The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

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Sep 4, 2012
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Agreed - sin will affect our relationship with God, but not His relationship with us. He is absolutely committed to us - so much so that He was willing to come in the flesh and shed His own Blood.
To this I can agree and disagree. If we deny him, he will deny us. If we are simply being unfaithful, he will remain faithful to us.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Well...if one isn't a legalist..it shouldn't bother them....I read Rob Rufus's book and he is referring to his dealings with religious people that were maliciously attacking and slanderously accusing him of all kinds of things that were lies......we need to read things in context.

He also said he would love to sit down and have a calm look at the scriptures but they refused to do so. So, the accusation that he is "lumping all people in the same way that do not agree with his view of scriptures " when in fact he is describing the spirit of religion that were attacking him personally...and totally mis-representing what he was really saying..

It's the same principal as when the Lord said to the "legalists " of His day...He spoke of their ways as well....


Matthew 3:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Matthew 12:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 23:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Now if you were not a legalist with a religious mindset back in Jesus's day...His words would not offend you..

Perhaps you are taking Rob and Paul Ellis words to legalistic religious mindsets and "projecting" what is being said onto yourself? I read Rob's book and Paul Ellis as well and never once did I think they were saying " I " was in witchcraft and manipulation..etc... I did however need to repent of some religious mindsets that I did have so I embraced the truth given.

When we mis-represented "the context" in which things are said and "project" them onto ourselves - it cause all sorts of emotions to flare up.

And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means " self-occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.

I'm sure JGIG will give her own observations and feedback for you as well....God bless!








Hi JGIG,

It's been a while!

What preachers? We should name them and show examples of their lack of grace?

Rob Rufus refers to people who don't see grace as he does as "grace haters" in his book Living in the Grace of God (Milton Keynes: Authentic Media, 2007), p. 14, where he says,

"Grace haters are the legalists who will try to intimidate, manipulate and dominate people with a spirit of witchcraft. The religious spirit in them want everyone stereotyped and conformed to their own bondage. They are parrots and puppets, no longer voices for God, but echoes, not pursuing God but pursuing opportunities for position and prestige. They are cloned to act the same, dress the same and speak in the same religious tones. You know where everyone looks the same you can be sure a religious spirit is operating!"

So because I don't share his views I am motivated by the need to "intimidate, manipulate and dominate people" - and do so "with a spirit of witchcraft"! I'm a "parrot" and a "puppet" and I don't pursue God, but am motivated by position and prestige.

It's difficult to imagine less gracious words. What is extraordinary is that they are used by someone apparently "living in the grace of God".

Paul Ellis, in The Gospel in Ten Words, p.147, says that people who don't view grace as he does are preaching a "counterfeit gospel", which "will teach you to fear authority making you a target for tyrants and manipulators." So I'm a tyrant and a manipulator too, evidently.

Perhaps this is the sort of thing Phil had in mind.
 
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kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means "occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.

I was simply providing the source, Grace, which was Paul Ellis.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Cool!..I have heard that term for years but I didn't know Paul Ellis had said it too...I like to use it on myself sometimes when I'm describing myself...lol


And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means "occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.

I was simply providing the source, Grace, which was Paul Ellis.
 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
349
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Well...if one isn't a legalist..it shouldn't bother them....I read Rob Rufus's book and he is referring to his dealings with religious people that were maliciously attacking and slanderously accusing him of all kinds of things that were lies......we need to read things in context.

He also said he would love to sit down and have a calm look at the scriptures but they refused to do so. So, the accusation that he is "lumping all people in the same way that do not agree with his view of scriptures " when in fact he is describing the spirit of religion that were attacking him personally...and totally mis-representing what he was really saying..

It's the same principal as when the Lord said to the "legalists " of His day...He spoke of their ways as well....


Matthew 3:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Matthew 12:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 23:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Now if you were not a legalist with a religious mindset back in Jesus's day...His words would not offend you..

Perhaps you are taking Rob and Paul Ellis words to legalistic religious mindsets and "projecting" what is being said onto yourself? I read Rob's book and Paul Ellis as well and never once did I think they were saying " I " was in witchcraft and manipulation..etc... I did however need to repent of some religious mindsets that I did have so I embraced the truth given.

When we mis-represented "the context" in which things are said and "project" them onto ourselves - it cause all sorts of emotions to flare up.

And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means " self-occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.

