The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
- Thread starter HeRoseFromTheDead
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well...if one isn't a legalist..it shouldn't bother them....I read Rob Rufus's book and he is referring to his dealings with religious people that were maliciously attacking and slanderously accusing him of all kinds of things that were lies......we need to read things in context.
He also said he would love to sit down and have a calm look at the scriptures but they refused to do so. So, the accusation that he is "lumping all people in the same way that do not agree with his view of scriptures " when in fact he is describing the spirit of religion that were attacking him personally...and totally mis-representing what he was really saying..
It's the same principal as when the Lord said to the "legalists " of His day...He spoke of their ways as well....
Matthew 3:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 23:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Now if you were not a legalist with a religious mindset back in Jesus's day...His words would not offend you..
Perhaps you are taking Rob and Paul Ellis words to legalistic religious mindsets and "projecting" what is being said onto yourself? I read Rob's book and Paul Ellis as well and never once did I think they were saying " I " was in witchcraft and manipulation..etc... I did however need to repent of some religious mindsets that I did have so I embraced the truth given.
When we mis-represented "the context" in which things are said and "project" them onto ourselves - it cause all sorts of emotions to flare up.
And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means " self-occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.
I'm sure JGIG will give her own observations and feedback for you as well....God bless!
He also said he would love to sit down and have a calm look at the scriptures but they refused to do so. So, the accusation that he is "lumping all people in the same way that do not agree with his view of scriptures " when in fact he is describing the spirit of religion that were attacking him personally...and totally mis-representing what he was really saying..
It's the same principal as when the Lord said to the "legalists " of His day...He spoke of their ways as well....
Matthew 3:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 23:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Now if you were not a legalist with a religious mindset back in Jesus's day...His words would not offend you..
Perhaps you are taking Rob and Paul Ellis words to legalistic religious mindsets and "projecting" what is being said onto yourself? I read Rob's book and Paul Ellis as well and never once did I think they were saying " I " was in witchcraft and manipulation..etc... I did however need to repent of some religious mindsets that I did have so I embraced the truth given.
When we mis-represented "the context" in which things are said and "project" them onto ourselves - it cause all sorts of emotions to flare up.
And for goodness sakes.."navel-gazing" is just a term that means " self-occupied " with yourself inwardly...when we should be Christ-focused.
I'm sure JGIG will give her own observations and feedback for you as well....God bless!
Last edited:
And Jesus didn't teach without addressing those who opposed Him either...everything needs to be in context.
..I have heard Rob speak about 40 times and never once got the impression he was addressing anyone but those that were religious and malicious it their attacks when talking about those that oppose grace.
I would say there is some wrong context given in statements. His heart is for people to come to know Jesus more intimately and to fall in love with Jesus.
You should hear Rob teach about being a "grace Pharisee " which in his mind is equivalent to the religious mindset.. only in the grace community...He speaks against that mindset just as hard as the legalist.
He is definitely an equal opportunity offender...lol
..I have heard Rob speak about 40 times and never once got the impression he was addressing anyone but those that were religious and malicious it their attacks when talking about those that oppose grace.
I would say there is some wrong context given in statements. His heart is for people to come to know Jesus more intimately and to fall in love with Jesus.
You should hear Rob teach about being a "grace Pharisee " which in his mind is equivalent to the religious mindset.. only in the grace community...He speaks against that mindset just as hard as the legalist.
He is definitely an equal opportunity offender...lol
I don't see that not preaching "grace" as Rob Rufus does, equals sin though, Willy. I said that what he went on to say was not gracious. JGIG wanted evidence of this sort of thing and I provided it. He didn't stop at merely addressing it, he referred to other believers as parrots and puppets, among other things, with a spirit of witchcraft. In fact, in a bit I didn't quote, he went on to call people who disagree with him "agents of Satan who intimidate and insinuate". Grace here is conspicuous by its absence.
The point of Grace777's post was who he was addressing, which was anyone who didn't share his view. We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?
The point of Grace777's post was who he was addressing, which was anyone who didn't share his view. We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?
You're absolutely right - under the Old Covenant, cleansing - over and over and over again, was required, because the sacrifices that were offered only cleansed one until the next sin.
That was what the blood of bulls and goats accomplished.
The Blood of Christ, however, cleanses once for all, for all time, those who put their faith in Him.
The entire letter to the Hebrews is a treatise on the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ - His completely efficacious Work.
Repeated forgiveness and cleansing requires repeated sacrifices and the shedding of more blood.
That is not necessary in the New Covenant - the Blood of Christ was more than enough to provide forgiveness for the sins of the whole world. Every sin. For all time.
The Blood cleanses; the Spirit indwells.
Again, what must happen for blood to cleanse? It must be shed - in the Old Covenant, repeatedly. In the New Covenant ONE TIME.
