Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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Say what you mean and mean what you say.
I think it's pretty stupid to continue to argue with so many people when you cannot even back up some simple statements you have made. Refusing to back them up is even more absurd. (Reference here)
I think it's pretty stupid to continue to argue with so many people when you cannot even back up some simple statements you have made. Refusing to back them up is even more absurd. (Reference here)
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If we read all the words of Jesus without taking them in context - we will end up with a confused mess.
The rich young ruler came to Jesus and said.." What must I DO to inherit eternal life" Jesus in response to his "what must I DO "...gave him the law because the law is not based on faith but of "doing".
This exposed his need for a Savior because he wanted to keep his money and thus in reality had broken the first commandment in the Law.
But is keeping the commandments of the Old Covenant the way to eternal life in the New Covenant?..No, Believing in Jesus is the way - the righteous shall live by faith in the grace of Christ.
This is the gospel below...so if we took those words above to the rich ruler as being the words of Jesus to follow blindly -then now we have confusion.
Acts 16:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
There are a few instances like this in the gospels. Here is another one. Jesus said to " Go to Jerusalem and then Samaria to preach the gospel..etc"...how many people have "obeyed" these words of Jesus?
We need to read all the words in context in which it was given and in light of the finished work of Christ. The cross and resurrection changed things.
There is a New Covenant with better promises bought by the blood of our Lord.
Jesus was the greatest law preacher to those that needed the law - to expose their need for a Savior.
Jesus was the greatest grace preacher to those that knew they needed a Savior.
The rich young ruler came to Jesus and said.." What must I DO to inherit eternal life" Jesus in response to his "what must I DO "...gave him the law because the law is not based on faith but of "doing".
This exposed his need for a Savior because he wanted to keep his money and thus in reality had broken the first commandment in the Law.
But is keeping the commandments of the Old Covenant the way to eternal life in the New Covenant?..No, Believing in Jesus is the way - the righteous shall live by faith in the grace of Christ.
This is the gospel below...so if we took those words above to the rich ruler as being the words of Jesus to follow blindly -then now we have confusion.
Acts 16:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
There are a few instances like this in the gospels. Here is another one. Jesus said to " Go to Jerusalem and then Samaria to preach the gospel..etc"...how many people have "obeyed" these words of Jesus?
We need to read all the words in context in which it was given and in light of the finished work of Christ. The cross and resurrection changed things.
There is a New Covenant with better promises bought by the blood of our Lord.
Jesus was the greatest law preacher to those that needed the law - to expose their need for a Savior.
Jesus was the greatest grace preacher to those that knew they needed a Savior.
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Found it. 
I think someone has already discussed this but Truth is absolute. Since you say that God is the source and reference point then automatically God is the absolute truth because He is the source. Peace.
I think someone has already discussed this but Truth is absolute. Since you say that God is the source and reference point then automatically God is the absolute truth because He is the source. Peace.
It can be shown everything we believe or experience is subjective, it is bounded by who we are, how we perceive the world, and out past memories of knowledge and what we have been a part of.
Science limited knowledge to things that should be shown to happen through controlled experiments, which have a predictable outcome. This has been further refined to we can say what something is not, better than a complete description of what is.
Now this understanding makes us humble, and limits our certainty to what it actually is, belief.
And worse still if we construct for ourselves a wrong model or belief we can be convinced it is true, while ignoring the very things that show it is false.
Now we can project that outside ourselves truth exists, which we observe and can believe our understanding of it is correct.
In these discussions some believe doubt is evil and wrong, rather than doubt is about testing the limitations of our experiences. It is why we are called to test things, to be aware things can come at us appearing to be fine, but when looked at slightly differently, shown to be a deception or miss leading.
This perception is called critical thinking, and is foundational to the christian faith and God.
Now people who want to defend their position often use terms like absolute, to avoid the fear that others might show it up by a different perspective. This is why I do not like the term absolute and its history in human thought has not been a good one. You only find absolute to be used in terms of complete refusal or complete purity in scripture.
Now for some this is not black and white enough, but then walking with the Lord is more complex, as these threads demonstrate.
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I have responded to thsi many times, but if I must.
There is only one truth, that which comes from God, and it is absolute and eternal.
When people mistakenly deal with temporal "truths", that in itself is an oxymoron, what they really should say is facts, premises, theories, hypothesees and the like, for anything that deals with this creation allied to corruption is bound for the fire.
The only truth is absolute, now, what about my post on what Jesus taught the Jews and how it applies to all since He came to save His own people first?
For me, smilies are like the laugh and wink saying I am only kidding mentioned in Proverbs.
