The "Rapture"?

[PlainWord]

I love you brother but we've been over this.

Here's the answer to your question:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven'.

Covenant: league, treaty, contract, etc.

Where are you finding a 2,000 year gap taught in Dan 9. Show me please. You already said that the "he" referred back to the "Prince to Come." The Prince whose people brought an end to offering and sacrifice by destroying the Temple was Titus. This already happened. You now want to ignore the event which had only a 37-40 year break, and instead construct a 3rd temple (which isn't taught) with a 2,000+ year break, then imagine the Jews starting back up animal sacrifices, which would outrage the world, then have another future prince come along and destroy the 3rd temple after making a peace treaty which also isn't taught. Why do you ignore the obvious in favor of the absurd?

There is no mention in any other passage of the "AntiChrist", AKA Man of Sin, AKA King of the North making any 7 year peace contract with Israel. You take one sentence, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering" and parlay it into some crazy future event with no other supporting scripture. The term, "Abomination of Desolation" isn't even found in Daniel 9 so why do you keep going there?

The second decree went out in 445 BC. This is the correct decree to use. 490 Jewish years equals exactly 483 of our solar years. When we get to 1 BC we go to 1 AD and start climbing. We don't go to 0. When 450.5 Jewish years have passed we'd be at 1 BC and make the change to 1 AD so 2 of our years are skipped. This puts 483 Jewish years right at 30 BC and the appearance of Christ as Messiah. We know that Christ died on April 3, 33 AD which is half way into week 70. So there is no week left over for you.

You have to pay careful attention to the list of things that were to be accomplished during these 70 weeks. Destruction of the city and temple are not on the list. Notice it doesn't say 70 weeks are determined for your city to be rebuilt then destroyed or until you are kicked out again. There is no mention of Titus or a future AntiChrist. They are not on the list of things to be accomplished!!

Look at the below list. Christ accomplishes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Daniel's 70 weeks brought about all these things and the Messiah (not some AntiChrist), is the theme of Dan 9.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city:

1) To finish the transgression,
2) To make an end of sins,
3) To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4) To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) To seal up vision and prophecy,
6) And to anoint the Most Holy.

All of these things are associated with Christ and/or the Cross.

1) Transgression ended when the Law ended which happened at the Cross. Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

2) Christ frees us from Sin. Rom 6: [SUP]20 [/SUP]For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

3) Make reconciliation. Rom 5:11: And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18: Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.

4) everlasting righteousness. Rom 5:21: so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

5) seal up vision and prophecy. Rev 5: [SUP]5 [/SUP]But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals...“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood..."


6) anoint the Most Holy. Mrk 14:8: She has done what she could. She has come beforehand to anoint My body for burial. Acts 10:38: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Can you now see every single item on the list was accomplished??? Please drop this 2,000 year break/AntiChrist thing. It doesn't exist!!

 

[PlainWord]

God's wrath will be against all the inhabitants of the earth who have rejected his Son and continue to live according to the sinful nature. Anyone who is here on earth will be exposed to it, which is why the church must be gathered from off the earth according to the Lord's promise, that he would keep us out of "Ek" the hour of trial that is going to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the whole earth.

The Hour of Trial is tribulation, not wrath. We are kept from the Wrath. We are not kept from Tribulation. In fact, Christ Jesus Himself PROMISES us Tribulation.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

God's wrath is not against ALL the inhabitants of the entire planet. He does not kill every sinner or unbeliever with His Wrath. Otherwise, there would be to nations for Christ to rule. God's Wrath is against GOG and MAGOG and all those who "came up against Israel" during the Great Tribulation of Israel.

Eze 38-39: when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken... [SUP]21 [/SUP]I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God....‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog...[SUP]6 [/SUP]“And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands....[SUP]11 [/SUP]“It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel...

Zec 14: [SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

You see, there are people left.

The below passage would be impossible if everyone was killed. It would be hard for the unbeliever to see the judgment if they were killed:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them...[SUP]23 [/SUP]The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them... [SUP]27 [/SUP]When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations,

How can God set his glory among the nations if they aren't any more nations? How could God be hallowed in the eyes of the unbelieving Gentiles if God kills them all?

