Paster Women?

[PennEd]

Let's remember that we are ALL VITAL, and valuable to the body of Christ. Let's rejoice in each other's gifts and the fact that they are so diverse:

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

 

[coby]

Like I said it is emotional and most react rather than respond.

That is not even close to what I am saying or said.

I, being a saved man/male cannot just read the bible and understand it. I do not have the gift to read it and interpret what it is saying..............I need a teacher with the GIFT to teach me.

If All of us can just read the bible and understand it................what is the point of having GIFTED men that teach? Gods word has always come through the agency of a gifted man to teach us. We don't just miraculously know Gods word.

I think that's quite dangerous. You don't need any man to teach you. The Holy Spirit will. Although I learned from teachers I'm glad that I can test it by simply reading what it says like the Bereans did.
There are also gifted women. Corrie ten Boom was very gifted to preach about forgiveness.

 

[phil112]

......................You ban female from the pulpit, you ban God.............................

That statement is heretical, bordering on blasphemy.
Every single instance you bring up, without getting into the veracity of them the way you use them in your argument, is from the old testament.
In Matthew 20:1-16, Matthew 21:33-43. and Matthew 22:2-14 Christ prophecies the inclusion of the gentile to salvation. He relates the coming event when israel will no longer be favored, but the gentile instead. The gentile was never included in God's favor until Christ. Nothing in the old testament you brought has any bearing or influence on this topic.
Christ brought salvation to you and me. He was the word of God, made flesh, and He taught Paul specifically so that God's word would reach you and I.
Paul brought NO current customs to the table. He brought only what Christ told him to tell you and I, with only one exception. And that one exception had nothing to do with this subject.
It is ludicrous to think that what Paul said concerning women teaching and preaching to men wasn't meant for today. Worse than ludicrous - it is idiotic.
The word of God that Christ died to get to you and I thru Paul, you and many others here turn a deaf ear to.
Heresy.

 

[phil112]

............... Let's rejoice in each other's gifts and the fact that they are so diverse..........................

You never rejoice in the face of false doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is an article about a female apostle.....many times we "interpret" scripture by what we have been taught or by taking a "society norm at the time of writings" and then making it a doctrine forever. it's a good thing we didn't do that for slavery...selah

[h=4]THE APOSTLE JUNIA[/h]In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles." Despite the modern mistranslation of her name as masculine "Junias" or "Junius," no commentator prior to the 13th century questioned that this apostle was a woman.

1 For example, John Chrysostom, whose writings often express misogyny, wrote of Romans 16:7, "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"2 This unanimity of testimony over a milennium is particularly striking since it remained during a long period of eroding toleration of women's ministries in the medieval church. The reason for the witness is simple: all the ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts commending the oustanding apostles in Romans 16:7 read either "Junia" or "Julia", both feminine forms.

Both Junia and Julia were very common ancient Greek woman's names, whereas the masculine alternatives suggested by modern commentators have no manuscript evidence to support them. "Junius" and "Junianus" suggested by some, are perfectly good Roman man's names. However, they occur in NO ancient manuscript of Romans 16:7! Of the hypothetical name "Junias," Bernadette Brooten writes, "What can a modern philologist say about Junias? Just this: it is unattested.

To date, not a single reference in ancient literature has been cited by any of the proponents of the Junias hypothesis. My own search for an attestation has also proved fruitless. This means that we do not have a single shred of evidence that the name Junias ever existed."3 Note that Brooten is not only speaking of the lack of this name in NT manuscripts, but in ANY ancient manuscript, Greek or Latin, secular or sacred!

Certain early manuscripts do contain a variant name, but it, too, is feminine. "Julia" is found in P46, it, cop, eth, and Ambrosiaster. P46, a papyrus manuscript dating about 200 AD, is one of the most ancient and reliable Greek mss of the NT extant. In Romans 16:7, P46 reads "Julia," which can only be feminine. What does this mean? That in Romans 16, St. Paul commends a noteworthy woman apostle. It also means that translators who found a woman apostle unacceptable made up the name "Junias" to substitute their own word for the Word of God. That is how important limiting women's freedom has been to religious legalists. We will find that this attitude and practice have been all too common.

What does the Bible say? Paul calls Junia his kinsman and fellow prisoner. Like Paul, she had suffered persecution and imprisonment for the Gospel. Evidently, her ministry and faith were known even outside the church. Sometimes we forget what early Christians under the iron fist of pagan Rome had to suffer to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. For Junia and Andronicus (perhaps her husband), being an apostle wasn't a matter of privilege, but prison.

According to Romans 16:7, Junia had become a Christian before Paul himself. Since his conversion occurred just a few years after the Resurrection of Christ, Junia must have been one of the earliest converts to Christianity and probably was one of the founders of the church at Rome. She may have traveled to Jerusalem for Passover and witnessed the crucifixion and later, the ascension of the resurrected Christ. Or perhaps she was one of the "visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes," who were converted by the women and men who, filled with God's Spirit, proclaimed "the wonderful works of God" at Pentecost. We know that the Roman church was already well established before Peter and Paul travelled there (Ro. 1:7-13).

