Revelation Timeline

[DiscipleDave]

With that I definitely agree.



I do not... agree with a mid-trib rapture of the Church.

The final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is shown in Rev.11 to end the tribulation, and begin Christ's eternal reign over all nations, and marks the time of the 7th Vial with God's cup of wrath upon the wicked. That is "day of the Lord" timing when God's consuming fire will destroy man's works off this earth (2 Pet.3:10).

The "day of the Lord" timing is when Jesus said that He comes "as a thief", still warning His Church on the 6th Vial just prior to the gathering of Satan's host to pour out the 7th Vial wrath upon them (Rev.16:15-17). That aligns with Jesus' coming to destroy that Wicked one of 2 Thess.2:8 with the "brightness of His coming."

That is the same day... of the resurrection on the "last trump" per Paul in 1 Cor.15. God's OT prophets gave many parallels to God's destruction upon the earth on that final day of The LORD (Zech.14).



How can I take you seriously when you say that 2 Thess.2 Scripture has nothing to do with the tribulation, when Paul gave us the strongest event point of the tribulation there, i.e, the appearance of the coming Antichrist sitting in the temple of God in Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into wrongly worshiping him in place of God? And then even with Paul's clear declaration of our Lord Jesus coming to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming, which marks the end of that tribulation by that false one?

By that, Paul marked the timing of our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church after the trib of that Wicked one's working, i.e., when He comes to destroy that Wicked one with "the brightness of His coming." Aren't you aware why Paul would use that "brightness" description? We were shown about it in the OT prophets, especially in the Zech.14:6-7 verses.



I just showed you how it does, marking the END of the tribulation. That Wicked one, man of sin, that comes to do that 2 Thess.2:4 event is about the tribulation time when that false one comes to power in Jerusalem. That's the same one of Rev.13 that is to have power over all nations for a period of 42 months, the same beast king of Rev.17 that will rule one symbolic hour with the ten kings. If he is still in power, the trib has not ended. If he is destroyed by Christ's coming he is no longer in power and thus no more trib. It's as simple as that.



Paul's purpose of writing that was to clear up misunderstanding about the order of events leading up to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. So your statement is irrelevant to that. What happens after... Christ's return is written in Rev.20 with His future "thousand years" reign, which is also written of in the OT prophets like Zech.14 and Ezekiel 40 through 48.



Well, YES, it certainly DOES mean the tribulation period is... over, done, no more, never to ever happen on this earth again, as the beast and the false prophet are cast into the "lake of fire" on the day of Christ's return per Rev.19. Your saying that above is a vain attempt to create a loop hole in the Scripture to fit in a doctrine of men.




Jesus within the 6th Vial timing is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", pointing to the coming final 7th Vial destruction on the "day of the Lord" (remember Paul and Peter about that "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night", and will be a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked?) Day of the LORD = 7th Vial timing, not 1st Vial timing.

This means Vials 1-6 are poured DURING the tribulation period, not after it. That point should... be very easy to understand, since the beast is still reigning even ON the 6th Vial timing! The nations aren't gathered around Jerusalem for the final battle of Armageddon until the ending of the 6th Vial. On the 7th Vial God's cup of wrath is poured out upon them.

Note also per latter Zech.14 Scripture, some of the wicked that came upon Jerusalem on that last day survive and are required to go up from year to year to Jerusalem during Christ's Millennial reign to worship Him.



You're simply not... heeding these following Scriptures as written:

Rev 16:12-15
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

Do you not see the dragon and the beast "working miracles" on that 6th VIAL timing??? That is tribulation time still there at that point.

Then just prior to the final 7th Vial, our Lord Jesus warns His Church about His coming "as a thief" next on the 7th Vial!

You cannot... move Jesus' coming to gather His Church back to the 1st Vial timing per that Scripture flow!!! It's impossible! Wake up!

The 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial BOTH... occur at the SAME time is what those events show! The way you are trying to interpret the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials is similar to how pre-trib does, as if the order of events depended on each set of Seals, Trumpets, and Vials happening each in a separate order like how John was given to see them and write them down. That is not... the order of the events how they happen though.

In the following I will highlight in bold colors,these parallel events that show these 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial events are all the SAME timing on the very LAST DAY of this world:

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV



Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV


Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake,and great hail.
KJV

Friend believe as you were taught by others and yourself, i can do nothing but believe what God told me. If you do not believe God told me these things, what is that to me?