If one says that there is a sin that must still be cleansed, one is saying that 1) they either need to offer an animal sacrifice, or 2) that Christ must come and shed His Blood again.
I know you know that neither of those are an option, and the letter to the Hebrews tells us why:
-JGIG
That was what the blood of bulls and goats accomplished.
The Blood of Christ, however, cleanses once for all, for all time, those who put their faith in Him.
The entire letter to the Hebrews is a treatise on the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ - His completely efficacious Work.
Repeated forgiveness and cleansing requires repeated sacrifices and the shedding of more blood.
That is not necessary in the New Covenant - the Blood of Christ was more than enough to provide forgiveness for the sins of the whole world. Every sin. For all time.
The Blood cleanses; the Spirit indwells.
Again, what must happen for blood to cleanse? It must be shed - in the Old Covenant, repeatedly. In the New Covenant ONE TIME.
If one says that there is a sin that must still be cleansed, one is saying that 1) they either need to offer an animal sacrifice, or 2) that Christ must come and shed His Blood again.
I know you know that neither of those are an option, and the letter to the Hebrews tells us why:
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Hebrews 10)
26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (from Hebrews 7)
-JGIG
MMmm interesting, Mr Farley does indeed highlight the problems with exagerated grace/hyper grace movement. Oh and yes I have watched a few of his videos.. His presentation on 1 John is very lacking and in error. Just the usual rehashof believers dont worry its not for you.
Anyhow, The more I delve into the hyper grace/exagerated grace movement the more it becomes apparent of just how much in error it is. Not only is it Antinomian (in the 3rd use of the law) - it also really has built upon and taken its lead from Keswick theology - especially if you read Mr Farley. It is good that there are many believers ready to critique this erroneous movement.
From my experience with new.modern.hyper grace teaching, behavior only matters in this life. It has no bearing on eternal life. In other words, sin may cause one to experience bad things in this life, or die, but it can never jeopardize salvation.
So in essence, behavior doesn't matter. The same as the gnostics thought. But to say openly that behavior doesn't matter would not draw the tithing crowds and book buyers.
So in essence, behavior doesn't matter. The same as the gnostics thought. But to say openly that behavior doesn't matter would not draw the tithing crowds and book buyers.
G
There is also another very relevant verse here. Christ died once and for all. If we fall away from the true faith(Christ alone) and think that we can lose salvation or have to be resaved............we are putting Him to open shame.
New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Thanks for your gentle nature, sincere, and genuine spirit in expressing yourself and your beliefs and convictions on this matter. I will attempt to answer in order of the questions:
1. Abide means to remain, to stay. It's an action verb. Jesus said in John 6:56, 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. Eating and drinking is a continuous process we do to live. What does Jesus say we must do to abide in Him? Is this not something we do? Is this not a spiritual action of faith? If Jesus wanted it a one time process He could have said he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood is in me, and I in him. What happens if we don't continue to eat His flesh and drink His blood? Where is the promise of Him still abiding is us? Just things to think about JGIG, I don't expect you to break that out to answer each questions. The second part, abiding in Christ is a reality of our re-birth, same as not abiding in Christ is a reality of Christ not in us. My answer in short, I would say it's both.
2. Yes, I think abiding in Christ and resting in Christ is the same thing. We are resting in the fact that Jesus paid the penalty in full, it's an act of belief and faith. If we abandon that faith and belief, I see "no guarantee of eternal salvation" statement in the bible. You might say they were never re-born/resting in Christ then, and I would ask you how do you know that?
3. The circumcised heart of a believer is a sign of re-birth. Just as physical circumcision (the type) for OT believers was a covenantal sign for being in the promise to Abraham, so is a spiritual circumcised heart (the anti-type) a sign for NT believers that they are in the New Covenant (which is the OT covenant fulfilled in Christ). If an Israelite did not get circumcised, they were killed or put out of the covenant. Thus I think if a professing Christian doesn't have a circumcised heart (their actions will demonstrate where their heart is) they are put out of the kingdom. Their actions will be evident by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Although a non believer may show or have better morals then a new Christian or one who's been in the faith awhile (because salvation isn't based on works) the believer is justified by faith and should demonstrated signs of spiritual growth.
4. Judgment for sin in the OT is the same in the new. The only thing that reverses the judgment we rightly deserve is our belief and faith in the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. The OT animal sacrifices was a type for the ultimate sacrifice of Christ (the anti-type). These OT Animal sacrifices only covered for sin committed in human ignorance not blatant-willful sin (look it up in the OT if you don't believe me). OT saints were saved by their genuine repentance and faith in the type, the blood of Jesus is retroactive. Although animal sacrifices never really could atone for sin, it was a picture of the more and all powerful sacrifice of Jesus in which covers all past sins of any kind, it IMO does not cover the sins of ongoing unrepentant willful sin (this is the display of non-circumcised heart- you might call this the unforgivable sin), , but sins committed in human weakness, thus Jesus is always making intercession for our sins.. Can we be forgiven of willful sin, yes, if it our intent never to go back to it in a willful manner. God knows when or if our repentance is authentic or not, and he knows our weaknesses.
