The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[JGIG]

Amen JGIG! Nice post with beautiful verses! I was thinking of this very thing this morning while getting up and having coffee. A message on grace was on the tv and it was just so wonderful and lovely to be reminded yet again the way Jesus did it all for us. So sad the way humans think they can do any of it. Since Jesus went to the cross and got us out of the mess Adam dunked the human race in. And then seeing the refinement of sin over the years has gotten more ugly.

How come people believe Adam's sin could totally doooom the whole human race from generation to generation by his and Eve's rebellion and sin... Sin with it's associated counter part - death..and it came upon us all with the rest of the ugly mess; illness, misery, confusion, fear, weakness, deformity, distortion, hatred., ugliness.....etc... But people will NOT believe that JESUS by HIS perfect and holy power and authority could completely reverse and SAVE us from that doom?? Is Adam's sin stronger than God's love and Jesus blood?? NO WAY!

God in His grace devised the plan of salvation. Now all in Christ are 100% saved from the horrible fate of sin with it's accompanying horrors. Why do believers even resist the truth of God's power in His love in grace for us. Why not accept the fact that Jesus' love and sacrifice is stronger than Adam's sin? It's all there for us to see in the Bible if we move aside and look.

I think when Christians keep hearing about the grace of God that brings salvation AND hear it A LOT,they will be set free. From the time we get up to the time we go back to sleep to get His Word in our minds, it is then we can step over that barrier that causes us to look at our selves and not Jesus.
To release that fear that they might be mistaken that grace is just too good to be true. That the Holy Spirit will demolish that strong hold of religion.,cast down those human imaginations of doubt and fear. That is what it took for me to finally see the full and free grace of God.

Desperation to be rescued from self. Then we are actually supposed to "REST" !! That just sounds shocking that God wants us to rest!? But as you posted here JGIG that is what we are to do!! One of the things this preacher said this morning was that the greatest thing we can do as believers is to REST IN Christ. That brings honor to Him because it shows we are no longer striving in ourselves but resting IN Christ's ability to save us completely.

Then the works come as a natural fruit of being filled to overflowing. Only God could make up a plan like that. "Love goes where law cannot" Amen. You do sound like one who is JoyfullyGrowingInGrace

Yes! Amen!

And thank you for your refreshing affirmation of Grace this morning \o/!

-JoyfullyGrowingInGrace

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Gnostics taught that the physical didn't matter, that Christ wasn't God in the flesh, and a bunch of other weird stuff. Defining Gnosticism comprehensively is somewhat like nailing Jello to a wall. Makes for a convenient label to throw at something one doesn't understand.

You're just regurgitating new.modern.hyper grace talking points. I've heard it before. Go read the OP to find out what they also believed in the early church period. Almost identical to new.modern.hyper grace beliefs.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...so true..and it is hard to not "imagine " that graphic scene....

Not to be too graphic here, but a foreskin can not be retrieved and glued back on. It is a permanent physical alteration. Can remaining skin be stretched? Yes, but it does not result in a reversal of circumcision - that part of the anatomy has been discarded and is dead - permanently severed.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Not to be too graphic here, but a foreskin can not be retrieved and glued back on. It is a permanent physical alteration. Can remaining skin be stretched? Yes, but it does not result in a reversal of circumcision - that part of the anatomy has been discarded and is dead - permanently severed.

-JGIG

You really should have more respect for me and go search out the matter before reiterating a fallacy based on your own misunderstanding. You will find that I'm right.

 

[ladylynn]

Starting in 2013, a manufactured label, ‘Hyper-Grace’, was made popular and applied to the Gospel of Grace. Personally, I embrace the term, because in my opinion, the Living God coming to Earth as a man to die for our sin and bear the judgement due us, and then to give those who believe the gift of Righteousness and New Life in order to reconcile us to Himself is a pretty Hyper Grace!

That aside, not all believers embrace the term, and many are uncomfortable with the concept of pure Grace. Rather those who mix Law and Grace use the term as a derogatory label, on which they pile false accusations about what the Gospel of Grace is and how those who walk in Grace live their lives.
​

The above is from an article I wrote nearly 2 years ago. You can read more here if you wish:

What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???
Posted on February 26, 2014 by JGIG
​

So the 'Hyper-Grace' label, though intended as a derogatory term, actually more accurately describes God's Gospel of Grace manifested in the Work of Christ.

Scripture itself confirms that God's Grace is 'hyper':

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (G5248 - hyperperisseuō): (from Romans 5:20)​

G5248 - hyperperisseuō

​

1. to abound beyond measure, abound exceedingly
2. to overflow, to enjoy abundantly

And yes, Grace teaches us \o/!

