Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[eternally-gratefull]

We can speak till we are blue in the face but unless the Spirit germinates the seed of the gospel it will remain dormant in the fallow ground of our heart. For the gospel to take root the Spirit must come to plow up the fallow ground. We are naturally blind and deaf and only the Spirit can open our eyes and ears. Here are a couple more...

"...but God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." Ephesians 2: 1-5

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It was while we were still dead (unregenerate) that the Spirit quickened us by grace. The Spirit's quickens us WHEN we are unregenerate. Likewise,

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" 1 John 5:1

(Hendryx.J)
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this does not change what is real. And it does not make up for the fact they have people given eternal life (regenerate) before their sin is even forgiven.

ie, they are made ALIVE IN SIN..

1. A person who is under the penalty of sin is DEAD (unregenerate)
2. A person will remain dead until their sin is forgiven (justified)
3. A person is justified (saved, made righteous, born again) by the means of grace through FAITH. (eph 2: 9)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I won't address every point in this post, although I disagree with your assertions.

I will simply state that God's justice isn't something we judge. We cannot wrap ourselves in the robes of the judge and pronounce a verdict on God's decisions. We are not the judges and cannot use our human standards to define what is right and what is wrong.

I am not doing this, and am actually unbelieving of the fact you think I am, This is bordering on nothing but a strawman.

For example, if you believe in the eternal torment view, you might find that punishment to be unconscionable but I don't see you judging that as unfair. God destroyed the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in the Old Testament for the sins of their fathers. You might not find that fair. God drowned the entire population of the world at the time of Noah..including children....you might not find that fair. Your human concept of fairness is irrelevant, and to claim that God must conform to it is an error.

God also blinded the nation of Israel during the time of Christ concerning his Messiahship, and then later judged them by destroying Jerusalem and most of its inhabitants in AD70 by the hands of Titus..you might not find that fair. But it's irrelevant.

Yep your right, Jesus told us all about his will in that area.. His will was to wrap then uner his wings as a hen, BUT THEY WERE UNWILLING..

Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


It does not matter what I think is right or wrong, It matters what God thinks. And according to god. not one human being who ever walked the earth but on deserved anything other than hell..

No jew deserved to live in Israel/ But by Gods grace he allowed it, He wanted to give them so many things BUT THEY WERE NOT WILLING TO DO WHAT GOD ASKED> OR TO TRUST HIM.

od uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, as Isaiah 10 states, and then he punished Assyria for doing it. You might not find that fair...but it's irrelevant.

God used Judas to betray Christ....and he was born a son of perdition..there was no chance he could have chosen to do something else other than what he did. You might not find that fair..but it's irrelevant.

I thought like that once. I don't judge God whatsoever now and I don't read my presuppositions about what is fair and what is not fair into the Word. I simply accept it for what it says. And what it says reflects Reformed theology, whether I like it or not. It's irrelevant.

Non of this is revelent, even to our discussion. Our discussion is does God give eternal life to people still in sin, or does he give eternal life to people who in humility, receive his gift in faith.

Nothing you said here is revelent in that conversation. its a rabbit trail

I'm not going to cover my eyes whenever the Bible mentions election, elect, chosen, predestined, determined, etcetera..and read the Bible through the cracks in my fingers..that's what I'd have to do in order to be an Arminian or free-willer.

No it is not. I am not arminian, I am nothing like them

That my point, You are so engrained in this calvanist view, You think there is only calvanist or arminians, If I do not believe in doule predestination, that one is born again BEFORE they are justified, I must be calvanist.

That is why it is so hard to have a conversation with most of the, Because they have made up their mind what is what.

Their position is mostly based on a humanistic presupposition that man's will reigns supreme, and not God's will. This is a fundamental flaw. I am all about sola Scriptura.

I am all about sola scriptura too.

But I am not about mocking the love, grace, and justice of God..

I would love to discuss it,, But it seems all you want to do is condemn me as an arminian because I reject eternal life while a person is still in sin??

