The two witnesses
- Thread starter Lifted_by_the_word
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Colossians1:15:20
He is the invisible image of God,the first born over all creation.For by him all things were created:things in heaven and on earth,visible and invisible ,whatever thrones or powers or authorities,all things were created by him and for him.
He is before all things,and in him all things hold together.
And he is the head of the body,the church;he is the beginning and the first born of the dead,so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
For God was pleased to have his fulness dwell in him,and through him to reconcile to himself all things,whether things on earth or things on heaven,by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.
He is the invisible image of God,the first born over all creation.For by him all things were created:things in heaven and on earth,visible and invisible ,whatever thrones or powers or authorities,all things were created by him and for him.
He is before all things,and in him all things hold together.
And he is the head of the body,the church;he is the beginning and the first born of the dead,so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
For God was pleased to have his fulness dwell in him,and through him to reconcile to himself all things,whether things on earth or things on heaven,by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.
It is fairly obvious from reading the Revelation passage that the witnesses represent Moses and Elijah. It says that they had power to stop rain which Elijah did and turn water into blood which was one of the plagues of Egypt. I am not saying that they are actually Moses and Elijah but they appear to have their spirit. I have no problem with the idea that the 144000 are Jewish witnesses in the last days. The two witnesses are actual people not just symbolic of the OT and NT.
They are killed and resurrected after three days. People exchange presents and celebrate their deaths. Incidentally
it was only three of the Disciples that saw the transfiguration not twelve.
They are killed and resurrected after three days. People exchange presents and celebrate their deaths. Incidentally
it was only three of the Disciples that saw the transfiguration not twelve.
It is fairly obvious from reading the Revelation passage that the witnesses represent Moses and Elijah. It says that they had power to stop rain which Elijah did and turn water into blood which was one of the plagues of Egypt. I am not saying that they are actually Moses and Elijah but they appear to have their spirit. . The two witnesses are actual people not just symbolic of the OT and NT. The 144000 are a Jewish remnant saved through their preaching.
They are killed and resurrected after three days. People exchange presents and celebrate their deaths. Incidentally
it was only three of the Disciples that saw the transfiguration not twelve.
They are killed and resurrected after three days. People exchange presents and celebrate their deaths. Incidentally
it was only three of the Disciples that saw the transfiguration not twelve.
The two witnesses are not actual people,it's the Bible.
With the 144,000 being his witnesses of the scriptures they hold the testimony of the two witnesses(scripture knowledge)
Jesus will lead by pouring his Spirit into the remnant and give his testimony word for word.
That way it will be just as before when the old covenant was being fulfilled.
Ark of the testimony leading the way into the Jordan/Jesus leading the way by being in the temple of the 144,000 giving his testimony.
The next generation of Israelite's and the two witnesses Joshua/Caleb and the two spies are the remnant of Israel in the book of Joshua.
They even made it over the Jordan during the first harvest of the season,so they are considered to be the first fruits also.
Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again,
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there any thing which one can say,
"look this is something new"?
It was here already long ago;
it was here before our time.
With the 144,000 being his witnesses of the scriptures they hold the testimony of the two witnesses(scripture knowledge)
Jesus will lead by pouring his Spirit into the remnant and give his testimony word for word.
That way it will be just as before when the old covenant was being fulfilled.
Ark of the testimony leading the way into the Jordan/Jesus leading the way by being in the temple of the 144,000 giving his testimony.
The next generation of Israelite's and the two witnesses Joshua/Caleb and the two spies are the remnant of Israel in the book of Joshua.
They even made it over the Jordan during the first harvest of the season,so they are considered to be the first fruits also.
Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again,
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there any thing which one can say,
"look this is something new"?
It was here already long ago;
it was here before our time.
Hello Lifted,
1). Please provide scripture that states that the two witnesses are not real people or what leads you to that conclusion from the context.
2). Please provide the scriptures that link the two witnesses and the 144,000 as being the same.
3). Please provide scripture that identifies Caleb and Joshua as being the two witnesses
If you will read these scriptures and take them at face value, you will get the right interpretation. But, if you symbolize them, then you and everyone else can make them into anything you want. Whenever you interpret this information other than in the literal sense, the burden of proof is on you to convince others that the two witnesses are not who the scriptures say that they are. One of the biggest problems with expositors today is the symbolizing or allegorizing of scripture which is meant to be taken literally. I have studied the word of God for over 40 years and the Spirit has never led me to your conclusions and that because they are conjecture and fabrications. There are no links, no context that would support what you are claiming.
Symbolism should only be applied with a symbolic meaning is obvious.
1). Please provide scripture that states that the two witnesses are not real people or what leads you to that conclusion from the context.
2). Please provide the scriptures that link the two witnesses and the 144,000 as being the same.