Grace does not demand, nor does it condemn us when we fail. With never-ending patience, Grace teaches us to, as another translation puts it in Titus 2,

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It [Grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Titus 2)
​

Couple that with these Scriptures:

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (from Eph. 4)

8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. (from Col. 3)
​

And you can see that learning to say 'No' to ungodliness is a process - and for ALL of us it is a life-long process as we are being renewed - recognizing more and more who we are in Christ. This is the renewing of our minds.

Putting our focus on ourselves is a mistake - we are exhorted to do the following as believers:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. (from Hebrews 12)​

The throwing off of hindrances is possible only if we're fixing our eyes on Jesus, not on self, for HE is the pioneer (other translations say author) and perfecter of faith.

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)​

Sometimes we're going to sin. Some may live in a pattern of sin for a period of time in their lives. Those who live under a system of Law or a circle of denominational or an ideological circle of laws will actually sin more because the Bible says that law arouses sinful passions (Rom. 7).

Live by the Spirit and His Grace and sin will be reduced in your life.

Why?

Because Grace teaches us.

What does law actually do for us?

Nothing except point out our sin. It does nothing to keep us from sinning, it simply sits there accusing us when we do sin.

Grace provides a redemptive context when we do sin - the Work of Christ and who we are in Him - and assures us thus:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (from 1 Jn. 2)​

And that advocacy relies on who He is, not on what we do or do not do:

25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)​

That's what the Gospel of Grace teaches in a nutshell - Fix your eyes on Jesus:

• Who Jesus is
• What He came to do
• What that actually accomplished, and
• Who we are in Him

Out of grasping those Truths and fixing our eyes on Christ, REST comes, and then His Fruit \o/!

-JGIG

Awesome! Just getting caught up on some of these posts. Amen so good to have you here JGIG!! What a blessing to read more about Jesus and His grace and power to save!!!

 

[JGIG]

No, you folks are the ones engaging in double talk. On one hand you say that sin is bad (because it harms this earthly life), and then on the other hand say that sin isn't bad (because it can't harm eternal life). That's exactly what the gnostics believed.

Where have I EVER said that sin isn't bad?

I wrote:

Sin is dumb and destructive. It does harm to us, to others, and to the Kingdom.

When we, as believers, sin, we're not bearing His Fruit. When we're not bearing Fruit, we aren't loving and serving and bringing the Lost into Christ.

There is great eternal harm done there!

Where we differ is here:

• You believe that you can sin your way out of salvation, sullying the gift of righteousness to the point where it is no longer valid.
• I believe that every sin was dealt with at the Cross, providing forgiveness for all who choose to receive it, and that the gift of righteousness that we are given is incorruptible, because it's not my righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ.

Is sin bad? You bet. But it is swallowed up and dealt with by super-abounding Grace - hyperperisseuō \o/!


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You're just regurgitating new.modern.hyper grace talking points. I've heard it before. Go read the OP to find out what they also believed in the early church period. Almost identical to new.modern.hyper grace beliefs.

Sigh. No, HRFTD. You've got it wrong on this one.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sigh. No, HRFTD. You've got it wrong on this one.

-JGIG

That's what they all say, but they can't refute the evidence.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Where we differ is here:

• You believe that you can sin your way out of salvation, sullying the gift of righteousness to the point where it is no longer valid.
• I believe that every sin was dealt with at the Cross, providing forgiveness for all who choose to receive it, and that the gift of righteousness that we are given is incorruptible, because it's not my righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ.

That's exactly what the gnostics believed.

... [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance [i.e., the new birth, salvation, etc.], whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
​

 

[JGIG]

Where have I EVER said that sin isn't bad?

I wrote:

Sin is dumb and destructive. It does harm to us, to others, and to the Kingdom.

When we, as believers, sin, we're not bearing His Fruit. When we're not bearing Fruit, we aren't loving and serving and bringing the Lost into Christ.

There is great eternal harm done there!

Where we differ is here:

• You believe that you can sin your way out of salvation, sullying the gift of righteousness to the point where it is no longer valid.
• I believe that every sin was dealt with at the Cross, providing forgiveness for all who choose to receive it, and that the gift of righteousness that we are given is incorruptible, because it's not my righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ.

Is sin bad? You bet. But it is swallowed up and dealt with by super-abounding Grace - hyperperisseuō \o/!


-JGIG

That's exactly what the gnostics believed.

... [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance [i.e., the new birth, salvation, etc.], whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
​

HRFTD, where do you see where Gnostics have received and are relying on the Righteousness of Christ? I don't see it.

Gnosticism is a very self-focused belief system.

The Gospel of Grace is the polar opposite of that.

The association you're attempting to make between Gnosticism and 'Hyper-Grace' is flawed at the core.

-JGIG

 

[ladylynn]

I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of ourselves in Christ as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness ).

Amen., That is exactly what the Lord brought me to as well. That post should be posted on a regular basis And it comes back to the washing of the WORD. We have to read our Bibles as a matter of need and dependence. Am seeing that coming to CC is a help in this area because we meet with so many who are bound up in the mis interpretation of the Bible. Like us when we were trying to 'work out our own salvation' by our works, they are seeking but just not hearing about grace. Many churches preach the law when they should be preaching grace.

