Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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You may not want anyone to come back quoting the Word from the Prophets and the Writings. There are volumes written by men of the Holy Spirit who know far more than anyone posting in a forum online.
You could begin with Psalm 119, then checkout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zacheriah, and all who have witnessed to the goodness and the righteousness conatined in the wisdom of the law, but these all could see without the veil of Moses.
Abraham, hundreds of years before teh law was given, obeyed God. You see there was an oral tradition of the law long before Moses that began with Adam through Noah to Moses.
Again, Jesus Christ teaches in the Gospel, just how to obey the law, and which may be overlooked. Again all may begin with exercising faith, mercy and justice.........this sheds the Light of Christ on all of the law. Living in grace is most natural in observing the law in this manner, but do not believe me, read how Jesus Christ teaches.........
You could begin with Psalm 119, then checkout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zacheriah, and all who have witnessed to the goodness and the righteousness conatined in the wisdom of the law, but these all could see without the veil of Moses.
Abraham, hundreds of years before teh law was given, obeyed God. You see there was an oral tradition of the law long before Moses that began with Adam through Noah to Moses.
Again, Jesus Christ teaches in the Gospel, just how to obey the law, and which may be overlooked. Again all may begin with exercising faith, mercy and justice.........this sheds the Light of Christ on all of the law. Living in grace is most natural in observing the law in this manner, but do not believe me, read how Jesus Christ teaches.........
No man will be seen as innocent being deliberately disobedient while claiming faith in Jesus Christ which leads to grace, for all who live in grace obey the law naturally, by his new nature. Or does anyone believe the Ten commandments are not natural to one who knows he is saved by the Blood of God's Passover Lamb?
Any infraction I may commit in my weakness has its guilt not imputed to me because of the Blood of the Lamb. This is hardly being a lawyer or a legalist, but it is being such to demand others to disobey the will of God.
Why do you suppose we are taught to pry "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven," if we are not to conform to God's will.
A¨s for the law being for the disobedient, yes, it is, for it includes teh punishment of death, that punishment is a law. Try to understand that.
When we come to Jesus, we know that law has no power over us ever again, because we observe and expect believers to use the law with faith, mercy and justice..........this precept seems to not make it into the noggins of those who believe the law is dead and that grace forbids obedience in this manner. Having ears they do not hear, and having eyes they do not see.
Study the prophets, but understand without the veil. Christ's sacrifice should remove that veil.......believe Him.
Any infraction I may commit in my weakness has its guilt not imputed to me because of the Blood of the Lamb. This is hardly being a lawyer or a legalist, but it is being such to demand others to disobey the will of God.
Why do you suppose we are taught to pry "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven," if we are not to conform to God's will.
A¨s for the law being for the disobedient, yes, it is, for it includes teh punishment of death, that punishment is a law. Try to understand that.
When we come to Jesus, we know that law has no power over us ever again, because we observe and expect believers to use the law with faith, mercy and justice..........this precept seems to not make it into the noggins of those who believe the law is dead and that grace forbids obedience in this manner. Having ears they do not hear, and having eyes they do not see.
Study the prophets, but understand without the veil. Christ's sacrifice should remove that veil.......believe Him.
R
Hrftd, why don't you talk more about the blood sacrifice of Christ? Of course you are silent on the blood of Jesus in most of your arguments because it completely exposes the false doctrine you hold. To you, based on your response you made in another thread, no one is safe in the blood of Jesus. Perhaps you mean something else, as you like to shapeshift words and meanings.
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remember, you said that Jesus called them clean -- so you said that "(being clean) is not impossible" -- and i replied with what i'm pretty sure is the scripture you were thinking of (?).
so there are three questions here:
reading on, i think we agree about this:
you're starting to sound like a "gnostic" Peter, hahaha!!
it is the inside of the cup that needs to be cleaned, amen.
and no man can do that to Himself -- instead, it is God who cleans us on the inside, and who gives us a new heart, which is obedient and delights in doing God's will.
this is a change that is done to us - not by us. it is a circumcision not done with human hands, but with divine ones; a thing unseen, which we ought all to then manifest through our lives and conversation, so that it is seen by others, and God can be praised for the works He does in and through us.
in John 13, Christ washes the apostles feet - and He says that whoever has been washed is already clean, and only needs to wash their feet - it's another place where He calls them clean. it stands out to me now, in the context of this discussion, that it is Christ who washes their feet - He does not tell them, "wash your own feet or you will have no part with me!" -- but He does the washing. He says that if He does not wash them, they have no part with Him.
it is a power greater than us who washes us, our hearts, our whole bodies, and even our feet. it is a righteousness that we submit to, rather than establish
so there are three questions here:
- what does PeterJens consider "clean" ? what was PeterJens referring to?
