a Born Again person because to you the Scriptures are a joke.
Corrupting the Word of God, epostle, is a sin!
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Teaching the commandments of the Catholic Church as Doctrines from God IS a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary was without sin is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is our mediator is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary was assumed into Heaven is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is the Mother of God is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is the Queen of Heaven is a sin epostle.
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Teaching the commandments of the Catholic Church as Doctrines from God IS a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary was without sin is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is our mediator is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary was assumed into Heaven is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is the Mother of God is a sin epostle.
Teaching that Mary is the Queen of Heaven is a sin epostle.