Holiness or sinner

[coby]

This has been a BIG one for me. Especially at my particular church. Living in the Netherlands, you might also see the same acceptance and welcoming of Homosexuals I see. And, frankly, it bothers me.

But, my preacher has shown me how he feels about it, and I can't just ignore his view. He agrees that it is a sin. And he, like Wommack feels they already know that, and that it is not our place to browbeat them about it.

But, I have a bit different view. While I agree that a struggling homosexual should not be ostracized, I also feel the situation of openly living a homosexual lifestyle should not be just ignored.

I'd be lying to you if I said this isn't a problem in my heart. I don't feel, at all, right just ignoring these situations. But, at the same time, I cannot justify the feeling I have of wanting to be their own personal "queer police."

I'm working through this one, right now. (And I wish I didn't have to.)

We had one in church. They don't get a hateful law gospel in their face, just like the rest of the people who struggle with things, but just inner healing, deliverance. Not tell them immediately it's sin if they aren't even saved and have no clue. It's the same as people living together. There comes a moment you have to speak about it. If it's christians who just want to do what they do they'll leave themselves because they can't stand the preaching.

 

[coby]

You add works to salvation. Works are simply observance of the Law. You assert, time and time again, that if one doesn't live a certain way, they forfeit their salvation.

Clear enough?

Paul says that too, so he also mixes works with grace then. Galatians 5:19 is from Paul.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree...and that is the leaders job in the church. To go to them privately first and give them the word of the grace of Christ. He changes them...not themselves. ..they "repent" that is change their mind to trust in Jesus finished work as they see who they truly are now in Christ..new creations....and then allow the Spirit of the Lord to transform them...

They need to hear the gospel preached...not the law..that brings them under sin's dominion...grace teaches them how to live godly...

We had one in church. They don't get a hateful law gospel in their face, just like the rest of the people who struggle with things, but just inner healing, deliverance. Not tell them immediately it's sin if they aren't even saved and have no clue. It's the same as people living together. There comes a moment you have to speak about it. If it's christians who just want to do what they do they'll leave themselves because they can't stand the preaching.

 

[Grandpa]

This has been a BIG one for me. Especially at my particular church. Living in the Netherlands, you might also see the same acceptance and welcoming of Homosexuals I see. And, frankly, it bothers me.

But, my preacher has shown me how he feels about it, and I can't just ignore his view. He agrees that it is a sin. And he, like Wommack feels they already know that, and that it is not our place to browbeat them about it.

But, I have a bit different view. While I agree that a struggling homosexual should not be ostracized, I also feel the situation of openly living a homosexual lifestyle should not be just ignored.

I'd be lying to you if I said this isn't a problem in my heart. I don't feel, at all, right just ignoring these situations. But, at the same time, I cannot justify the feeling I have of wanting to be their own personal "queer police."

I'm working through this one, right now. (And I wish I didn't have to.)

The sad problem is that the veil is still over their minds. We can't take away this veil. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can.

I used to justify myself, in my mind, as obeying the law. I manipulated all the meanings so I was good in my own eyes. I'm sure lots of people do this.

But when I really started to try to be perfect according to the bible and the Word of Christ I found out I wasn't able. I needed help.

So, how does a person come to that point? To try to be perfect but know they need help? Its a miracle, as far as I'm concerned.

How does a person go from thinking so highly of themselves (measuring themselves among themselves) to thinking not so highly of themselves (measuring themselves with the Perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ)?

Only by the wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ.


I don't really know how to deal with this issue, either. I want to love the sinner and hate the sin. But I want the sinner to at least acknowledge their sin and attempt to deal with it and refrain from it. Acknowledge that its a sin and be against it.

You don't see Christians who were adulterers getting in some group and saying to the whole world that its ok they are adulterers, God made them that way. I don't know why any sin should be seen as the special one.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I honestly don't see how someone could do that and remain unchanged in their heart. And if they don't do this how, exactly, are they Christian?

 

[coby]

Paul would preach Christ to them and who they we are in Christ. Even the Corinthians that were going to the temple prostitutes for sex and, those taking each other to court..those being divisive...those getting drunk at communion and eating all the food before the poor people could get there to eat too.

Paul told them who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior..he didn't say you were all unsaved now..
..he told them who they were in Christ..saints..they have His righteousness, holiness..etc.


1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Yes he was very sweet to the man living with his father's wife. Oh saint it doesn't matter what you do. God loves you.
I have to have birth pangs again for those who have not yet repented from their former walk. Can't find the text so it's in Dunglish.

 

[Willie-T]

We had one in church. They don't get a hateful law gospel in their face, just like the rest of the people who struggle with things, but just inner healing, deliverance. Not tell them immediately it's sin if they aren't even saved and have no clue. It's the same as people living together. There comes a moment you have to speak about it. If it's christians who just want to do what they do they'll leave themselves because they can't stand the preaching.

Is that our only alternative?.... To, basically, run them off with stern preaching if they don't "shape up." I speak against that kind of abuse of the Scriptures all the time here.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep..that man in 1 Cor 5:5 was a special case..

This is about the guy that was sleeping with his father's wife..( not sure how exactly that worked ).

The Corinthians were boasting in this deed that was being done by this man. I believe it was the boasting in that they could do whatever they wanted because of grace.

