BEFORE THE CROSS/AFTER THE CROSS

[Grace777x70]

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the " cart before the horse. "

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

 

[FreeNChrist]

You're mischaracterizing what I'm saying due to your false-grace filter ("lens"), that tries to force the false dichotomy of self-effort/grace on the discussion. I admitted that we cannot clean up the inside of the cup by an act of our will.

Your whole issue is that you conflate self with works of law. That's just a false, disabling belief. GOD gives us the ability to do his will, and we grow in the knowledge of Christ through the application of our own will and efforts in faith. In this way we do not become useless servants who simply imagine that they are doing of will of GOD.

and [for] this same [reason], and [by] applying all diligence, supply with your faith excellence, and with excellence, knowledge, and with knowledge, self-control, and with self-control, patient endurance, and with patient endurance, godliness, and with godliness, brotherly love, and with brotherly love, love. ​For [if] these [things] are yours and are increasing, this does not make [you] useless or unproductive in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8​

Philippians 2:13

"For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases Him."

 

[JesusIsAll]

This is one of those instances where the KJV only people should go to town. So, we are clothed in our righteous deeds? I'm not a translator, myself, don't dissect Greek or cop to any bad translation that better suits some private doctrinal prejudice, which is to be avoided like the plague. This is almost always error, looking to stuff a square peg into a round hole, the greatest theologians I've known, who are not translators, only seeking the Greek sparingly, for clarification.

All great English speaking preachers, the most highly educated, teach from an English translation, knowing they are not philologists, which translators are, nor would they deign to usurp an entire committee of translators. I believe it's uncalled for, an amateur to argue translation, just as it would be foolish for a butcher to argue with a brain surgeon. And to me, as well as my mentors, the King James Version is the English standard. I really don't even trust some fool who tries to run down a good translation of God's word, cherished for many generations of English speaking Christians, cherished among the most educated theologians, somebody who, coincidentally, is coming along with new doctrine the Bible refutes. Legalism is even equated to doctrines of devils. Just using Strong's, which has been good enough for most who aren't butchers, who don't deign to rewrite the Bible, for those who aren't pretending to be linguistic scholars they are not, there are two definitions of Dikaioma general meaning:

1. that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law
2. righteous act or deed

The KJV translators found definition 1 to be true. Now, rather than stuffing words into our prejudices, let's look at Bible context, those who would claim we are clothed in our righteous deeds,

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Of course, there could be a problem with "all" in some peoples' minds, perhaps the 'a' which is confusing, or one of the 'l' characters, or, if one of the 'l' characters in "all" is confusing, then both of the 'l' characters, come to think of it! So sorry, whatever part of "all" our righteousness being filthy rags some people don't get, that's what scripture says.

Otherwise, I don't feel the need to pull out scripture that Christ is our righteousness, His righteousness imputed to us by God's grace, this very clear Bible doctrine, that no sinful flesh has an iota of glory to bring to God. And if we are clothed in a garment of our righteousness, it is not fine linen. It is filthy rags. That's the end of it, according to God's word.

While not of the KJV cult, it is my Bible, this one of many instances the King James is the superior Bible: the translation is actually consistent with the rest of the Bible, in this case even definition 1 in Strong's. Now, I'll let some of you get back to trying to fix what is not broken.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for His own? No one—for God Himself has given us right standing with Himself.” Romans 8:33

 

[PeterJens]

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
When we appear with Jesus we are righteous, cleansed, free from sin.
With love in our hearts, forgiven, and walking in purity we are righteous. We abide in Christ and obey His commands.
Are you saying when redeemed our righteousness is still filthy rags?

Why did Christ die to redeem us then? At what point are the redeemed of Christ truly righteous?

Original sin is used as the excuse of the failure of people to walk in righteousness.

It strikes me you do not believe Christ truly cleanses us and empowers us to walk in righteousness. The argument is not we stand separate from Christ, but our righteousness is real. Else what is the point? Surely we are just a failed people who are eternally pointless.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
When we appear with Jesus we are righteous, cleansed, free from sin.
With love in our hearts, forgiven, and walking in purity we are righteous. We abide in Christ and obey His commands.
Are you saying when redeemed our righteousness is still filthy rags?