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Well, our Lord Jesus does provide those called in His service to do that specific job only. That's the evangelist job by The Holy Spirit.

But some He called first as apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and after that miracles, gifts of healing, helps, governments, and diversities of tongues (languages). See 1 Cor.12.

And who will believe those prophets when they show up claiming to have had conversations with God?

So some of the 'headier' debates you'll see here are actually those working out His calling of teachers in His Word, and not as evangelists. The pastor's role is specifically to teach the meaning of Scripture among God's Church by The Holy Spirit, not to evangelize The Gospel.

True, and the prophets are to merely repeat what God has told them, showed them, revealed to them, Is that not correct?

^i^

 

[GaryA]

If i am lying, let me spend all eternity in Hell fire, let me die a long and horrible painful death, which i will be in agony every moment of every day, let it be so bad upon me that i pray for death every day. And not only me, but let my Dad and Mom also suffer the same fate if I am lying, let also my children suffer the same fate as i have described, IF I AM LYING.

The psychology behind this kind of thinking --- comes out of the influence of Satan --- it never comes from God.

 

[GaryA]

"Absolutely! The angels are involved... I agree!"

However, I endeavor to always consider what scripture-as-a-whole says about something...


2 Thessalonians 1:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SUP]8[/SUP] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [SUP]17[/SUP] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [SUP]18[/SUP] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Would you say that 'he' is the Lord Jesus Christ?

What do you make of this?:


he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


Don't push it aside, cover it over, and forget it. It is a part of scripture that must be considered -- all scripture must agree - remember?

Read it - again and again - until it sinks in...

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


This is indicating that Jesus "administrates" the "pouring out" of the vials.

In other words, Jesus Himself 'dispenses' the Wrath of God upon the world.


Revelation 15:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

.
.
.

[SUP]5[/SUP] And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: [SUP]6[/SUP] And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. [SUP]7[/SUP] And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.


'vials' => "the wrath of God"


Who 'dispenses' the Wrath of God upon the world? ( all seven vials )


Jesus!


Notice how that the "great voice out of the temple" instructed the angels to "pour out" their vials of the wrath of God...

Sounds like it is referring to Almighty God [ the Father ] - right?


Do you honestly think that there are literal 'vials' - containing ( read this two ways ) the [ literal ] Wrath of God...???

Don't get totally lost in the illustration of it:

~ Almighty God "puts forth" the "fierceness and wrath of Almighty God"
~ Angels "pour" it into a winepress
~ Jesus "treadeth the winepress"


Look at all of the scriptures concerning the 'winepress' of the Wrath of God.

Do you understand what the phrase "treadeth the winepress" means - in terms of the definition of 'winepress' from ~2000 years ago?

Where does 'the Wrath of God' ultimately actually come from? Almighty God the Father - right?

Does this help you understand how that it is Jesus that 'dispenses' the Wrath of God upon the world?

Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Now --- who? --- "dishes out" the Wrath of God...?


Who is the 'Lamb'?

God the Father?

No.

A group of angels?

No.


( JESUS )


I never said that He didn't use angels to "disperse" the Wrath of God; however, Jesus IS the source and administrator of the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God upon the earth.

 

[Beloved777]

What does this verse mean: Daniel 12:12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days

 

[GaryA]

OOPS

Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Now --- who? --- "dishes out" the Wrath of God...?


Who is the 'Lamb'?

God the Father?

No.

A group of angels?

No.


( JESUS )


I never said that He didn't use angels to "disperse" the Wrath of God; however, Jesus IS the source and administrator of the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God upon the earth.

"dispense"

 

[DP]

Friend believe as you were taught by others and yourself, i can do nothing but believe what God told me. If you do not believe God told me these things, what is that to me?

^i^

I recognize each believer must be taught by our Heavenly Father and His Son through The Holy Spirit during study in His Holy Writ. But there is no private interpretation of His Word. We are all to be saying the same thing. And if we stay strictly to His Holy Writ, then we will be saying the same thing. It's when we allow a doctrine of men to influence our interpretation instead of listening to Him in His Word when errors begin to creep into our understanding.

 

[PlainWord]

This verse is specifically referring to the New City Jerusalem a very physical place.

Jesus is the Branch. Jesus goes into Heaven to prepare a place for us. That Place is the New City Jerusalem. The Holy City is the Temple of God. and the Throne of God is in the Temple. All this is revealed in Scriptures.