Paul writes that after His resurrection, Christ appeared to 500 "brothers" at one time and later to all the apostles, most of whom were still living (I Cor. 15:5-7). In Greek, "brothers" is a generic, figurative term for all true Christians.5 Note also that in the I Cor. 15:5-7 passage, the "apostles" who witnessed the resurrected Christ are distinct from and in addition to the Twelve.

Paul calls himself "the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church" but calls Junia "outstanding among the apostles." It would be wonderful to know more about Junia, Andronicus and the founding of the church at Rome, but this seminal body of believers was largely wiped out during the persecutions of Nero, and their history died with them.

What do we know about the apostles? According to the New Testament, apostles are given by God,6 workers of miracles,6 witnesses who proclaimed Christ's resurrection,7 founders and leaders of churches,8 preachers,9 teachers,10 disciplers, 11 and financial managers of the church.12 While not every apostle was necessarily involved in all these ministries, there is no reason to think that a recognized apostle such as Junia was barred from any of them.

Unlike many churches today, 1st century believers honored the women ministers God gave them. Those who would diminish Junia's contribution should remember that Paul does not refer to her as a lesser apostle, but on the contrary praises her as outstanding among the apostles.

She was so outstanding an apostle that the pagan and Jewish persecutors of Christians saw her as dangerous and imprisoned her to prevent her from continuing her apostolic mission - unsuccessfully, it seems, for she and Andronicus had been released and were bravely continuing to minister in the church at Rome when Paul sent his epistle there.

The Apostle Junia

 

[coby]

That statement is heretical, bordering on blasphemy.
Every single instance you bring up, without getting into the veracity of them the way you use them in your argument, is from the old testament.
In Matthew 20:1-16, Matthew 21:33-43. and Matthew 22:2-14 Christ prophecies the inclusion of the gentile to salvation. He relates the coming event when israel will no longer be favored, but the gentile instead. The gentile was never included in God's favor until Christ. Nothing in the old testament you brought has any bearing or influence on this topic.
Christ brought salvation to you and me. He was the word of God, made flesh, and He taught Paul specifically so that God's word would reach you and I.
Paul brought NO current customs to the table. He brought only what Christ told him to tell you and I, with only one exception. And that one exception had nothing to do with this subject.
It is ludicrous to think that what Paul said concerning women teaching and preaching to men wasn't meant for today. Worse than ludicrous - it is idiotic.
The word of God that Christ died to get to you and I thru Paul, you and many others here turn a deaf ear to.
Heresy.

They can't even preach to men? Corrie ten Boom preached to a bunch of prisoners in Africa who all got saved.
Well I don't understand anyway why any woman would even want to be a pastor and teach men who think they have to shut up. Gimme a break. I've got better things to do. Once gave a lesson to women. My ex made the sermon, only had to share it because it was a bit weird if he taught on that subject. Well they didn't listen at all and knew everything better. That was the last time I gave a lesson. Bye bye!

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a teaching talking about the "social norms of the time of Pauls writing 1 Timothy 2:12"....some may find it interesting seeing as we don't allow slavery anymore so we do progress in our understanding of things when dealing with society norms back in NT times and the interpretation of scripture...


[video=youtube;CDHm7uplV6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHm7uplV6w[/video]

 

[oldethennew]

just our personal expression we would like to share in our own experience with our Holy Saviour: -
there has and has always been an Holy Order...
we who Love Christ must submit and be willing to follow/obey it...for most of us, do we automatically know
His orderly ways and means right off the bat and follow it? of course not, but if we love Him to the point of submission/obedience and gratitude then we will only want to be in a learning state of mind and will always
at any cost, want to be obedient and in His will and His Holy order.

the challenge of our lifetime is in our free-will obedience to humble ourselves and to always be thankful
for the blessing of the WALK that our Heavenly Father has so graciously offered to us....

 

[ember]

Like I said it is emotional and most react rather than respond.

That is not even close to what I am saying or said.

I, being a saved man/male cannot just read the bible and understand it. I do not have the gift to read it and interpret what it is saying..............I need a teacher with the GIFT to teach me.

If All of us can just read the bible and understand it................what is the point of having GIFTED men that teach? Gods word has always come through the agency of a gifted man to teach us. We don't just miraculously know Gods word.

Show me where Paul says the gifts of teaching are for men only

God distributes the gifts as He will...says absolutely nothing about which sex is going to get what

I understood perfectly what you said

You don't realize the import of what you said because you are parroting what you have been taught....by OTHER men

 

[KJV1611]

Here is a teaching talking about the "social norms of the time of Pauls writing 1 Timothy 2:12"....some may find it interesting seeing as we don't allow slavery anymore so we do progress in our understanding of things when dealing with society norms back in NT times and the interpretation of scripture...