Is not Jesus continually making intercession for us before the Father (1 John 2:1)? Now if the once for all sins sacrifice of Jesus cover all future sins, why would John say such a thing? Does God have to be reminded that Jesus paid the penalty every time we sin? Granted I don't believe I have to ask for forgiveness every time I sin to stay saved, because I never lost faith in that Jesus Paid for my sin, because of my position in Christ + because of my desire to obey and serve Him. I may sound like I support both OSAS and that one can lose their salvation. It's really a complex subject, that's why we have all the debates about it. I don't know it all, and I could be wrong. But I think God's Grace bigger and more powerful then my possible error or yours on this subject. Therefore I stick to this- our eternal salvation is Secure in Christ, outside of Christ I see no guarantee.
1. Abide means to remain, to stay. It's an action verb. Jesus said in John 6:56, 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. Eating and drinking is a continuous process we do to live. What does Jesus say we must do to abide in Him? Is this not something we do? Is this not a spiritual action of faith? If Jesus wanted it a one time process He could have said he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood is in me, and I in him. What happens if we don't continue to eat His flesh and drink His blood? Where is the promise of Him still abiding is us? Just things to think about JGIG, I don't expect you to break that out to answer each questions. The second part, abiding in Christ is a reality of our re-birth, same as not abiding in Christ is a reality of Christ not in us. My answer in short, I would say it's both.
2. Yes, I think abiding in Christ and resting in Christ is the same thing. We are resting in the fact that Jesus paid the penalty in full, it's an act of belief and faith. If we abandon that faith and belief, I see "no guarantee of eternal salvation" statement in the bible. You might say they were never re-born/resting in Christ then, and I would ask you how do you know that?
3. The circumcised heart of a believer is a sign of re-birth. Just as physical circumcision (the type) for OT believers was a covenantal sign for being in the promise to Abraham, so is a spiritual circumcised heart (the anti-type) a sign for NT believers that they are in the New Covenant (which is the OT covenant fulfilled in Christ). If an Israelite did not get circumcised, they were killed or put out of the covenant. Thus I think if a professing Christian doesn't have a circumcised heart (their actions will demonstrate where their heart is) they are put out of the kingdom. Their actions will be evident by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Although a non believer may show or have better morals then a new Christian or one who's been in the faith awhile (because salvation isn't based on works) the believer is justified by faith and should demonstrated signs of spiritual growth.
4. Judgment for sin in the OT is the same in the new. The only thing that reverses the judgment we rightly deserve is our belief and faith in the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. The OT animal sacrifices was a type for the ultimate sacrifice of Christ (the anti-type). These OT Animal sacrifices only covered for sin committed in human ignorance not blatant-willful sin (look it up in the OT if you don't believe me). OT saints were saved by their genuine repentance and faith in the type, the blood of Jesus is retroactive. Although animal sacrifices never really could atone for sin, it was a picture of the more and all powerful sacrifice of Jesus in which covers all past sins of any kind, it IMO does not cover the sins of ongoing unrepentant willful sin (this is the display of non-circumcised heart- you might call this the unforgivable sin), , but sins committed in human weakness, thus Jesus is always making intercession for our sins.. Can we be forgiven of willful sin, yes, if it our intent never to go back to it in a willful manner. God knows when or if our repentance is authentic or not, and he knows our weaknesses.
Is not Jesus continually making intercession for us before the Father (1 John 2:1)? Now if the once for all sins sacrifice of Jesus cover all future sins, why would John say such a thing? Does God have to be reminded that Jesus paid the penalty every time we sin? Granted I don't believe I have to ask for forgiveness every time I sin to stay saved, because I never lost faith in that Jesus Paid for my sin, because of my position in Christ + because of my desire to obey and serve Him. I may sound like I support both OSAS and that one can lose their salvation. It's really a complex subject, that's why we have all the debates about it. I don't know it all, and I could be wrong. But I think God's Grace bigger and more powerful then my possible error or yours on this subject. Therefore I stick to this- our eternal salvation is Secure in Christ, outside of Christ I see no guarantee.
Last edited:
I really do wish you guys would quit that generalization. Hardly anyone in our congregation has a car newer than 5 years old... most are ten or more. And I happen to drive an '88 while my wife drives a '99. Our preacher doesn't even make $40k a year. 80% of the people we concentrate on "drawing" to get the massive tithes you keep complaining about don't even live in houses... they are in shelters and under bridges.