^i^

Not sure if you accidentally misspoke here? You said, "Jesus goes to Heaven to prepare a place for us." Is that what you meant? That isn't the meaning of John 14.

Jesus states this:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you...

Jesus makes clear that the Father's house (HEAVEN) already has mansions. They are already built. Therefore Jesus isn't returning to heaven to build anything. At the time Jesus says this, He isn't looking ahead to His accession back to Heaven. He still has a very big task to complete and one that isn't very pleasant.

I go to prepare a place for you.

So where is Jesus going? ANSWER: To the Cross.

Where is "the place": ANSWER: Heaven where the mansions are already built.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go (To the Cross) and prepare a place for you (In Heaven).

I will come again and receive you to Myself;

When Jesus returns, where is He? ANSWER: He is here on earth.

that where I am (back on earth), there you may be also.

What I believe Jesus is saying in this passage is that He is going to the Cross to prepare our way to Heaven because as we know, NOBODY was admitted to HEAVEN until after the Cross. After the Cross, once a believer dies, that believer immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Father. Now when Christ returns to earth he gathers all of us, dead believers and living believers to Himself right here on earth. This is what He says in the Olivet:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus basically tells us the same thing in Mat 13:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

The Field is the EARTH, right? Therefore the Harvest is on earth. The angels remove all offense people from the earthly kingdom.

Where do we reign with Christ? Not heaven, but here on earth as Rev 5 tells us:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

So the dead believers go to heaven and return with Christ. Those believers alive on earth will be gathered to reign with Christ right here on earth. They are not taken to heaven. Christ is to reign 1,000 years over the Nations of the Earth with a Rod of Iron. Until then, Christ is to remain at the Father's right hand until the Father has made the Earth his footstool, which He does with His wrath.

David teaches this concept in Psm 110 and it is repeated several times in the NT. It is worth pasting the entire Psalm below.
Christ isn't going anywhere until the below happens, the first verse is clear. There cannot be an earlier Rapture, pre-trib return of Christ before God's wrath as this passage is clear. Christ is ordered to remain at the Father's right hand until AFTER the wrath:

A Psalm of David.

110 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

 

[DP]

Yes, the place when our Lord Jesus comes is going to be where Jerusalem is today, with the temple layout per Ezekiel 40 through 47, which is what those "mansions" of John 14 are about, the abodes of the priests in the temple layout in Ezekiel.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, the place when our Lord Jesus comes is going to be where Jerusalem is today, with the temple layout per Ezekiel 40 through 47, which is what those "mansions" of John 14 are about, the abodes of the priests in the temple layout in Ezekiel.

This is a possible explanation of Ezek 40-48.

 

[DP]

This is a possible explanation of Ezek 40-48.

Yet somewhere between Ezek.47 & 48 there's a dividing line between Christ's Millennial reign and God's Eternal Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth, because the last verse of Ezek.48 tells us God is there, on earth, the Full Godhead having returned to this earth.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

If i am lying, let me spend all eternity in Hell fire, let me die a long and horrible painful death, which i will be in agony every moment of every day, let it be so bad upon me that i pray for death every day. And not only me, but let my Dad and Mom also suffer the same fate if I am lying, let also my children suffer the same fate as i have described, IF I AM LYING.

The psychology behind this kind of thinking --- comes out of the influence of Satan --- it never comes from God.

You say it comes from satan. Can you show through the Word of God that it comes from satan? Who is being influenced by who here? i said what i said above in an attempt to get this unbelieving Generation to maybe possibly believe that if i am willing to say something like that, that maybe it is in fact True. But do you see how satan works. let us not believe what it being said, let us cast stones and say it is a psychological issue that comes from satan. So instead of reaching the people in the generation of the Truth, let us belittle and cast down someone who says such things. Tell me if you accuse this thinking coming from the influence of satan, then surely you can point out the evil that was said, or the lie, that was said, can you point out any sin whatsoever? Yet because you do not believe the Truth, it must be from satan right. i mean oh my goodness to actually believe it, that we can't have, so let us cast stones instead.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Friend believe as you were taught by others and yourself, i can do nothing but believe what God told me. If you do not believe God told me these things, what is that to me?

^i^

I recognize each believer must be taught by our Heavenly Father and His Son through The Holy Spirit during study in His Holy Writ.