Why did Christ die to redeem us then? At what point are the redeemed of Christ truly righteous?

Original sin is used as the excuse of the failure of people to walk in righteousness.

It strikes me you do not believe Christ truly cleanses us and empowers us to walk in righteousness. The argument is not we stand separate from Christ, but our righteousness is real. Else what is the point? Surely we are just a failed people who are eternally pointless.

SELF-righteousness will never be anything more than filthy rags.

 

[PeterJens]

"Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for His own? No one—for God Himself has given us right standing with Himself.” Romans 8:33

Exactly God has cleansed, healed and made us whole, so that with Christ we stand redeemed and righteous.
It is not because we have made ourselves righteous, Christ has, and we can only maintain that by dwelling in communion with Christ.

The problem has always been reading in failure that is covered by Christs righteousness, rather than Paul is saying we are washed, holy, pure, with stain or blemish. What is being claimed is you find a precious jar in the garden you wash it, cleanse it, repair it and make it whole, but in reality it is still dirty, broken and useless. No, it has been made perfect, which is why the whole exercise was done in the first place. To deny this work is to deny the whole reason Christ came and died.

He did not come to die to only have junk unresolved and broken forever. That is of no use.

 

[PeterJens]

The odd contradiction

People talk about self righteousness, when this is a gift of the cross.
These same people claim they have a perfect, holy, pure spirit given to them in their hearts. They just have to walk in it.

So rather than being redeemed, washed, taught, discipled, you already are ready for heaven instantly you are saved, and it is just walking in it, because everything else is just burnt away.

 

[Grace777x70]

The believers have now a new heart in Christ created in righteousness and holiness:

First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a true grace believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[FreeNChrist]

God has given Christians right standing with Himself by giving us His Son, the Righteous One. It is through faith in Him that we are declared righteous, no by some presumed ability you may think you have to "maintain" it.

"...Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."

 

[FreeNChrist]

The odd contradiction

People talk about self righteousness, when this is a gift of the cross.
These same people claim they have a perfect, holy, pure spirit given to them in their hearts. They just have to walk in it.

So rather than being redeemed, washed, taught, discipled, you already are ready for heaven instantly you are saved, and it is just walking in it, because everything else is just burnt away.

The gift of the cross is SELF-righteousness? Really?

 

[PeterJens]

The gift of the cross is SELF-righteousness? Really?

The gift of the cross is the ability to walk righteously.

Think what you are saying. People are sinners, lost in sin, without hope, doomed to failure. Christ died so that they might be forgiven and then walk righteously.

You are saying all this was done so they could stay sinners, slaves to sin.

So nothing, in your ideas, has changed. Jesus and communion by faith is the thing that makes a person who sins into a person who walks righteously.

You continually avoid the question, when are you going to be righteous, without sin? Because you know the next question is why not now rather than then? If God can make you righteous when we see Him, why cannot he do this now. You believe in miracles, that nothing is impossible for God, yet you do not believe this is possible.

The great commission is teach them to obey my commandments. If you need to be taught, it is about learning, practising, being sanctified, transformed through effort. You call all effort works, or self righteous justification rather than this is the means commanded by Christ that we become what he has bought for us, the ability to walk righteously. It is our faith that covers failure and is the seal of grace. Sin is about our emotions, our histories, our hurts, our true desires and needs.

But you do not want to go here, because religion was a way of escaping the chaos, and trying to ignore the damage life has done in your lives. But Jesus is the great healer, he has come to set the prisoner free. So apply your faith and walk in it, believe His words.

 

[FreeNChrist]

For all your many words, what you and a few others here are doing is not really all that complicated. You’re trying to take for yourselves the glory that belongs to Jesus alone.

It takes God in man to be man as God created man to be.....that is the gift of the Cross.

 

[PeterJens]

God has given Christians right standing with Himself by giving us His Son, the Righteous One. It is through faith in Him that we are declared righteous, no by some presumed ability you may think you have to "maintain" it.

"...Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."