I'm sure JGIG will give her own observations and feedback for you as well....God bless!
No, Grace777x70, he writes, "I cannot teach on the grace of God without addressing those who oppose grace". Anyone who doesn't share his view is referred to here. I am one of those who opposes his view, so I am meant. And his words are ungracious, which is what JGIG was replying to Phil about.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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And Jesus didn't teach without addressing those who opposed Him either...everything needs to be in context.

..I have heard Rob speak about 40 times and never once got the impression he was addressing anyone but those that were religious and malicious it their attacks when talking about those that oppose grace.

I would say there is some wrong context given in statements. His heart is for people to come to know Jesus more intimately and to fall in love with Jesus.

You should hear Rob teach about being a "grace Pharisee " which in his mind is equivalent to the religious mindset.. only in the grace community...He speaks against that mindset just as hard as the legalist.

He is definitely an equal opportunity offender...lol


No, Grace777x70, he writes, "I cannot teach on the grace of God without addressing those who oppose grace". Anyone who doesn't share his view is referred to here. I am one of those who opposes his view, so I am meant. And his words are ungracious, which is what JGIG was replying to Phil about.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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No, Grace777x70, he writes, "I cannot teach on the grace of God without addressing those who oppose grace". Anyone who doesn't share his view is referred to here. I am one of those who opposes his view, so I am meant. And his words are ungracious, which is what JGIG was replying to Phil about.
That seems quite reasonable and realistic. Can we teach of God without addressing sin?
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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God's grace is his passing over the judgment rightfully due us because of our sin,
Actually, no, that's Mercy.

Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve.

Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve.


and giving us his spirit so that we may abide in holiness until such time as we are perfected.
And that's New Life, given when we are born into the family of God, entered into by birth.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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I never said they all do, that is your false assertion !!!

You demand things from others which is not proper, as we are not to force our ways or what we want on others.

You are trying to deflect and getting off topic instead of admit some exist...........

You do know not all who follow a set doctrine or even denomination all teach the same way, and what gives you the authority over others that you want to impose ???

Again you show you did not even read what I said by your response of saying again "being told to sin", do you not understand that is not the wordage they used ??? But similar such wording is telling people their works, behavior, and such does not matter.

Things of a true saving faith do not matter, I would question that every time !!!
Here's a leading teacher of the Gospel of Grace with a message entitled, "Behavior Matters":




  • Video -
    [video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]


-JGIG
 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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That seems quite reasonable and realistic. Can we teach of God without addressing sin?
I don't see that not preaching "grace" as Rob Rufus does, equals sin though, Willy. I said that what he went on to say was not gracious. JGIG wanted evidence of this sort of thing and I provided it. He didn't stop at merely addressing it, he referred to other believers as parrots and puppets, among other things, with a spirit of witchcraft. In fact, in a bit I didn't quote, he went on to call people who disagree with him "agents of Satan who intimidate and insinuate". Grace here is conspicuous by its absence.

The point of Grace777's post was who he was addressing, which was anyone who didn't share his view. We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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I don't see that not preaching "grace" as Rob Rufus does, equals sin though, Willy. I said that what he went on to say was not gracious. JGIG wanted evidence of this sort of thing and I provided it. He didn't stop at merely addressing it, he referred to other believers as parrots and puppets, among other things, with a spirit of witchcraft. In fact, in a bit I didn't quote, he went on to call people who disagree with him "agents of Satan who intimidate and insinuate". Grace here is conspicuous by its absence.

The point of Grace777's post was who he was addressing, which was anyone who didn't share his view. We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?
Sorry. I replied to only what I saw that you wrote. I cannot reply to what you didn't put in the posts I didn't see. Of course that kind of talk is extreme and unnecessary. As I wrote in the new "Wisdom Quotes" thread, "Our enemy is not people, our enemy will always be the enemy."
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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But holiness can become defiled. The old covenant clearly teaches that. Cleansing is required when that happens.
You're absolutely right - under the Old Covenant, cleansing - over and over and over again, was required, because the sacrifices that were offered only cleansed one until the next sin.

That was what the blood of bulls and goats accomplished.

The Blood of Christ, however, cleanses once for all, for all time, those who put their faith in Him.

The entire letter to the Hebrews is a treatise on the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ - His completely efficacious Work.

Repeated forgiveness and cleansing requires repeated sacrifices and the shedding of more blood.