Know you not that not all have the same calling? Not all have the same Gift? Of coarse everyone who studies the Word of God can learn from it through the Holy Ghost which guides them to Truth. But there are some who God speaks with. There are some that God reveals prophesies too. There are some who receive Visions, and Dreams. There are some who speak with Angels of God. There are some who have the gift of Healing. there are some who have the gift of Tongues. Not everyone has the same gifts or learns the TRUTH is one particular way.

But there is no private interpretation of His Word.

Know you not what that means? NOBODY should interpret the Word of God personally. PERIOD. Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. You study and say this verse means this (private interpretation). i study and say this verse means that (private interpretation). The scholars study the Word and come to agreement that that verse means _________ (private interpretation) But if God speaks and tells me what that verse means, then it is NOT my personal interpretation, but what God told me, which is HIS interpretation, and they are correct and what men say and teach is WRONG.

NO private interpretation of His Word is absolutely correct. But tell me is that not what we constantly hear from this generation. Do they not teach, ah this means that, because this says this and here it says that? Do they not interpret the Word of God through their own intellect, their own studies of the Word of God. They have not heard these things from God, they have came up with their own interpretations and not heard it from God. And let someone claim to have heard from God and see how fast the stones are thrown, to hurt that person, to belittle that person, to cast down that person, to redirect from what that person is saying, to focus on something other that what that person is saying. As i have said, and am not lying what i teach is from God, HE told me these things. People of this generation refuse to believe the Truth, they would much rather continue to believe they are right in what they THINK is the TRUTH, then to believe someone who says they KNOW what the Truth is because it came from God. No not this generation, God speaking to people, impossible right? They take thought, if God has spoken to me, He has not spoken to anyone. Deceived children, believing their own doctrine coming from the minds of men.

We are all to be saying the same thing. And if we stay strictly to His Holy Writ, then we will be saying the same thing. It's when we allow a doctrine of men to influence our interpretation instead of listening to Him in His Word when errors begin to creep into our understanding.

It is written several times to be of one mind, to think the same things. But it is satan using the mind of men, to come up with all sort of interpretations of they Holy writ. Why? Because they altogether FAIL to understand that interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. But that does not stop them from trying to figure out the Word of God for themselves, studying to come up with its great secrets, studying to reveal the prophesies. We are to study the Word of God so that we know how to answer people when then ask us about this or that. BUT interpretations do not belong to men, NO private interpretations. So all those who go about to try to interpret the Word of God, open a door up for satan to come in, why? Because interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. So any person who goes about to try to interpret the Word of God is wrong for doing so, and open the door for satan to get in. Why do you think there are so many false doctrines? Because of a TRUTH, men's interpretations is why. and that is a FACT.

Studying the Word of God to help people is Good
Studying the Word of God to interpret it, is evil and wicked and should not be done.

God will reveal to whom God will reveal interpretations unto. When He so desires to reveal them. Why do you think God told the prophet to seal up those things that he had heard/ Because it is not yet time to reveal what what thundered. But woe to anyone who goes about to interpret the Word of God, it is not in man to do so, and they altogether FAIL to understand Interpretations belong to God, NOT to me, NOT to you, NOT to them, But ONLY God.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

This verse is specifically referring to the New City Jerusalem a very physical place.

Jesus is the Branch. Jesus goes into Heaven to prepare a place for us. That Place is the New City Jerusalem. The Holy City is the Temple of God. and the Throne of God is in the Temple. All this is revealed in Scriptures.

^i^

Not sure if you accidentally misspoke here? You said, "Jesus goes to Heaven to prepare a place for us." Is that what you meant? That isn't the meaning of John 14.

What i said is what God told me. You say it isn't the meaning of John 14, why is that? Because YOU have interpreted John 14?

Jesus states this:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you...

Jesus makes clear that the Father's house (HEAVEN) already has mansions. They are already built.

Know you not that Heaven existed before the Earth was ever created? The Kingdom of Heaven has cities, buildings, mansions, houses, lakes, trees, oceans, rivers, All of it. The Kingdom of Heaven is a real PLACE. And it existed before the Earth was ever even thought of. Lands, castles, EVERYTHING. That is why it is written there is nothing new under the sun. Sure there are many Mansions in Heaven.

Therefore Jesus isn't returning to heaven to build anything.

And why not? Are you saying that Jesus can't no longer create anything at all. Are you suggesting the creator of the Universe CAN'T create anything else? He is going to Heaven to create a place for us, and that place is the New City Jerusalem.

At the time Jesus says this, He isn't looking ahead to His accession back to Heaven. He still has a very big task to complete and one that isn't very pleasant.