Paul did not mention the other people in Corinth for disciplining of the flesh as he did the man with his father's wife.

The other Corinthians were going to temple prostitutes for sex, getting drunk at communion, fighting and bickering amongst themselves, taking each other to court, committing fornication, not leaving food for the poorer to eat during their communion time ( love-feasts).

These were not viewed like the guy below nor where they disciplined in the same way.

This type of discipline is rare and done by someone that is spiritual and in leadership in the local church under the direction of the Lord Himself.

1 Corinthians 5:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?



We always need to read scriptures in context.

Yes he was very sweet to the man living with his father's wife. Oh saint it doesn't matter what you do. God loves you.
I have to have birth pangs again for those who have not yet repented from their former walk. Can't find the text so it's in Dunglish.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul says that too, so he also mixes works with grace then. Galatians 5:19 is from Paul.

Gal 5: 19 is paul showing us works of the flesh.

How is that adding law to salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that our only alternative?.... To, basically, run them off with stern preaching if they don't "shape up." I speak against that kind of abuse of the Scriptures all the time here.

we do it the way God says to do it.

God tells us how church discipline is to be carried out.

That being said, If a passage comes up which you are teaching, and it is focused on a sin issue, we do not water the passage down, or skip it. We teach it, Otherwise we are not being faithful to the word of God.

 

[coby]

Is that our only alternative?.... To, basically, run them off with stern preaching if they don't "shape up." I speak against that kind of abuse of the Scriptures all the time here.

He just preaches about sin also and that offends I think. These are christians that know it's sin, yet choose to live together. He's not stern. He says look why don't you just marry then because now there is no protection from God and he says that he did it too when he wasn't saved. Wants to help. Too offensive, go to another church where they say it's okay.

 

[Grace777x70]

Very true...but in the same token I have seen pastors "beat" the sheep because they were 'trying" to get at someone in the church to change. The pastor needs to take them aside....and deal with them individually. Jesus said to 'feed" His sheep.

We are starting to grow up in the Lord though and "spiritual" believers and leaders are around to help those stuck in sin.

Galatians 6:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

we do it the way God says to do it.

God tells us how church discipline is to be carried out.

That being said, If a passage comes up which you are teaching, and it is focused on a sin issue, we do not water the passage down, or skip it. We teach it, Otherwise we are not being faithful to the word of God.

 

[coby]

There was one girl on a Dutch forum. She asked her evangelical pastor if it was okay to have sex with her boyfriend.
Yes that's okay he said.

 

[Grace777x70]

He should have told her that she is the righteousness of God in Christ and that she is valuable....then ask her to talk it over with Christ who is in her....and ask her what fornication means.....it is a work of the flesh and you will suffer for it if you do things like this.....you were made for a greater purpose and to experience real life.

There was one girl on a Dutch forum. She asked her evangelical pastor if it was okay to have sex with her boyfriend.
Yes that's okay he said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very true...but in the same token I have seen pastors "beat" the sheep because they were 'trying" to get at someone in the church to change. The pastor needs to take them aside....and deal with them individually. Jesus said to 'feed" His sheep.

We are starting to grow up in the Lord though and "spiritual" believers and leaders are around to help those stuck in sin.

Galatians 6:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

thats why I do not like

1. Hellire and brimstone sunday worship every sunday
2. Topical teachings, Just pick a book and go through it,, You will not get into that habit of trying to preach to the congregation or certain people.

We have done that at my church, and the messages speak to me every sunday, the same message speaks to different people differently.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He should have told her that she is the righteousness of God in Christ and that she is valuable....then ask her to talk it over with Christ who is in her....and ask her what fornication means.....it is a work of the flesh and you will suffer for it if you do things like this.....you were made for a greater purpose and to experience real life.

It's a bit more serious than what "grace" believers have the ears to hear.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10​

 

[Willie-T]

There was one girl on a Dutch forum. She asked her evangelical pastor if it was okay to have sex with her boyfriend.
Yes that's okay he said.

Well, we know some of you Dutch are just about as wild as Californians. LOL

(It's a joke!)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You add works to salvation. Works are simply observance of the Law. You assert, time and time again, that if one doesn't live a certain way, they forfeit their salvation.

Clear enough?

I hardly ever mention the law, so your charge can't be true. Your problem is that you equate Christ's commandments with the law.

 

[coby]

He should have told her that she is the righteousness of God in Christ and that she is valuable....then ask her to talk it over with Christ who is in her....and ask her what fornication means.....it is a work of the flesh and you will suffer for it if you do things like this.....you were made for a greater purpose and to experience real life.

I said that it was sin as one of the only ones. God showed her later. If you dare to say on that Dutch christian forum that homosexuality is sin they jump on you, you hateful bigot. How dare you? The homosexuals may speak there that it's totally normal. One guy who had that asked for help to get rid of it. I pm'd him otherwise they'd jump on me. So that's why I post on American forums now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a bit more serious than what "grace" believers have the ears to hear.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10​

As usual,

You do not finish the passage,

1 Cor 6: [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

They did not clean themselves up. GOD CLEANED THEM UP!

 

[coby]

As usual,

You do not finish the passage,

1 Cor 6: [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

They did not clean themselves up. GOD CLEANED THEM UP!

Yes such were some of you and they converted and got set free and were not anymore. There were those that stayed in it, about those he had birth pangs again.