[video=youtube;CDHm7uplV6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHm7uplV6w[/video]

Here's why women can't teach or usurp authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[NotmebutHim]

Some thoughts to consider:

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul was dealing with issue of the behavior of the women in the church he had planted there. These women were new to the faith and they were still quite immersed in their pagan worship practices. Notice also, that Paul uses the word "husband" to refer to the men. In other words, he wasn't saying that all women should keep silent in church at all times, but that the women (in the role of wives) should ask their husbands at home (as a way of showing respect to the worship order). So this passage is focusing on the husband-wife relationship as it pertains to proper worship, not men and women in general.

In 1 Timothy 2, Paul used the article "I" when he said that a woman should not have authority over a man. It wasn't a command given directly by God; otherwise Paul would've said something to the effect of "The Lord says" or "It is written" that women should not exercise authority over men. Granted, there are some instances where it would be sinful for women to usurp authority from men (one such being the husband/wife relationship), but again, it depends on the circumstances.

I say this, not to get approval from the ladies or to encourage them to sin against God's order, but rather in an effort to try to understand Scripture.

 

[ember]

Here's why women can't teach or usurp authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

haha...and of course no man has ever been deceived at any time!

so which is worse, being deceived or sinning on purpose?

at any rate, Jesus became a curse for us when He hung on the cross...you good ole boys sure do like to put women back under a curse

King James only indeed!...you think the KJV is inspired..that is definitely walking out deception

 

[Grace777x70]

Here's why women can't teach or usurp authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

....all that is covered in the video too.......

..got any good slavery scriptures? I can find lots of them both in the OT and NT.

The number one rule in interpreting scripture is to look at the people/person/historical setting to whom the letter was written to at the time...which includes the historical narrative of the times they were in so that you can understand what the letter writer is saying.

To take things from the NT social setting and to put it into our time can sometimes lead to weird things...like women now should not be wearing gold or put on dresses or fixing their hair up. Can you see the legalistic confusion that comes in when you don't take what was happening in the historical setting that the scripture was written?

1 Peter 3:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

 

[coby]

Here's why women can't teach or usurp authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Teach is not the same as usurp authority. A woman can't tell her husband what to do and other men, well good luck, they can stump you on your nose if you don't watch out. Teaching is just letting the Holy Spirit use a vessel, male or female.
As if there are no male false teachers who are mislead. I rather listen to Corrie than a male false teacher.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dl181EUC-2k

 

[coby]

And the daughters of Philip were prophetesses. They prophecied in church, silently of course. Hush woman!

 

[oldethennew]

ember,

you are such a precious child, with so much wisdom, we pray that you receive and learn
as we had to, to wait on the Lord and learn the patterns and appropriate times that our Father
gives to us to teach and minister in order for His messages to be heard and heeded and hopefully
applied at the proper times in our brothers and sisters life-times.....

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

And the daughters of Philip were prophetesses. They prophecied in church, silently of course. Hush woman!

It does say your sons and daughters shall prophesy, in fact Paul even said, "Ye may all prophesy"

So he couldnt be speaking of that.

 

[ember]

ember,

you are such a precious child, with so much wisdom, we pray that you receive and learn
as we had to, to wait on the Lord and learn the patterns and appropriate times that our Father
gives to us to teach and minister in order for His messages to be heard and heeded and hopefully
applied at the proper times in our brothers and sisters life-times.....

oh gads

I can't wear that

but I can accept that prayer!..

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Here's why women can't teach or usurp authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Ever look up the word "usurp" there in that verse?

I would be curious as to where that is given to men let alone a woman, you know?

 

[KJV1611]

Some thoughts to consider:

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul was dealing with issue of the behavior of the women in the church he had planted there. These women were new to the faith and they were still quite immersed in their pagan worship practices. Notice also, that Paul uses the word "husband" to refer to the men. In other words, he wasn't saying that all women should keep silent in church at all times, but that the women (in the role of wives) should ask their husbands at home (as a way of showing respect to the worship order). So this passage is focusing on the husband-wife relationship as it pertains to proper worship, not men and women in general.

In 1 Timothy 2, Paul used the article "I" when he said that a woman should not have authority over a man. It wasn't a command given directly by God; otherwise Paul would've said something to the effect of "The Lord says" or "It is written" that women should not exercise authority over men. Granted, there are some instances where it would be sinful for women to usurp authority from men (one such being the husband/wife relationship), but again, it depends on the circumstances.

I say this, not to get approval from the ladies or to encourage them to sin against God's order, but rather in an effort to try to understand Scripture.

It's not Paul's opinion that women are not to teach or usurp the man, they are commanded to be under obedience... this is also written in the law.

1 Corinthians 14:34 KJV
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.