I go to prepare a place for you.

So where is Jesus going? ANSWER: To the Cross.

Where is "the place": ANSWER: Heaven where the mansions are already built.

You do error in thinking that Jesus went to prepare a place that is called Heaven. You do not understand, Heaven existed prior to the Earth ever being created. Jesus did not go and create Heaven after He went to the cross.

1Ki_8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

Heaven existed prior to the Cross. So your interpretation that He went to prepare Heaven does not line up with Scriptures. When Adam and Eve was created and the Earth as well, where do you think the Lord lived? Where do you think the Father lived? Where do you think the Angels lived? Heaven is where they lived. This same Heaven, has many mansions, has many Earths, The Place that Jesus went to prepare for us, is a new HOUSE of God. Heaven is not here. But when the New City Jerusalem (God's new house that Jesus prepared, not only for the Saints, but His Father as well.) comes down to the Earth, then Heaven will be ON EARTH, this is when Jesus will reign ON EARTH.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go (To the Cross) and prepare a place for you (In Heaven).

I will come again and receive you to Myself;

When Jesus returns, where is He? ANSWER: He is here on earth.

that where I am (back on earth), there you may be also.

What I believe Jesus is saying in this passage is that He is going to the Cross to prepare our way to Heaven because as we know, NOBODY was admitted to HEAVEN until after the Cross. After the Cross, once a believer dies, that believer immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Father. Now when Christ returns to earth he gathers all of us, dead believers and living believers to Himself right here on earth. This is what He says in the Olivet:

lol, that is what you say the Olivet means. NOT what it says. Jesus never said anyone was admitted to Heaven after the cross, that is what you say, not Scriptures. YOU say after a believer dies they immediately go to Heaven, Which is no where in Scriptures. Yet Scriptures teach those who die in Christ sleep. You say they die to immediately go to Heaven to be with the Father, You say this. Scriptures does not teach that. Now that last part you said is Scriptural When Christ Returns to the Earth, He gathers all those who written in the Book of Life (JUDGEMENT DAY) And it is at that time when everyone is Judged whether they are going to Heaven or to Hell. If you say Jesus comes to get everyone, how is that possible when YOU teach they are already with Him? Interpretations belong to God not to men, see what happens when men try to interpret the Word of God, tons of false doctrines is the result

So the dead believers go to heaven and return with Christ.

Here is proof of private interpenetration at work. YOU have interpreted Scriptures to mean the dead believers go to Heaven, yet you can't show one solitary verse that supports that claim. It is what you have interpreted privately. Scriptures interprets Scriptures correct. Show the Scriptures that teach a person goes to Heaven immediately after death. Oh and before you go quoting the Scriptures that says "I would rather be absent from the body to be present with the Lord" EVERYONE desires that do they not. AN EVIL WICKED person would rather be absent from the body to be present with the Lord, would they not? This does not mean it is a FACT. like this generation likes to believe and satan has decieved them into twisting that verse to mean something that it does not say or mean. i would rather be absent from my job and be present in my Mansion. DOES NOT MEAN, if i am absent from my job, i am in my Mansion. i would rather be absent from my body and be present with the LORD, DOES NOT MEAN, if i am absent from the body that i AM present with the Lord. This is a verse that those who believe the false doctrine that you go immediately to Heaven or to Hell at the time of death use to back up that false belief, WHY? because there is not any verse that teaches that false doctrine, not one, therefore they must grasp at straws to validate their false belief, and they use this verse to do that.

Those believers alive on earth will be gathered to reign with Christ right here on earth. They are not taken to heaven.

This is True.

Christ is to reign 1,000 years over the Nations of the Earth with a Rod of Iron. Until then, Christ is to remain at the Father's right hand until the Father has made the Earth his footstool, which He does with His wrath.

This is True.

David teaches this concept in Psm 110 and it is repeated several times in the NT. It is worth pasting the entire Psalm below.
Christ isn't going anywhere until the below happens, the first verse is clear. There cannot be an earlier Rapture, pre-trib return of Christ before God's wrath as this passage is clear. Christ is ordered to remain at the Father's right hand until AFTER the wrath:

This is True.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes, the place when our Lord Jesus comes is going to be where Jerusalem is today, with the temple layout per Ezekiel 40 through 47, which is what those "mansions" of John 14 are about, the abodes of the priests in the temple layout in Ezekiel.

