#241 Dan
Is it within God’s purpose to require a physical response in regard to salvation and justification? It appears that He did with regard to Abraham yet Dan tells us that the events of Genesis 15, justification by faith, and those of Genesis 22, the testing of Abraham’s faith are years apart and apparently unrelated.
The physical response in Genesis 22 followed receiving salvation and justification in Genesis 15 and were years apart, but I never said these events were unrelated. As I already explained,
Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith and was "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. You seem determined to put the cart before the horse and have Abraham saved by works.
Then Dan refers to Romans 4 to show that justification is not by works of the law. Since the law was given some 430 years after Abraham, we would agree.
Not by works of any kind and not just specific works of the law. *Since the law was given some 430 years after Abraham, your "not saved by works of the law" but "saved by good works" argument falls apart. Romans 4:2 clearly says - For
IF Abraham was justified by works, (Paul is talking about in a legal sense)
he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham
believed God, and
it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." *Keep reading. 4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who
does not work but
believes on Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom
God imputes righteousness apart from works. *That is crystal clear plain talk.
However that is not the whole story because James asks, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the
proof of faith
(SAYS-CLAIMS to have faith but has NO works/I will SHOW you my faith by my works James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
The he quotes Genesis 15:6, AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS” and tells us it was fulfilled when Abraham offered up Isaac.
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. That does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of accomplishing the work of offering up Isaac on the altar.
When Abraham performed the work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
There can be no doubt that Genesis 22:12 is applicable and relevant to Genesis 15:6. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me. (Gen. 22: 12) NASB James says anyone who thinks that faith without works is effective, is a “foolish fellow.”
I never said that Genesis 22:12 was not applicable or not relevant to Genesis 15:6. I simply said that
Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 many years before Genesis 22:12. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it
proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works,
"shown to be righteous."
How can it be that Paul tells us that we are not justified by works and James says we are? Some have erroneously, I believe, suggested that Paul was speaking of justification before God and James was speaking of justification before men? Where is that found in James 2? I don’t see it. A better solution, with scriptural support, is that Paul is speaking of works of the law and works of merit (Gal. 2: 16; Titus 3: 5) while James is speaking of works of faith and the obedience of faith. (1 Thess. 1: 3; Rom. 1:5)
*Your solution still equates to salvation by works and falls apart in Romans 4:2-6. A better solution, with scriptural support, is when Paul uses the term "justified," he is referring to the
legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1) and James is using the term to
describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). Once again, James is discussing the
proof of faith
(says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been
justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads,
"acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads,
"they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified,
"shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is
justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
I previously had already thoroughly explained 1 Thessalonians 1:3 to you and Romans 1:5. It's obedience/works produced "out of" faith, not faith is this obedience/works. You can't seem to make a distinction between faith AND obedience/works which FOLLOW faith and there is a reason for that. *Prior to my conversion, I didn't understand the difference either.
Are we surprised that James connects works and justification by faith?
It's not surprising if we correctly understand that faith is the root and works are the fruit of justification by faith. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. I'm not surprised that you remain confused and believe that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works.
Not if we understand that faith is not one dimensional, merely believing.
Faith that saves is
(belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation. Multiple acts of obedience that include acts of love which
follow faith are WORKS and we are NOT saved by works. If you believe in Christ as the all sufficient means of your salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Even though this belief results in actions appropriate to the belief - the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. By saying that faith in not one dimensional, merely believing, you are basically saying that works are inherent in faith and that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works. Because of your UNBELIEF, you remain in bondage to works salvation.
According to the Scriptures faith without love is meaningless and faith without works is dead and useless. (1 Cor. 13: 2; James 2: 17, 20)
I already previously explained this to you. Paul is stressing the importance of love and not teaching salvation through faith "plus love." Did Paul say saved through faith "and love" in Ephesians 2:8? Faith that does not work through love is not genuine faith. Just like faith that claims to be genuine yet produces no good works is not genuine saving faith but is an
empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-18). Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. As Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 13, love is the greater quality of faith, hope and love because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.
And not if we look a Abraham’s faith; the story of Abraham’s faith does not begin in Genesis 22 nor in Genesis 15. We find that in Genesis 12 that when Abraham was called, he obeyed and lived in the land of promise as an alien. (Heb. 11: 8, 9) So we find that Abraham was living a life of obedient or perfected faith when God told him in Genesis 15: 6 that his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
Abraham obeyed God in Genesis 12 when he left his country to a land that God showed him, but it was not until Genesis 15:5 when God brought Abraham outside and said,
"Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he
believed in the Lord, and He
accounted it to him for righteousness. James talks about faith being perfected in James 2:22, but this was in regards to Genesis 22. James 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he
offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and
by works faith was made perfect. Once again, faith made perfect or complete does not mean saved by works. Faith made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18.
Why did God tell Abraham, “for now I know that you fear Me?” I think Dan is right, that statement was made for our benefit and not God’s.
Amen!
God must have wanted to stress this message very much if He orders Abraham to offer Isaac. The message is, I believe, that the faith that is reckoned for righteousness is not alone, it is accompanied by love and works of faith, it is not merely believing, God requires a physical response.
Faith is reckoned for righteousness FIRST and then the physical response of offering Isaac on the altar followed AFTERWARDS. His faith did not remain alone. It was accompanied by love and works of faith, but
it was by simply believing God that his faith was reckoned for righteousness (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).
Why? So that we might have full assurance that our faith is perfected and deemed acceptable to God. It is for our benefit, not God’s. God bless.
The faith of Abraham was acceptable to God the moment that he
believed God in Genesis 15:6, even before he offered up Isaac on the altar,
just as our faith is acceptable to God the moment that we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation before we accomplish good works. So what am I supposed to do with you plain talk? I have repeatedly showed you from the scriptures that salvation is through faith and is not by works, yet you seem determined to twist the scriptures and teach that we are saved through faith AND works. When will you finally BELIEVE?