Christ's one act of righteousness brought a right relationship with God, yet you are saying sin is greater than this relationship. Where is scripture is this true? Where does God say only are judgement day are you free from slavery to sin.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness. "to obedience, which leads to righteousness" Rom 6:16

Emotions play tricks on us. They tell us behaviour cannot be changed, given a set situation we are trapped. But that is a lie. Jesus has set us free if we dwell in the Spirit and not carnal desires.

It sounds to me like carnal desires rule your heart or else you would say, "Yes I have experienced my faith conquering my desires."

Now I have got to be honest. You would not believe what you do if this had been your experience. So your version of the faith reflects the prison in which you find yourself. Is there hope for you? I do not know unless you call out to Jesus from your heart to give you the healing and love you need to be set free. Else all I see in bondage and failure.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Christ's one act of righteousness brought a right relationship with God, yet you are saying sin is greater than this relationship. Where is scripture is this true? Where does God say only are judgement day are you free from slavery to sin.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness. "to obedience, which leads to righteousness" Rom 6:16

Emotions play tricks on us. They tell us behaviour cannot be changed, given a set situation we are trapped. But that is a lie. Jesus has set us free if we dwell in the Spirit and not carnal desires.

It sounds to me like carnal desires rule your heart or else you would say, "Yes I have experienced my faith conquering my desires."

Now I have got to be honest. You would not believe what you do if this had been your experience. So your version of the faith reflects the prison in which you find yourself. Is there hope for you? I do not know unless you call out to Jesus from your heart to give you the healing and love you need to be set free. Else all I see in bondage and failure.

Apparently you are having a conversation with yourself. Sorry to intervene.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The gift of the cross is the ability to walk righteously.

Think what you are saying. People are sinners, lost in sin, without hope, doomed to failure. Christ died so that they might be forgiven and then walk righteously.

You are saying all this was done so they could stay sinners, slaves to sin.

So nothing, in your ideas, has changed. Jesus and communion by faith is the thing that makes a person who sins into a person who walks righteously.

You continually avoid the question, when are you going to be righteous, without sin? Because you know the next question is why not now rather than then? If God can make you righteous when we see Him, why cannot he do this now. You believe in miracles, that nothing is impossible for God, yet you do not believe this is possible.

The great commission is teach them to obey my commandments. If you need to be taught, it is about learning, practising, being sanctified, transformed through effort. You call all effort works, or self righteous justification rather than this is the means commanded by Christ that we become what he has bought for us, the ability to walk righteously. It is our faith that covers failure and is the seal of grace. Sin is about our emotions, our histories, our hurts, our true desires and needs.

But you do not want to go here, because religion was a way of escaping the chaos, and trying to ignore the damage life has done in your lives. But Jesus is the great healer, he has come to set the prisoner free. So apply your faith and walk in it, believe His words.

Big frowny face.

 

[PeterJens]

For all your many words, what you and a few others here are doing is not really all that complicated. You’re trying to take for yourselves the glory that belongs to Jesus alone.

It takes God in man to be man as God created man to be.....that is the gift of the Cross.

We are proclaiming Christs glory, His free gift of freedom for the prisoner. Paul did not say, woe is me, I am bound by sin and cannot walk properly. No he said

"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." Acts 24:16

"My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." 1 Cor 4:4

"Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace."
2 Cor 1:12

Paul is striving to keep a clear conscience. This is not a passive walk that just happens. It is about walking in faith and action.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Peter, a person once told me: You are living too much with your head, and not enough with your heart.

 

[PeterJens]

Big frowny face.

I am sharing good news of Christs victory. There is a problem is life and it is our emotions. They tell us where we are on the road at the moment, good, successful, or ok coping or overloaded and cast down.

Rejoice, the Lord has brought us new life in Him. Victory over sin and death, a life eternal.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I am sharing good news of Christs victory. There is a problem is life and it is our emotions. They tell us where we are on the road at the moment, good, successful, or ok coping or overloaded and cast down.

Rejoice, the Lord has brought us new life in Him. Victory over sin and death, a life eternal.

I'm just as guilty.