- what does Christ consider "clean" ? what was Christ referring to?
- do Christ and PeterJens agree about who is "clean" in God's eyes?
reading on, i think we agree about this:
you're starting to sound like a "gnostic" Peter, hahaha!!
it is the inside of the cup that needs to be cleaned, amen.
and no man can do that to Himself -- instead, it is God who cleans us on the inside, and who gives us a new heart, which is obedient and delights in doing God's will.
this is a change that is done to us - not by us. it is a circumcision not done with human hands, but with divine ones; a thing unseen, which we ought all to then manifest through our lives and conversation, so that it is seen by others, and God can be praised for the works He does in and through us.
in John 13, Christ washes the apostles feet - and He says that whoever has been washed is already clean, and only needs to wash their feet - it's another place where He calls them clean. it stands out to me now, in the context of this discussion, that it is Christ who washes their feet - He does not tell them, "wash your own feet or you will have no part with me!" -- but He does the washing. He says that if He does not wash them, they have no part with Him.
it is a power greater than us who washes us, our hearts, our whole bodies, and even our feet. it is a righteousness that we submit to, rather than establish
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E
What God called clean is perfect. No blemish.
Even the smallest of all sins a man can commit would make a man unclean. (a blemish is a blemish, There are no good blemishes, a lamb with the slightest of blemished would not be considered for sacrifice on the day of atonment)
How are you doing in that department JJ?
Even the smallest of all sins a man can commit would make a man unclean. (a blemish is a blemish, There are no good blemishes, a lamb with the slightest of blemished would not be considered for sacrifice on the day of atonment)
How are you doing in that department JJ?
"If you are afraid of the law, then you do not understand grace." Where in my statement did I say I was afraid of the Law? To understand grace means to be aware of one's own unworthiness, how? through the law.
"Are you saying that God's law is all a lie? No man can live perfectly by it, this is why Jesus Christ had to die for us all, but grace does not make God a liar." Again, where in my statement did I say that God's law is all a lie? You are correct that no man can live perfectly by it hence only Jesus Christ the Son of God had to die for us all. Yes, grace does not make God a liar.
"When you understand what Jesus Christ teaches, then respond to what I have posted, but please do not make this some kind of contention about God's wisdom in His laws for that is tantamount to saying the Old Testament is a lie, the Psalms and the Prophets teachings, Moses, Abraham.. Please do not teach on what you do not understand."
From my understanding Jesus teaches us to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. And all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. You are getting through to me fine but it seems like I'm not getting through to you. Not contention but merely miscommunication.
"There is prophesy and wisdom in the law, not to forget the law points to Jesus Christ. Apparently ñyou ae still viewing th e law through the veil, were you not so, you would understand Christ's Example and teaching.." You are correct again, the law does point to Jesus. And by looking at Jesus I see that He is pointing at Himself not at the law. He is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Am I looking through a veil with this understanding?
"Too many people think grace is license to call God stupid or a liar. The law is exactly what it is taught to be according to Jesus Christ Who gave it to us in the first place.......Try to see it without the veil." Again, I did not call God stupid or a liar and I can't imagine anyone in this forum that would actually do that. It may be that your assumptions about the people who believe in grace is completely wrong.
Believe me, I'm trying my best to understand you brother and I am not here to insult your beliefs, I'm merely trying to share the wonderful salvation that Jesus has done for us. If you find my beliefs offensive then I apologize. I believe I have done my part as a Christian to share the gospel and I believe that it is up to the Lord to make it grow despite my imperfect efforts. Peace
"Are you saying that God's law is all a lie? No man can live perfectly by it, this is why Jesus Christ had to die for us all, but grace does not make God a liar." Again, where in my statement did I say that God's law is all a lie? You are correct that no man can live perfectly by it hence only Jesus Christ the Son of God had to die for us all. Yes, grace does not make God a liar.
"When you understand what Jesus Christ teaches, then respond to what I have posted, but please do not make this some kind of contention about God's wisdom in His laws for that is tantamount to saying the Old Testament is a lie, the Psalms and the Prophets teachings, Moses, Abraham.. Please do not teach on what you do not understand."
From my understanding Jesus teaches us to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. And all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. You are getting through to me fine but it seems like I'm not getting through to you. Not contention but merely miscommunication.