Paul confirms who gets the wrath. It are those who are persecuting and killing God's People who get the wrath, a repaying of tribulation for the tribulation they have been giving us.

2 Thes 1: [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance...

The Lawless One deceives the Muslims. Muslims attack Israel. Muslims are deceived and follow the false prophet and worship the false god, Allah. The below from 2 Thes 2 deals with them.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now ask yourself, who lives all around Israel and hates Israel? What faith do they follow? This isn't a difficult question to answer but for some reason many can't see it. So who are the people mentioned below that are removed?

Eze 28:[SUP] 25 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God.”’”

Who are those all around Israel who despise them? They are the ones getting judgment. Not the whole planet. Christ and us who serve as priests and kings with Him have to have someone to rule over.

 

[PlainWord]

Well, though the beast will stand in in the Jewish temple proclaiming himself to be God and will have set up that abomination in the holy place, how can you say that it is restricted to Israel, when according to the scripture above, the beast will be given authority over "every tribe and people and tongue and nation." How do you not understand that this means everyone on the planet? Also, I have provided the information regarding Dan.2:31-46 regarding Nebuchadnezzar's statue which represents all human governments where Jesus falls on the feet of that statue smashing it to pieces, which represents the end of all human government and you haven't responded to that. That information is also and especially relevant to end-time events. Revelation is not just about Israel, but about the entire planet, which obviously does center around Israel, but is not restricted to.

Let me answer your question in red. Here's the whole context.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1. He wages war against the saints and overcomes them. Being overcome and being killed are two different concepts. As we see with the 2 witnesses of Rev 11, the beast first wages war, then overcomes, then kills. We lose the spiritual battle for the moment. We lose the ability to convince the world that we are correct, that we follow the true God. Islam prevails until God's Wrath is poured out. The POWER of Christianity on the planet is lost to Islam in the end times.

2. It is only those whose names have not been written in the Lamb's Book of Life who will worship the Beast. Conversely, if your name is written, you will not worship the Beast. I don't plan to worship the beast and I know you don't either.

3. So, we are left with this question of what does it mean to have "authority over" every tribe, tongue and nation??? So what does Authority mean?

the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

We are told in the same Chapter, Rev 13, where this authority comes from:

The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

This authority comes from Satan. Satan will get to elevate his official religion, Islam, to the dominant religion on earth supplanting Christianity which had been #1 for a long time. Is there any doubt that this is happening right now?

 

[popeye]

Hi popeye brother in the love of Jesus,

I'm sorry if I don't quite understand all the details of your viewpoint. Help me out here.

ok, Jesus is the first fruits, I guess we would agree on that.

And the harvest would be the souls of the saved going to heaven. Since Jesus was the first, it would be everybody since then.

You told Nikky84 in post 229 that there are several raptures taught.

Do you believe that the raptures (resurrections) that you speak of all take place, but Paul doesn't mention them?
Or that they are symbolized by the resurrection "at His coming," spoken of here?

Ok,didn't see this.

The problem with your reasoning is that it is one dimensional.

Look at the harvest in rev 14.

Look at the rapture of the 2 witnesses.

Those type things ONLY FIT pretrib rapture,dispensation view,futurism.

Trying to go by smoking guns is a rabbit trail

 

[PlainWord]

Dan.2:31-46 regarding Nebuchadnezzar's statue which represents all human governments where Jesus falls on the feet of that statue smashing it to pieces, which represents the end of all human government and you haven't responded to that.

Not sure what point you are making with this that requires a response?

You do know that the fourth kingdom was Rome and that it was during the Roman Empire that God established His Kingdom which will never been destroyed? This is a spiritual kingdom through Christ Jesus and the Cross.

Rome was divided in two. The Western half was of course Europe with the 5 western toes being the dominant nations of England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy. Even today, these nations are the power brokers in Europe an these nations are largely Christian. The capitol of the EU is of course Brussels where also NATO is headquartered. This is the IRON.