That is not necessary in the New Covenant - the Blood of Christ was more than enough to provide forgiveness for the sins of the whole world. Every sin. For all time.

A technical detail. We are made holy by the spirit. If we defile the vessel, the defilement must be cleansed. Everything in the old covenant is a shadow of realities in the new covenant.
How is it cleansed?
By the spirit and the blood.
The Blood cleanses; the Spirit indwells.

Again, what must happen for blood to cleanse? It must be shed - in the Old Covenant, repeatedly. In the New Covenant ONE TIME.

If one says that there is a sin that must still be cleansed, one is saying that 1) they either need to offer an animal sacrifice, or 2) that Christ must come and shed His Blood again.

I know you know that neither of those are an option, and the letter to the Hebrews tells us why:

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Hebrews 10)

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (from Hebrews 7)

-JGIG
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Here's a leading teacher of the Gospel of Grace with a message entitled, "Behavior Matters":




  • Video -
    [video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]


-JGIG

MMmm interesting, Mr Farley does indeed highlight the problems with exagerated grace/hyper grace movement. Oh and yes I have watched a few of his videos.. His presentation on 1 John is very lacking and in error. Just the usual rehashof believers dont worry its not for you.

Anyhow, The more I delve into the hyper grace/exagerated grace movement the more it becomes apparent of just how much in error it is. Not only is it Antinomian (in the 3rd use of the law) - it also really has built upon and taken its lead from Keswick theology - especially if you read Mr Farley. It is good that there are many believers ready to critique this erroneous movement.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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MMmm interesting, Mr Farley does indeed highlight the problems with exagerated grace/hyper grace movement. Oh and yes I have watched a few of his videos.. His presentation on 1 John is very lacking and in error. Just the usual rehashof believers dont worry its not for you.

Anyhow, The more I delve into the hyper grace/exagerated grace movement the more it becomes apparent of just how much in error it is. Not only is it Antinomian (in the 3rd use of the law) - it also really has built upon and taken its lead from Keswick theology - especially if you read Mr Farley. It is good that there are many believers ready to critique this erroneous movement.
From my experience with new.modern.hyper grace teaching, behavior only matters in this life. It has no bearing on eternal life. In other words, sin may cause one to experience bad things in this life, or die, but it can never jeopardize salvation.

So in essence, behavior doesn't matter. The same as the gnostics thought. But to say openly that behavior doesn't matter would not draw the tithing crowds and book buyers.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
You're absolutely right - under the Old Covenant, cleansing - over and over and over again, was required, because the sacrifices that were offered only cleansed one until the next sin.

That was what the blood of bulls and goats accomplished.

The Blood of Christ, however, cleanses once for all, for all time, those who put their faith in Him.

The entire letter to the Hebrews is a treatise on the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ - His completely efficacious Work.

Repeated forgiveness and cleansing requires repeated sacrifices and the shedding of more blood.

That is not necessary in the New Covenant - the Blood of Christ was more than enough to provide forgiveness for the sins of the whole world. Every sin. For all time.







The Blood cleanses; the Spirit indwells.

Again, what must happen for blood to cleanse? It must be shed - in the Old Covenant, repeatedly. In the New Covenant ONE TIME.

If one says that there is a sin that must still be cleansed, one is saying that 1) they either need to offer an animal sacrifice, or 2) that Christ must come and shed His Blood again.

I know you know that neither of those are an option, and the letter to the Hebrews tells us why:
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Hebrews 10)

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (from Hebrews 7)

-JGIG
There is also another very relevant verse here. Christ died once and for all. If we fall away from the true faith(Christ alone) and think that we can lose salvation or have to be resaved............we are putting Him to open shame.

New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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A few questions based on what you wrote above, and then consider how the answers to these questions might change what you've written above:


  • Is abiding in Christ a continued act of our will AFTER our salvation or is it the reality after our re-birth?


  • Is abiding in Christ and resting in Christ the same thing?


  • Would you agree that when someone puts their faith in Christ that the circumcision is a circumcision of the heart? The Old is cut away and the New is put in place (this is the New Birth/New Creation)? If you do agree with that, Who performed that change? Are there any passages that show that God EVER revokes that act of spiritual circumcision?


  • Judgment for sin in the Old Testament was before the Work of the Cross. Do you believe that those in Christ - those who have received the forgiveness/cleansing for all unrighteousness - will be judged for sins already bled and died for? Would that not be judging the same sins twice - once in Christ and once in us, and be an unjust act, putting the Blood of Christ to shame, indicating that the Blood of Christ was NOT ENOUGH?

