I wonder why people feel a need to construct false dichotomies. Are there really not enough problems in the world that some must go around creating more? Nobody denies that we are saved by grace. The problem seems to come in with the grace without works being dead construct: obedience. Those who teach any aspect of obedience are often condemned as being legalists, and that is a gross misunderstanding on the part of the accuser. It is almost as if they deliberately skew what is being said just to cause dissention.
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E
Thats not the problem.
the problem is the same problem we had in NT days.
we have those who teach grace.
We have those who want to keep religion, and grace, and teach grace plus works, and call it grace alone
then we have those who want to keep sinning, but get a get out of jail card free, and say we can say a sinners prayer, and we are in.. does not matter how we live our lives.
It is all in the bible. nothing new, Actually it is has been going on since adam first sinned..
people who teach obedience are only termed as legalists if they claim salvation is dependent on it.. I teach obedience, yet I would not be a legalist, because salvation is dependent on me being guilty, not innocent.. An innocent man does not need saved.
Repentance is simply changing our mind to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ and to stop relying on ourselves and our own works for salvation. The word repentance has been "hi-jacked" by religious tradition and thus has corrupted the pure message of the gospel to believe in Christ alone and instead to believe in works. There will come "fruits" of repentance in a exchanged life in Christ but it is never the root of repentance.
Repentance is changing our mind - our perspective to see what Christ has done for us and to then believe in His finished work on our behalf. This allows our true nature in Christ in our new creation in Him to allow Christ's live to flow in and through us. It's His life that we live in now. He gets all the glory!
Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Repentance is changing our mind - our perspective to see what Christ has done for us and to then believe in His finished work on our behalf. This allows our true nature in Christ in our new creation in Him to allow Christ's live to flow in and through us. It's His life that we live in now. He gets all the glory!
Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Amen..and the teaching of legalism is what nullifies the work of grace in a believers life. Paul was vehemently opposed to any form of legalistic works.
Some legalism comes in the form of front-loading the gospel ( like fees in a mutual fund do ) by saying you just do these things in order to be saved in the first place.( like JW..etc. )..
The second form of legalism is more crafty and says.." Now that you are saved by grace - you must do all these things now in order to remained saved " - this is back-loading the gospel with works salvation.
In effect the above view is saying that Jesus lied when He said "It is a free gift"....once you are in...now here is the fine print..I lied about it being a free gift. This form of legalism is the worse kind as it deals with half-truths looked at through a legalistic mindset and "lens"..and not grace-based on the love of God in Christ and thus scriptures are taken out of context in order to try to prove their works salvation story..
This kind above is like a store advertising "Free camera to everyone who comes in the store"......you go in as you are hooked on their words and then they say..well free if you buy a TV first.
It's deceitful and I don't for a second believe our Father is deceitful nor do I think the Lord Jesus is deceitful either.
Some legalism comes in the form of front-loading the gospel ( like fees in a mutual fund do ) by saying you just do these things in order to be saved in the first place.( like JW..etc. )..
The second form of legalism is more crafty and says.." Now that you are saved by grace - you must do all these things now in order to remained saved " - this is back-loading the gospel with works salvation.
In effect the above view is saying that Jesus lied when He said "It is a free gift"....once you are in...now here is the fine print..I lied about it being a free gift. This form of legalism is the worse kind as it deals with half-truths looked at through a legalistic mindset and "lens"..and not grace-based on the love of God in Christ and thus scriptures are taken out of context in order to try to prove their works salvation story..
This kind above is like a store advertising "Free camera to everyone who comes in the store"......you go in as you are hooked on their words and then they say..well free if you buy a TV first.
It's deceitful and I don't for a second believe our Father is deceitful nor do I think the Lord Jesus is deceitful either.
Take the first part of that verse by itself....Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,......"
If one is truly "in" Christ then they are also truly "in" the Spirit by the new nature of Christ which now dwells in them, and that is where the no condemnation comes in by abiding "in" Christ by way of the Spirit.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
The old Adam and man of sin nature is dead and gone when you are truly made a new creation in Jesus Christ.
If one is truly "in" Christ then they are also truly "in" the Spirit by the new nature of Christ which now dwells in them, and that is where the no condemnation comes in by abiding "in" Christ by way of the Spirit.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
The old Adam and man of sin nature is dead and gone when you are truly made a new creation in Jesus Christ.
Then why do you have to repent every day, as I have seen you say you do? That seems excessive if it is merely changing your mind about Jesus and His finished work on our behalf. I mean, honestly! How many times must one do this? It seems you have hi-jacked the word and turned it into a religion all on it's own.
J
Bottom line, this whole train of bickering is beating a dead horse, now a puddle of pulp. There's zero new views added here, just the same old repetition, bickering over baby's milk theology it appears people can't move past.
People who think their works juice salvation, they've spoken. The legends in their own minds, holy Joes have spoken. People who think you can sin all you want, though I've never seen anybody say that, rather trolls dangling this out there, this non-existent view is, nonetheless, presented. Those who point out the Holy Spirit leads the believer into all truth and a progressive sanctification, ending in glorification, and the Lord disciplines any child, that there are certain fruits of the Holy Spirit, including understanding clear scripture (!), we've spoken. Everything has been said, hundreds and hundreds of times. At what point does this verse kick in around here?
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
I tire of repetitive thread and bickers avoidance, and, being a person who tends to hear things the first time, haven't generally needed to have anything repeated to me or read the same thing five hundred times. Is some of this beginning to resemble some crazy person, constantly talking to thin air or the voices in his head? Is there anybody else who is just bored by it all?
People who think their works juice salvation, they've spoken. The legends in their own minds, holy Joes have spoken. People who think you can sin all you want, though I've never seen anybody say that, rather trolls dangling this out there, this non-existent view is, nonetheless, presented. Those who point out the Holy Spirit leads the believer into all truth and a progressive sanctification, ending in glorification, and the Lord disciplines any child, that there are certain fruits of the Holy Spirit, including understanding clear scripture (!), we've spoken. Everything has been said, hundreds and hundreds of times. At what point does this verse kick in around here?
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
I tire of repetitive thread and bickers avoidance, and, being a person who tends to hear things the first time, haven't generally needed to have anything repeated to me or read the same thing five hundred times. Is some of this beginning to resemble some crazy person, constantly talking to thin air or the voices in his head? Is there anybody else who is just bored by it all?