The other half, the Eastern half became Islamic, their capitol is of course Constantinople or Istanbul. Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and Egypt. They are the CLAY. The peoples of Islam and Christianity do not mix. This is why Islam hates Brussels so much. They hate all of the people in the Western leg and Christians in general. There is a darker reason for this but you aren't ready to hear that yet.

Do not confuse the 10 toes with the 10 horns. Different set of countries there.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not sure what point you are making with this that requires a response?

You do know that the fourth kingdom was Rome and that it was during the Roman Empire that God established His Kingdom which will never been destroyed? This is a spiritual kingdom through Christ Jesus and the Cross.

Rome was divided in two. The Western half was of course Europe with the 5 western toes being the dominant nations of England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy. Even today, these nations are the power brokers in Europe an these nations are largely Christian. The capitol of the EU is of course Brussels where also NATO is headquartered. This is the IRON.

The other half, the Eastern half became Islamic, their capitol is of course Constantinople or Istanbul. Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and Egypt. They are the CLAY. The peoples of Islam and Christianity do not mix. This is why Islam hates Brussels so much. They hate all of the people in the Western leg and Christians in general. There is a darker reason for this but you aren't ready to hear that yet.

Do not confuse the 10 toes with the 10 horns. Different set of countries there.

The statue represents the kindoms/governments of the world, with that last ten-toed kingdom of iron and partly baked clay as revived Rome with the iron representing the strength that it once had and the baked clay representing other people mixed into that kingdom so that it doesn't have the same strength that it once did when Rome was in power. The Rock (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowls) smashing the entire statue to pieces, which represents the end of all human government. Then the Rock fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.

The wind swept them away without leaving a trace = the end of all human government

But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth = Christ's millennial kingdom

 

[Ahwatukee]

He wages war against the saints and overcomes them. Being overcome and being killed are two different concepts.

PlainTruth, all you seem to do is circumvent and distort scripture. Any truth that is presented to you, you immediately look for a way to discredit it. That's what you do.

Here are those great tribulation saints whom the beast makes war against and overcomes:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Hour of Trial is tribulation, not wrath. We are kept from the Wrath. We are not kept from Tribulation. In fact, Christ Jesus Himself PROMISES us Tribulation.

This is just more circumvention on your part. The "Hour of Trial" that Jesus said that he would keep all believer's out of, is another designation for "the Day of the Lord." It is the entire period of God's wrath carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[DP]

Except the Anti-Christ will be in charge and given authority.
I believe he will give away the Christian's stuff to gain power because we won't be here.
If Christians were here, they would report us for a reward. Once you came out of hiding to buy or sell, someone would report you and have you arrested.

The beast was given authority to do whatever he wanted:

Get over it. We Christians will be here through the tribulation. That's what Jesus showed His Church in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Luke 17, and what Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 and 1 Cor. 15, and also in 1 Thess.5 and thru John in Rev.16:15.

Pre-trib believers are always trying to pry a hole in the simplicity of the Scriptures about Christ's coming at the end of the trib to gather His Church, just so they can keep their tradition from men.

 

[Chuckt]

Get over it. We Christians will be here through the tribulation. That's what Jesus showed His Church in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Luke 17, and what Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 and 1 Cor. 15, and also in 1 Thess.5 and thru John in Rev.16:15.

Pre-trib believers are always trying to pry a hole in the simplicity of the Scriptures about Christ's coming at the end of the trib to gather His Church, just so they can keep their tradition from men.

[/SIZE]

You mentioned Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24 is not about the Church. It is about the Jewish nation of Israel as we do not live on housetops in America because that is a middle eastern thing in Israel where you live on your roofs. We also don't have an issue working on the sabbath which they do in Matthew 24 so this is not a Church passage. This is a Jewish passage. The passage also mentions Judaea which is not a church location for us.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So no, the context is on my side. The church does not go through the tribulation and this is more proof that I am on the text's side.