Thanks for considering the above,
-JGIG
Thanks for your gentle nature, sincere, and genuine spirit in expressing yourself and your beliefs and convictions on this matter. I will attempt to answer in order of the questions:

1. Abide means to remain, to stay. It's an action verb. Jesus said in John 6:56, 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. Eating and drinking is a continuous process we do to live. What does Jesus say we must do to abide in Him? Is this not something we do? Is this not a spiritual action of faith? If Jesus wanted it a one time process He could have said he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood is in me, and I in him. What happens if we don't continue to eat His flesh and drink His blood? Where is the promise of Him still abiding is us? Just things to think about JGIG, I don't expect you to break that out to answer each questions. The second part, abiding in Christ is a reality of our re-birth, same as not abiding in Christ is a reality of Christ not in us. My answer in short, I would say it's both.

2. Yes, I think abiding in Christ and resting in Christ is the same thing. We are resting in the fact that Jesus paid the penalty in full, it's an act of belief and faith. If we abandon that faith and belief, I see "no guarantee of eternal salvation" statement in the bible. You might say they were never re-born/resting in Christ then, and I would ask you how do you know that?

3. The circumcised heart of a believer is a sign of re-birth. Just as physical circumcision (the type) for OT believers was a covenantal sign for being in the promise to Abraham, so is a spiritual circumcised heart (the anti-type) a sign for NT believers that they are in the New Covenant (which is the OT covenant fulfilled in Christ). If an Israelite did not get circumcised, they were killed or put out of the covenant. Thus I think if a professing Christian doesn't have a circumcised heart (their actions will demonstrate where their heart is) they are put out of the kingdom. Their actions will be evident by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Although a non believer may show or have better morals then a new Christian or one who's been in the faith awhile (because salvation isn't based on works) the believer is justified by faith and should demonstrated signs of spiritual growth.

4. Judgment for sin in the OT is the same in the new. The only thing that reverses the judgment we rightly deserve is our belief and faith in the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. The OT animal sacrifices was a type for the ultimate sacrifice of Christ (the anti-type). These OT Animal sacrifices only covered for sin committed in human ignorance not blatant-willful sin (look it up in the OT if you don't believe me). OT saints were saved by their genuine repentance and faith in the type, the blood of Jesus is retroactive. Although animal sacrifices never really could atone for sin, it was a picture of the more and all powerful sacrifice of Jesus in which covers all past sins of any kind, it IMO does not cover the sins of ongoing unrepentant willful sin (this is the display of non-circumcised heart- you might call this the unforgivable sin), , but sins committed in human weakness, thus Jesus is always making intercession for our sins.. Can we be forgiven of willful sin, yes, if it our intent never to go back to it in a willful manner. God knows when or if our repentance is authentic or not, and he knows our weaknesses.

Is not Jesus continually making intercession for us before the Father (1 John 2:1)? Now if the once for all sins sacrifice of Jesus cover all future sins, why would John say such a thing? Does God have to be reminded that Jesus paid the penalty every time we sin? Granted I don't believe I have to ask for forgiveness every time I sin to stay saved, because I never lost faith in that Jesus Paid for my sin, because of my position in Christ + because of my desire to obey and serve Him. I may sound like I support both OSAS and that one can lose their salvation. It's really a complex subject, that's why we have all the debates about it. I don't know it all, and I could be wrong. But I think God's Grace bigger and more powerful then my possible error or yours on this subject. Therefore I stick to this- our eternal salvation is Secure in Christ, outside of Christ I see no guarantee.
 
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Feb 7, 2015
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From my experience with new.modern.hyper grace teaching, behavior only matters in this life. It has no bearing on eternal life. In other words, sin may cause one to experience bad things in this life, or die, but it can never jeopardize salvation.

So in essence, behavior doesn't matter. The same as the gnostics thought. But to say openly that behavior doesn't matter would not draw the tithing crowds and book buyers.
I really do wish you guys would quit that generalization. Hardly anyone in our congregation has a car newer than 5 years old... most are ten or more. And I happen to drive an '88 while my wife drives a '99. Our preacher doesn't even make $40k a year. 80% of the people we concentrate on "drawing" to get the massive tithes you keep complaining about don't even live in houses... they are in shelters and under bridges.