There is only one truth, that which comes from God, and it is absolute and eternal.
When people mistakenly deal with temporal "truths", that in itself is an oxymoron, what they really should say is facts, premises, theories, hypothesees and the like, for anything that deals with this creation allied to corruption is bound for the fire.
The only truth is absolute, now, what about my post on what Jesus taught the Jews and how it applies to all since He came to save His own people first?
For me, smilies are like the laugh and wink saying I am only kidding mentioned in Proverbs.
Didn't you just say that truth is not absolute a few posts earlier? I'm trying to search for it right now but this thread seems like an eternity.
By the way, I'm also curious if HeRoseFromTheDead and JaumeJ agree with Peterjens that truth is not absolute. Thanks. Peace.
By the way, I'm also curious if HeRoseFromTheDead and JaumeJ agree with Peterjens that truth is not absolute. Thanks. Peace.
I've never said that people acknowledging fault and seeking cleansing are not doing the will of GOD. In fact, I have specifically said numerous times that that is doing the will of GOD.
The publican repented and acknowledged his sin(fullness). False-grace believers do not believe confession of sin and seeking GOD's forgiveness is necessary because they believe that they are already forgiven. Anyone of them who disputes this is either ignorant or a liar. So in effect, they themselves are like the pharisee who do not see their wretched condition before GOD, and the need to repent and be cleansed by his forgiveness.
The publican repented and acknowledged his sin(fullness). False-grace believers do not believe confession of sin and seeking GOD's forgiveness is necessary because they believe that they are already forgiven. Anyone of them who disputes this is either ignorant or a liar. So in effect, they themselves are like the pharisee who do not see their wretched condition before GOD, and the need to repent and be cleansed by his forgiveness.
I wish you could see you are doing nothing but trampling the blood of Christ with your "works-to-remain-saved" theology. You're saying that the blood shed on the cross was not enough for the remission of every sin.
If, as the Bible teaches, Jesus bore the penalty for all sin - the sins of the whole world- how do you figure we can lose our salvation?
Jesus took all the condemnation due us. There is none left for us. We have been acquitted.
Case closed. Justice satisfied.
We have been purchased back by Christ. A slave can run away from his master, but he still belongs to the master.
If all sin wasn't forgiven at the cross, and sinning after initial salvation results in the loss of salvation, then those sins must yet be paid for. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Jesus would have to go back to the cross. And that is something He will never do.
The Bible says that nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39). If we could lose our salvation, then we are indeed, once again, separated from the love of God.
"Who can bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." (John 8:33)
Not us, and certainly not you, HeRose.
If, as the Bible teaches, Jesus bore the penalty for all sin - the sins of the whole world- how do you figure we can lose our salvation?
Jesus took all the condemnation due us. There is none left for us. We have been acquitted.
Case closed. Justice satisfied.
We have been purchased back by Christ. A slave can run away from his master, but he still belongs to the master.
If all sin wasn't forgiven at the cross, and sinning after initial salvation results in the loss of salvation, then those sins must yet be paid for. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Jesus would have to go back to the cross. And that is something He will never do.
The Bible says that nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39). If we could lose our salvation, then we are indeed, once again, separated from the love of God.
"Who can bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." (John 8:33)
Not us, and certainly not you, HeRose.
E
Then how can one ever be so self righteous they think they can earn salvation? Since 24/7 365 days a year, that is exactly what they are, Wretched men, who deserve condemnation.
more yet, how can anyone who were completely broken to the point of repentance and calling out on God, because they saw their complete hopelessness, every not see how hopeless he was (is) and fall back to the state he begged God to get him out of?
more yet, how can anyone who were completely broken to the point of repentance and calling out on God, because they saw their complete hopelessness, every not see how hopeless he was (is) and fall back to the state he begged God to get him out of?
The rich young ruler coming to Jesus
He came to Jesus because he knew there was more to life than just following the law. He wanted an answer to this spiritual and moral question. And the answer Jesus gave was simple. Stop your dependence on wealth, trust God, and come follow me, the Messiah, God on earth and you will be perfect. It was the spiritual relationship this young man was missing which makes all the difference.
He came to Jesus because he knew there was more to life than just following the law. He wanted an answer to this spiritual and moral question. And the answer Jesus gave was simple. Stop your dependence on wealth, trust God, and come follow me, the Messiah, God on earth and you will be perfect. It was the spiritual relationship this young man was missing which makes all the difference.
Grace believers "believe" in the finished work of Christ and we love to confess everything to the Father. We believe that the forgiveness of sins is "the gospel"
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say..
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously in the present
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say..
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously in the present
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
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