 

[popeye]

You mentioned Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24 is not about the Church. It is about the Jewish nation of Israel as we do not live on housetops in America because that is a middle eastern thing in Israel where you live on your roofs. We also don't have an issue working on the sabbath which they do in Matthew 24 so this is not a Church passage. This is a Jewish passage. The passage also mentions Judaea which is not a church location for us.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So no, the context is on my side. The church does not go through the tribulation and this is more proof that I am on the text's side.

Not only that Jesus uses the forbidden word

Flee,(leave,get out,)

I thought we were staying? LOL

POSTRIB COMEDY HOUR

 

[popeye]

Get over it. We Christians will be here through the tribulation. That's what Jesus showed His Church in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Luke 17, and what Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 and 1 Cor. 15, and also in 1 Thess.5 and thru John in Rev.16:15.

Pre-trib believers are always trying to pry a hole in the simplicity of the Scriptures about Christ's coming at the end of the trib to gather His Church, just so they can keep their tradition from men.

[/SIZE]

What would the latest remedy be for rev 14?

A gathering DURING THE GT?
THE EARTH REAPED,DURING THE GT?

maybe that is a misprint huh?

 

[Called4Christ]

Not to derail the thread, but I've been following a lot of the rapture / trib threads for a while. I haven't contributed because I don't feel like I understand enough to feel like I know what the truth is. That said, I'm wondering why you guys think it is so hard to understand. Why do we believe such different things?

We have different interpretations from perfectly intelligent people saying wildly opposite things.

Why is that?

 

[PlainWord]

The statue represents the kindoms/governments of the world, with that last ten-toed kingdom of iron and partly baked clay as revived Rome with the iron representing the strength that it once had and the baked clay representing other people mixed into that kingdom so that it doesn't have the same strength that it once did when Rome was in power. The Rock (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowls) smashing the entire statue to pieces, which represents the end of all human government. Then the Rock fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.

The wind swept them away without leaving a trace = the end of all human government

But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth = Christ's millennial kingdom

You've got most of the prophesy correct but the timing all wrong. It was future to Daniel but in the past to us. It does not discuss the Millennial Kingdom at all. Rather, the Spiritual Kingdom that came when Christ died on the Cross. Christianity spread throughout the world. The rock symbolizes the start of Christianity and it grows into a mountain.

Watch this cool video as it shows it visually in a way that reflects the passage.

The spread of Christianity vs. Islam over the last 2,000 years

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Christianity took over the world. The Kingdom that Christ ushered in at the Cross will never be destroyed. Look at this passage from Dan 7. It tells us what happens when Christ ascended back to heaven after His death and resurrection and after the 40 days before the ascension. Christ is taken up by the "Clouds of Heaven" then we see this next in heaven:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

So, Christ was received back into the presence of God after fulfilling His mission of being our sacrifice. At the time God gives Christ a Kingdom which will never be destroyed. A few days later, the Holy Spirit arrives at Pentecost and Christianity explodes across the earth. WOW!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not to derail the thread, but I've been following a lot of the rapture / trib threads for a while. I haven't contributed because I don't feel like I understand enough to feel like I know what the truth is. That said, I'm wondering why you guys think it is so hard to understand. Why do we believe such different things?

We have different interpretations from perfectly intelligent people saying wildly opposite things.

Why is that?

Hello Called4Christ,

The following is why:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. "

 

[Ahwatukee]

You've got most of the prophesy correct but the timing all wrong. It was future to Daniel but in the past to us.

Scripture says otherwise. Have we seen that ten-toed kingdom yet? No, we haven't. Therefore, until it comes, the prophecy is yet future. Also, it is speaking about Christ's millennial kingdom, for after he falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces, then the Rock that was cut out of he mountain without human hand becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth. That is not spiritual, but is representing the literal thousand year reign of Christ. You just deem it spiritual because doesn't support what you believe. Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece and Rome are all literal, so why wouldn't Christ's kingdom be literal?

 

[PlainWord]

You mentioned Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24 is not about the Church. It is about the Jewish nation of Israel as we do not live on housetops in America because that is a middle eastern thing in Israel where you live on your roofs. We also don't have an issue working on the sabbath which they do in Matthew 24 so this is not a Church passage. This is a Jewish passage. The passage also mentions Judaea which is not a church location for us.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So no, the context is on my side. The church does not go through the tribulation and this is more proof that I am on the text's side.