It is also such a good thing to be meeting together with other grace minded believers. To see others have been freed from the harnesses of works to the freedom that Christ bought for us so we can go before God freely without hesitation focusing on Christ always.

1 Cor. 1:30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, (revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as) our Righteousness (thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God), and our Consecration (making us pure and holy), and our Redemption (providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin)
31.
So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord.

Amplified Bible

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

HRFTD, where do you see where Gnostics have received and are relying on the Righteousness of Christ? I don't see it.
Gnosticism is a very self-focused belief system.
The Gospel of Grace is the polar opposite of that.

The association you're attempting to make between Gnosticism and 'Hyper-Grace' is flawed at the core.

-JGIG

So is new.modern.hyper grace. It focuses on one's identity and incorruptible spiritual nature, rather than Christ.

 

[JGIG]

HRFTD, where do you see where Gnostics have received and are relying on the Righteousness of Christ? I don't see it.

Gnosticism is a very self-focused belief system.

The Gospel of Grace is the polar opposite of that.

The association you're attempting to make between Gnosticism and 'Hyper-Grace' is flawed at the core.

-JGIG

So is new.modern.hyper grace. It focuses on one's identity and incorruptible spiritual nature, rather than Christ.

The Gospel of Grace focuses on one's identity IN CHRIST and HIS incorruptible spiritual nature.

sheesh.
_______________________

As much as I love communicating about Jesus and His Grace, I need to go. Laundry, sorting, filing, phone calls, and general tidying are on the agenda today - I must get my house in order and the holiday weekend is really over now . I may or may not pop in later . . . I have so much to do while I'm home this week . . .

My prayer is that each of you would continue to press in to Christ and who you are in Him.

Grace and peace to you as you continue on with the discussion!

Much love in Christ,
-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

This is a fallacy. Restoring circumcision to uncircumcision was actually practiced in new testament times. Jewish athletes who competed naked in Greek/Roman events were so mortified when the crowds would make fun of them for being circumcised that many of them had their circumcision reversed. Paul was probably referring to this procedure when he said.

Was anyone called [after] being circumcised? He must not undo his circumcision. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised. 1 Corinthians 7:18​

Oh my goodness! You aren't circumcised, are you? (That medicine the doctor has you on is good for you. Please take it when you are supposed to.)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Gospel of Grace focuses on one's identity IN CHRIST and HIS incorruptible spiritual nature.

The only time those who walk in GOD's grace should focus on their own identity is to acknowledge that they are sinful beings. All other times their eyes should be on who Christ is, and not on their own identity.

 

[Willie-T]

The only time those who walk in GOD's grace should focus on their own identity is to acknowledge that they are sinful beings. All other times their eyes should be on who Christ is, and not on their own identity.

Yet you constantly state that you need to maintain your behavior consistently.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Oh my goodness! You aren't circumcised, are you? (That medicine the doctor has you on is good for you. Please take it when you are supposed to.)

Good grief people are lazy.

"In Hellenistic culture the exposing of the glans penis was seen as obscene. When a circumcised male exposed himself by bearing the sign of the covenant in the public baths or in the gymnasiums, from gymnos meaning "naked," the Greeks saw it as lewd and indecent behavior. To the Greek mind such behavior was disgusting.
...
"In this culture the exposing of the glans penis was not only offensive but an open invitation for ostracism. Societal stress was so great that young Hellenistic Jews occasionally undertook to reverse the fact of circumcision by undergoing the painful and traumatic operation known as epispasm to "uncircumcised" themselves in order to be accepted.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yet you constantly state that you need to maintain your behavior consistently.

That's not focusing on identity (an image in the mind). It's focusing on Christ and being careful what you do.

 

[Willie-T]

Good grief people are lazy.

"In Hellenistic culture the exposing of the glans penis was seen as obscene. When a circumcised male exposed himself by bearing the sign of the covenant in the public baths or in the gymnasiums, from gymnos meaning "naked," the Greeks saw it as lewd and indecent behavior. To the Greek mind such behavior was disgusting.
...
"In this culture the exposing of the glans penis was not only offensive but an open invitation for ostracism. Societal stress was so great that young Hellenistic Jews occasionally undertook to reverse the fact of circumcision by undergoing the painful and traumatic operation known as epispasm to "uncircumcised" themselves in order to be accepted.

Sewing a piece of dead horsehide (or whatever) onto the end of Willie Jr. is NOT, in any way, a reversal of circumcision.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sewing a piece of dead horsehide (or whatever) onto the end of Willie Jr. is NOT, in any way, a reversal of circumcision.

Try stretching it. You'll be uncircumcised in no time. It's like guys stretching their ear lobes for plugs.