3). Please provide scripture that identifies Caleb and Joshua as being the two witnesses
If you will read these scriptures and take them at face value, you will get the right interpretation. But, if you symbolize them, then you and everyone else can make them into anything you want. Whenever you interpret this information other than in the literal sense, the burden of proof is on you to convince others that the two witnesses are not who the scriptures say that they are. One of the biggest problems with expositors today is the symbolizing or allegorizing of scripture which is meant to be taken literally. I have studied the word of God for over 40 years and the Spirit has never led me to your conclusions and that because they are conjecture and fabrications. There are no links, no context that would support what you are claiming.
Symbolism should only be applied with a symbolic meaning is obvious.
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Lifted,
You can't just claim that Joshua and Caleb are the two witnesses, because if there isn't any scripture, then it is just conjecture. It just basically becomes "because I said so." There has to be some scripture somewhere that reveals that information, otherwise, your conclusion is based on the fact that Caleb and Joshua are two guys and the two witnesses are two guys. Caleb and Joshua were just the two people out of that generation who had faith and were allowed into the promised land.
What I want to know is, how you come to the conclusion, based on scripture, that the two witnesses are not real men as the scripture states?
You can't just claim that Joshua and Caleb are the two witnesses, because if there isn't any scripture, then it is just conjecture. It just basically becomes "because I said so." There has to be some scripture somewhere that reveals that information, otherwise, your conclusion is based on the fact that Caleb and Joshua are two guys and the two witnesses are two guys. Caleb and Joshua were just the two people out of that generation who had faith and were allowed into the promised land.
What I want to know is, how you come to the conclusion, based on scripture, that the two witnesses are not real men as the scripture states?
What I want to know, is why people totally ignore this all important clue.....
Revelation 11:4
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Show me by scripture where 2 flesh and blood men like Moses and Elijah feed the Golden Oil of God's Spirit into the 7 spirits of God, so we might believe 2 flesh and blood men have this power.
Revelation 11:4
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Show me by scripture where 2 flesh and blood men like Moses and Elijah feed the Golden Oil of God's Spirit into the 7 spirits of God, so we might believe 2 flesh and blood men have this power.
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[SUP]a[/SUP] 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days the breath[SUP]b[/SUP] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
Here is my point: everything in the context regarding the two witnesses, demonstrates that they are two literal people. Here are the details regarding the two witnesses:
* I will appoint my two witnesses
* They will prophesy for 1,260 days
* They are clothed in sackcloth
* They represented by two olive trees and two lampstands
* If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
* They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying
* they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague
* After 1,260 days, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
* Their bodies will lie in the public square of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days and not be allow burial
* People from every tribe, language and nation will gloat over them and celebrate by sending gifts to one another
* After 3 1/2 days God says, "come up here" and they resurrect and ascend into heaven
All of the characteristics above demonstrate without a doubt -- via scripture -- that these two men are literal men and not symbolic. There is nothing whatsoever in the context that would lead the reader to believe otherwise. By your interpretation, you are forcing the issue by mere conjecture.
11But after the three and a half days the breath[SUP]b[/SUP] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
Here is my point: everything in the context regarding the two witnesses, demonstrates that they are two literal people. Here are the details regarding the two witnesses:
* I will appoint my two witnesses
* They will prophesy for 1,260 days
* They are clothed in sackcloth
* They represented by two olive trees and two lampstands
* If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
* They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying
* they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague
* After 1,260 days, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
* Their bodies will lie in the public square of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days and not be allow burial
* People from every tribe, language and nation will gloat over them and celebrate by sending gifts to one another
* After 3 1/2 days God says, "come up here" and they resurrect and ascend into heaven
All of the characteristics above demonstrate without a doubt -- via scripture -- that these two men are literal men and not symbolic. There is nothing whatsoever in the context that would lead the reader to believe otherwise. By your interpretation, you are forcing the issue by mere conjecture.
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Wait a minute,I didn't say they are the two witnesses in Revelation.
But they are witnesses right? to the younger new generation of the remnant of Joshua's time?
They do represent the two witnesses of Revelation though.Just like the 12 stones they picked up out of the Jordan river represents the future 12 tribes of Israel.
Just like how crossing the Jordan river represents them being baptized.
But if you take this at face value,they just pick up 12 stones for no apparent reason and the fact that they crossed the Jordan during the first harvest of the season was just sheer coincidence.
But they are witnesses right? to the younger new generation of the remnant of Joshua's time?
They do represent the two witnesses of Revelation though.Just like the 12 stones they picked up out of the Jordan river represents the future 12 tribes of Israel.
Just like how crossing the Jordan river represents them being baptized.
But if you take this at face value,they just pick up 12 stones for no apparent reason and the fact that they crossed the Jordan during the first harvest of the season was just sheer coincidence.
What I want to know, is why people totally ignore this all important clue.....
Revelation 11:4
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Show me by scripture where 2 flesh and blood men like Moses and Elijah feed the Golden Oil of God's Spirit into the 7 spirits of God, so we might believe 2 flesh and blood men have this power.
Revelation 11:4
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Show me by scripture where 2 flesh and blood men like Moses and Elijah feed the Golden Oil of God's Spirit into the 7 spirits of God, so we might believe 2 flesh and blood men have this power.