Now this is interesting. Chuck is absolutely right in the strict reading of the text. The Great Tribulation is aimed at Israel, not the Church. It's funny that Ahwatukee likes this because he thinks the Church is raptured and thus doesn't go through the Tribulation. However, I think Chuck is saying the Church isn't in Israel so it isn't subjected to the Great Tribulation. If that's what Chuck means, I agree with him. However, the church around Israel is getting the tar kicked out of them right now in Syria and Iraq.

 

[Ahwatukee]

However, the church around Israel is getting the tar kicked out of them right now in Syria and Iraq.

The reason that the Christian's in Syria and Iraq are being attacked is because, as I reminded you of so many times, they are suffering from the trials and tribulation that Jesus told us that we would have because of our faith in him. As usual, you are not making a distinction between those trials and tribulations and God's wrath, ergo, Syria and Iraq are not suffering the wrath of God, but the trials and tribulation of men and the powers of darkness. What is coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be God's direct wrath and is completely different from the common trials and tribulation that believer's suffer. Please keep this in mind before making these claims.

 

[PlainWord]

Scripture says otherwise. Have we seen that ten-toed kingdom yet? No, we haven't. Therefore, until it comes, the prophecy is yet future. Also, it is speaking about Christ's millennial kingdom, for after he falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces, then the Rock that was cut out of he mountain without human hand becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth. That is not spiritual, but is representing the literal thousand year reign of Christ. You just deem it spiritual because doesn't support what you believe.

Here and gone dear brother. This is Rome dear brother:

[SUP]33 [/SUP]its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

I already explained the feet and toes. Two feet, a divided kingdom. Rome was divided into West and East. Please go back and read my previous post on the subject to learn what the feet and toes represent. This was future to Daniel but ancient history to us my friend.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;

The above happened after the Cross when Jesus was received back to heaven and the HS came down to the apostles. Pentecost was the official start of the Church Age.

However, the 10 horns are a different matter. The BEAST has 10 horns and they come out of the Roman Empire.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet..

The above is the Rome in Christ's day. This is the same Rome that was split in two with each feet having 5 toes (nations) per foot. Now we see future (really happening right now but you are missing it).

[SUP]20 [/SUP]and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

You see it's these 10 horns that play a big part in the end times tribulation.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

You see this little horn which comes up among the ten and plucks out 3 of them leaving 8 counting itself. Their origin? It's Rome:

‘The fourth beast (ROME) shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth (DID IT? NOT QUITE IF YOU THINK "EARTH" AND PLANET ARE THE SAME),
Trample it and break it in pieces.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom (SEE THAT? THESE 10 ARISE FROM ROME. SO, LOOK FOR THAT).
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High. (THIS IS THE FINAL MONSTER, SO TO SPEAK)

These 10 horns come out of ancient Rome but don't think Rome comes back because it doesn't.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away,

Can I ask you something? Am I totally wasting my time explaining this to you? If so, I'll stop. I'm here to help. Things are happening right now in the Middle East. We are more than half way through the 42 months of Rev 13. This is frightening and exciting. Sad you are missing it.

 

[PlainWord]

Not to derail the thread, but I've been following a lot of the rapture / trib threads for a while. I haven't contributed because I don't feel like I understand enough to feel like I know what the truth is. That said, I'm wondering why you guys think it is so hard to understand. Why do we believe such different things?

We have different interpretations from perfectly intelligent people saying wildly opposite things.

Why is that?

Dear Sister. The reason there are different views are simple. Paul teaches us why this happens.

Romans 12:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; [SUP]7 [/SUP]or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; [SUP]8 [/SUP]he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Some don't have the gift of prophesy but yet they try when they should be using their real gift to further the kingdom. I love my pastor because he is a teaching pastor. He actually preaches the Word and I learn something new every week. However when he preaches on prophesy, he is in second grade like many on here. At least he seems to be post trib but is political about it. Can't blame him for that.

I say this with love and with no disrespect to opposing views.