 

[Gr8grace]

Ok, the Holy Spirit has given me enough faith to choose to believe the gospel as He has everyone on the planet. More often than not, people reject the call.

Ecc 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

2 Cor 6:2~~English Standard Version
For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Deut 30:19~~New American Standard Bible
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Mark 6:6~~King James Bible
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[sparkman]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Yup..sounds like our will trumps God's will



A Calvinist is an Arminian who learned to read

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Yup..sounds like our will trumps God's will



A Calvinist is an Arminian who learned to read

Maybe one day a calvanist will stop trying to follow men (calvin, or luther, or arminian, or whoever....), And try to follow the bible

 

[royalscot]

John distinguished between believe into and believe in (John 2.23-25)

some who call a believer a liar, need not quote the bible to me, when they have been proved wrong. etc.

 

[John146]

Who is predestined in this verse...those in him, in Christ! We have not reached our destination. Our destination is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, the adoption, the redemption of our body.

A Calvinist is a Christian who likes to privately interpret the Bible.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Yup..sounds like our will trumps God's will



A Calvinist is an Arminian who learned to read

 

[sparkman]

I've been reading a book called Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views. It's a debate book between James White and Dave Hunt concerning the Calvinism vs. Arminian argument.

The book is worthwhile because White produces excellent support for the doctrines of grace. However, it can be aggravating because Dave Hunt doesn't respond with intelligent arguments and exegesis. It's like watching a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. It is obvious from White's replies that his argument is basically philosophical and not reflective of sound exegesis of Scripture.

Here's a PDF copy of the book that I found online.


http://www.fairladyz32.com/download... White and Dave Hunt - Debating Calvinism.pdf

Note that I bought the book. I don't know if the above pdf copy was authorized so use it at your own conscience.

 

[sparkman]

I've been reading a book called Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views. It's a debate book between James White and Dave Hunt concerning the Calvinism vs. Arminian argument.

The book is worthwhile because White produces excellent support for the doctrines of grace. However, it can be aggravating because Dave Hunt doesn't respond with intelligent arguments and exegesis. It's like watching a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. It is obvious from White's replies that his argument is basically philosophical and not reflective of sound exegesis of Scripture.

Here's a PDF copy of the book that I found online.


http://www.fairladyz32.com/downloads/christian/books/James%20White/James%20White%20and%20Dave%20Hunt%20-%20Debating%20Calvinism.pdf

Note that I bought the book. I don't know if the above pdf copy was authorized so use it at your own conscience.

Note that the exegesis White gives regarding John 6 is on page 117-125. It is impossible for Arminians to evade the clear teaching concerning John 6 in preference to their own doctrine.

 

[ForthAngel]

The book is worthwhile because White produces excellent support for the doctrines of grace. However, it can be aggravating because Dave Hunt doesn't respond with intelligent arguments and exegesis. It's like watching a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. It is obvious from White's replies that his argument is basically philosophical and not reflective of sound exegesis of Scripture.

This is the problem with any Calivinist/Arminian debate. It's torturous to watch them sometimes. The Arminian is always like "but predestined and before the foundation of the world doesn't really mean predestined and before the foundation of the world" and so I'm just always like

 

[sparkman]

This is the problem with any Calivinist/Arminian debate. It's torturous to watch them sometimes. The Arminian is always like "but predestined and before the foundation of the world doesn't really mean predestined and before the foundation of the world" and so I'm just always like

Yes, the whole issue is making God into their image and defining what is fair and unfair in regards to salvation. They don't judge whether God is fair or unfair, and they do not define the parameters of his activity with mankind.

 

[Josefnospam]

A small book entitled "TULIP" contrasts the two. But we are not Calvinist but Christians following God's word and worshiping Christ in spirit and truth.

 

[sparkman]

A small book entitled "TULIP" contrasts the two. But we are not Calvinist but Christians following God's word and worshiping Christ in spirit and truth.

Who wrote the book?

I agree with the Calvinist remark..I prefer using the word monergist or Reformed.