"There is prophesy and wisdom in the law, not to forget the law points to Jesus Christ. Apparently ñyou ae still viewing th e law through the veil, were you not so, you would understand Christ's Example and teaching.." You are correct again, the law does point to Jesus. And by looking at Jesus I see that He is pointing at Himself not at the law. He is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Am I looking through a veil with this understanding?
"Too many people think grace is license to call God stupid or a liar. The law is exactly what it is taught to be according to Jesus Christ Who gave it to us in the first place.......Try to see it without the veil." Again, I did not call God stupid or a liar and I can't imagine anyone in this forum that would actually do that. It may be that your assumptions about the people who believe in grace is completely wrong.
Believe me, I'm trying my best to understand you brother and I am not here to insult your beliefs, I'm merely trying to share the wonderful salvation that Jesus has done for us. If you find my beliefs offensive then I apologize. I believe I have done my part as a Christian to share the gospel and I believe that it is up to the Lord to make it grow despite my imperfect efforts. Peace
i don't think any of us has that authority -- only God alone.
but the scriptures do say that if anyone comes to us with a different gospel, we should consider them anathema (Galatians 1:8-9), right?
i guess that brings up the question -- can a person still have God's salvation, if they are deceived by a false teaching? or, i guess same thing -- can we still be saved and have wrong or poor understanding about salvation?
i think, personally, yes. that implies, for me, that i could shun someone as being a false teacher, but not go so far as to make any kind of judgement about whether God in His mercy has saved their soul.
It has struck me hard how many people talk about how they believe the law of love, the two great laws actually, and this is good, however when you love people you also hear what they have to say, and this is especially pertainent to loving the Father.
All I think when people say love, love, love their lips, yet teach agains obeying the Father's will, is the words of the prophet, "This people is close to me with their lips, yet far from me with their hearts."
Love is not just with the lips, it inspires action, and by action I do not say earn anything by the law, but I do refer to good works. They are natural when love exists in a believer.
Those who know Jesus Christ know well that the laws. to punish people, for example, do not contain mercy or faith in Jesus Christ, therefor, they are not to be followed, you know this. We do not stone people or execute any for crimes, though many deserve it.
Anyone who has learned from Jesus Christ knows He is the Chief Cornerstone of the Temple, and we are the lively stones thereof, thus no laws of the Temple are to be followed since He has taught us how to observe the law.
Anyone who is learned of Jesus Christ knows that a theocracy called Israel with God as its King does not yet exist on earth, therefore the laws of that geographical situation cannot be obeyed.
Anyone learned of Jesus Christ knows He has made all foods clean.......toss out those laws.
When we are learned of Jesus Christ we know the Ten Commandments are not evil, and we know the laws dealing with moral behavior are good, and we, by our new nature in Christ, obey them gladly in thanksgiving to Him for his living and dying jusst for you and me.
Our new nature makes us obedient to Jesus Christ, Who, by the way, is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Isaiah 9:6.
No one who loves Jesus Christ and has been given the grace to have the guilt of his sin never imputed against him will ever teach against obeying Him. Grace without obedience is a lie, and those who believe it is not are deceived.
Loving God, just as is loving your neighbor, encompasses action and not just the lips.
All I think when people say love, love, love their lips, yet teach agains obeying the Father's will, is the words of the prophet, "This people is close to me with their lips, yet far from me with their hearts."
Love is not just with the lips, it inspires action, and by action I do not say earn anything by the law, but I do refer to good works. They are natural when love exists in a believer.
Those who know Jesus Christ know well that the laws. to punish people, for example, do not contain mercy or faith in Jesus Christ, therefor, they are not to be followed, you know this. We do not stone people or execute any for crimes, though many deserve it.
Anyone who has learned from Jesus Christ knows He is the Chief Cornerstone of the Temple, and we are the lively stones thereof, thus no laws of the Temple are to be followed since He has taught us how to observe the law.
Anyone who is learned of Jesus Christ knows that a theocracy called Israel with God as its King does not yet exist on earth, therefore the laws of that geographical situation cannot be obeyed.
Anyone learned of Jesus Christ knows He has made all foods clean.......toss out those laws.
When we are learned of Jesus Christ we know the Ten Commandments are not evil, and we know the laws dealing with moral behavior are good, and we, by our new nature in Christ, obey them gladly in thanksgiving to Him for his living and dying jusst for you and me.
Our new nature makes us obedient to Jesus Christ, Who, by the way, is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Isaiah 9:6.
No one who loves Jesus Christ and has been given the grace to have the guilt of his sin never imputed against him will ever teach against obeying Him. Grace without obedience is a lie, and those who believe it is not are deceived.
Loving God, just as is loving your neighbor, encompasses action and not just the lips.
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