That Place is the New City Jerusalem. It will be over where Jerusalem is now, it will rest upon four mountains, and in the middle will be a great Valley, a refuge. The Holy City will come down out of Heaven and land over Jerusalem, This place is where the Saints will live. It is out of this Holy city that Jesus rules the Earth with a rod.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yet somewhere between Ezek.47 & 48 there's a dividing line between Christ's Millennial reign and God's Eternal Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth, because the last verse of Ezek.48 tells us God is there, on earth, the Full Godhead having returned to this earth.

The 7 year Tribulation Period serves two main purposes. It wipes the wicked off the planet AND it is terra-forming the Earth, prepping it for the 1,000 year Millennial Period.

The New City Jerusalem comes down with Christ, once you get that into your head, and reread the Word of God then it will become evident to you as well. Jesus is going to prepare a place for US (Saints) and even you yourself say the Saints don't go to Heaven, but are here on the Earth. The New City Jerusalem comes down WITH Christ, He will collect the Saints that are sleeping, and the Saints that are alive, they will be with Him, in the Holy City, that lands over Jerusalem. The Father is there as well in the Holy City. When Jesus Arrives at the 7th Trumpet, there are still 7 vials to poured out for the next 3 1/2 years. It is at the end of the 7 year Tribulation Period, that Jesus hands the Earth over to the Father, this is when the Earth becomes a footstool. But the period between the HOLY City getting here (at the Rapture) and the handing the Earth over to the Father is a 3 1/2 year cleansing period, to wipe the wicked off the Earth to be bound in the abyss with satan and his followers. When Jesus hands the Earth over to the Father, it will be a PERFECT Earth, no wickedness in it at all. Heaven on Earth.

The 7 year Tribulation Period is what creates the New Heaven (atmosphere) and the New Earth (Garden of Eden)

^i^

 

[Jayoish]

What I believe Jesus is saying in this passage is that He is going to the Cross to prepare our way to Heaven because as we know, NOBODY was admitted to HEAVEN until after the Cross. After the Cross, once a believer dies, that believer immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Father. Now when Christ returns to earth he gathers all of us, dead believers and living believers to Himself right here on earth. This is what He says in the Olivet:

Plainword, what the heck? LOL Can you please show me where in the Bible does it say that after the cross, once a believer dies, that believer immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Father? If that is the case, then how can he return and gather dead believers?

The Bible states GOD do not have a respect of person in a couple of places: Roman 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. However, for you to say that after the cross the believers who dies immediately goes to heaven, insinuates that He does have a respect of person for those who died after Jesus came.

I had never heard of such in my life, I guess new things are being made up daily. However, please provide me with the scripture that support your believes; otherwise, if it is merely your thoughts, please refrain from using them on a Bible discussion board. Because Jesus has told us about our thoughts -- Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


Shalom,
Jayoish

 

[Ahwatukee]

What I believe Jesus is saying in this passage is that He is going to the Cross to prepare our way to Heaven because as we know, NOBODY was admitted to HEAVEN until after the Cross.

Hello PlainWord,

The problem with what you are claiming above is that it does not agree with scripture. Here is the scripture, again:

"In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. "

In my Father's house are many dwelling places = Rooms in Heaven

I go and prepare a place for you = Jesus is going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for believer's

I will come again and receive you to Myself = Jesus will return to receive all believers to himself

That where I am, there you may be also = Jesus is taking us to be where he is, which would be at the Father's house and where he will have prepared those dwelling places.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

The above is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age after the wrath of God has been completed, which is a completely different event from when the church is gathered as found in 1 Thes.4:13-18.

1 Thessolonians 4:13-18 = The gathering of the church, dead and living


Matthew 24:30-31 = The return of the Lord to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom

The resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints only and there is no mention of living believer's being changed and caught up at this resurrection. The church/bride is in fact seen as following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine line, bright and clean, which would demonstrate that the church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of it.

 

[PlainWord]

What i said is what God told me. You say it isn't the meaning of John 14, why is that? Because YOU have interpreted John 14?

Correct!!

Know you not that Heaven existed before the Earth was ever created? The Kingdom of Heaven has cities, buildings, mansions, houses, lakes, trees, oceans, rivers, All of it. The Kingdom of Heaven is a real PLACE. And it existed before the Earth was ever even thought of. Lands, castles, EVERYTHING. That is why it is written there is nothing new under the sun. Sure there are many Mansions in Heaven.

Since you agree that the mansions are already there, then Jesus has no need to return to heaven to build them. Jesus was going to the Cross to prepare our way to heaven. That is the meaning of John 14.

And why not? Are you saying that Jesus can't no longer create anything at all. Are you suggesting the creator of the Universe CAN'T create anything else? He is going to Heaven to create a place for us, and that place is the New City Jerusalem.And why not? Are you saying that Jesus can't no longer create anything at all. Are you suggesting the creator of the Universe CAN'T create anything else? He is going to Heaven to create a place for us, and that place is the New City Jerusalem.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Jesus told us in John 14 that heaven already has the mansions for us. In order for us to be able to go to heaven to inhabit those mansions (rooms), Jesus must first die on the Cross. The "New City Jerusalem" comes down out of heaven at the end. Christ wasn't returning to heaven to build it. God is the creator of the heavens and earth and everything in the universe.

You do error in thinking that Jesus went to prepare a place that is called Heaven. You do not understand, Heaven existed prior to the Earth ever being created. Jesus did not go and create Heaven after He went to the cross.

What are you talking about???? You are the one who thinks Jesus was talking about returning to heaven to build us a place there. Of course heaven existed before.

Heaven existed prior to the Cross. So your interpretation that He went to prepare Heaven does not line up with Scriptures.

Go back and read what I said. In John 14 Jesus tells us that He is going to (the Cross) to "prepare a place" or a path for us to go to heaven where the mansions are already built. When He returns (to earth) He gathers us to Himself, here on earth. John 14 is not a "rapture" fly away to heaven passage.

You say they die to immediately go to Heaven to be with the Father, You say this. Scriptures does not teach that.

That is EXACTLY what scripture teaches. You clearly need to read your Bible more, or understand it better. Our body remains here but our soul goes to heaven immediately. I am a little worried that any Christian would not have been taught this.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

If you say Jesus comes to get everyone, how is that possible when YOU teach they are already with Him?

Wow, you really surprised me on this. You don't understand the resurrection. When we die, our body turns to dust and our spirit and soul immediately go to heaven to be with the Lord. At the resurrection, Christ will raise us up and give us a new spiritual body that will never die. I thought every Christian understood this, but apparently not. Here are just some verses for you.

Job 34:15

All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Isaiah 26:19
Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 6:40: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

Show the Scriptures that teach a person goes to Heaven immediately after death.

2 Thes 1: [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.

Where is Paul talking about? Where is he getting his rest?

Where is the altar mentioned below?

Revelation 6:9
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

I Cor 15": [SUP]42 [/SUP]So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. [SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. [SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[PlainWord]

Plainword, what the heck? LOL Can you please show me where in the Bible does it say that after the cross, once a believer dies, that believer immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Father? If that is the case, then how can he return and gather dead believers?

The Bible states GOD do not have a respect of person in a couple of places: Roman 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. However, for you to say that after the cross the believers who dies immediately goes to heaven, insinuates that He does have a respect of person for those who died after Jesus came.

I had never heard of such in my life, I guess new things are being made up daily. However, please provide me with the scripture that support your believes; otherwise, if it is merely your thoughts, please refrain from using them on a Bible discussion board. Because Jesus has told us about our thoughts -- Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


Shalom,
Jayoish

Wow, another one who doesn't understand this. I'm shocked. As Jesus was dying on the Cross and one of the thieves hanging along side Him believed in Him, what did Jesus say to Him?

Luke 23:43

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

So Jesus was immediately (upon death) going to Paradise and so was the now believing sinner. So, just where and what is Paradise? Paul gives us some insight as he had a near death experience as he recounts here in 2 Cor 12:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— [SUP]4 [/SUP]how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words...

Paul was speaking of himself being caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN, which is the HEAVEN where God dwells. This THIRD HEAVEN IS PARADISE and Paul says so. THIRD HEAVEN = HEAVEN = PARADISE

We also have the example of Stephen. When Stephen was being stoned and as death approached, heaven opened up and only Stephen could see it.

Acts 7: [SUP]55 [/SUP]But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, [SUP]56 [/SUP]and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Then as Stephen died, where did his spirit immediately go?

[SUP]59 [/SUP]And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

We know Jesus returned to heaven so that is where Jesus is and was when Stephen died and Stephen's spirit was received by Jesus in heaven.

So my dear sister you and Disciple Dave may want to consider either studying the Word more and/or get out of whatever Church you are in that is not teaching you the Word.