Losing Salvation

[Grace777x70]

The order can be clearly seen in Peter in Acts 10:34-48. Hearing the message of the gospel comes first. Then they believe. Then the Holy Spirit comes to seal them in Christ.

Then they get water baptized as a representation of what happened to them when they believed.

Acts 10:43-48 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

[SUP]48 [/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Paul in Ephesians shows that the Holy Spirit baptizes believers into the body of Christ when they believe the message of the gospel

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Water baptism comes after one believes and is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

Why don't your read what he wrote about the Christian faith to dertemine if he was a heretic instead of sowing doubt about something you don't know anything about.

Who are you saying knows nothing about something? If I know nothing then it is no thanks to you whose many posts I read on the subject, and you now speak as though you said nothing about John warning against heresies in the first century church. LOL. No apostle ever said water baptism was required for salvation, nor did Jesus. Who cares what any other dead guy said?

 

[MsSuzanna]

The gospel of lawless grace doesn't demand obedience.

Christ does command obedience. He is the lord, not best friend.

He is actually both .

John 15:14
You are My friends, if you do what I command you.


14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

 

[MsSuzanna]

So when you stand before Him, you will point out how YOU obeyed Him and are therefore YOU worthy to enter Heaven.

exactly! I doubt Ill be standing! thats fo sho! Ill be saying that I was never worthy but it is HE IN me that I am worthy! His righteousness put on me that I am anything.....
The atonement of Christ saved me.
None deserve salvation! Its a gift.

 

[MsSuzanna]

While we were YET sinners- implying before He takes our sins away. If it were the case that no one has to do anything, then why are some saved but most are not?

Because the spirit produces fruit in us.
We naturally obey the one who saved us because our hearts and minds are being renewed. BUT, we do not obey to be saved. Its kind of an insult to the gift giver to offer to pay for it!
Do you give your friends money when you get a christmas present?? Wouldnt they be appalled? Well, that is why God decribes works as a filthy womans rag she used at that time of month. Its a stench to his nostrils

 

[jasonj]

So your salvation is based on YOU remaining faithful?
My is based on Jesus.

Do you Love Jesus? honestly ?Do you Love God with alkl of your heart, mind, soul, strength? That is the Greatest commandment. What is it to Love God? If you Love me you WILL obey my commands. refusing to acknowledge obedience to Jesus, is refusing to Love Him. this is not my opinion, but Jesus Own Word, repeatedly. to hear the word and not do it is a deception, the man who will DO Gods word will be blessed in what He does.

Hebrews 10:26-27 "if we deliberately keep on sinning after we receive the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left. but only a fearful expectation of judgement and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

ephesians 5::5-7 " for this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or greedy person ( such a man is an idolater) has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one DECEIVE you with empty words, for because of such things, the WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT, therefore do not be partners with them."

Galatians 6:7-9 "do not be DECEIVED a man reaps what He sows. the one who sows to please His sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction, the one who sows to please the spirit, will reap eternal Life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not Give up."

Galatians 5:19-21 " the acts of the sinful nature are obvious.......v21....I WARN YOU AS I DID BEFORE that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

the wise and foolish builders, the many teachings of Jesus about working, serving, doing....its really throughout the word of God. Hearing only is a deception, and doing is the will of God. its all about whether a person really Loves God with all of their Heart....in doing that we Love each other. sin is not acceptable to God and will not inherit Gods Kingdom. God is Holy, that's why we are called to live holy Lives, called to do what Jesus says. its really plain and clear and abundant in Gods word. to really have salvation were saved, the issue is thinking the sinners prayer gives a person eternal salvation. Jesus Himself, Paul, james, peter ect....all say different, as does the ot, God Himself. so Jesus is to be taken most seriously

 

[jasonj]

Because the spirit produces fruit in us.
We naturally obey the one who saved us because our hearts and minds are being renewed. BUT, we do not obey to be saved. Its kind of an insult to the gift giver to offer to pay for it!
Do you give your friends money when you get a christmas present?? Wouldnt they be appalled? Well, that is why God decribes works as a filthy womans rag she used at that time of month. Its a stench to his nostrils

Id say really its about honoring Jesus if we really Love Jesus, we will honor Him because we truly believe Gods word. and Gods word says He suffered and died to make us new and clean and able to Live as God wills. its really all about obedience once you believe you are saved. all about obedience to Him who died. God needs our full heart, its the Commandment, if He has our heart, He has our actions, simple.

 

[MsSuzanna]

When you obey the gospel you become a Christian.

By whose power are we obeying before regeneration?

 

[AllenW]

I've read the whole thread.
It's about losing one's salvation.
The Apostle John writes to us about these things.
Here are a few verses.

1 John 2:19;
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

1 John 2:20a;
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One,..."

1 John 2:26;
"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray".

1 John 3:6b;
"No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him".

1 John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God".

It seems that John knew people would teach false doctrine concerning salvation, and he calls them antichrists. 1 John 2:18;

Get it together people, John tells us in these passages we cannot lose our salvation.
Such a thought only defeats a Christian.
It does nothing to build him up to be a worthy servant of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[hornetguy]

The order can be clearly seen in Peter in Acts 10:34-48. Hearing the message of the gospel comes first. Then they believe. Then the Holy Spirit comes to seal them in Christ.

Then they get water baptized as a representation of what happened to them when they believed.

That makes sense..... but..... .... I wonder why the people that Philip was teaching/converting had been baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit until Peter and the other apostles laid hands on them?
Surely Philip had taught them correctly, and they believed.... then they apparently were baptized. But..no HS until the apostles laid hands on them.

I had not noticed this until recently, and haven't had a chance to fully think it out, but it's certainly different to other stories of conversion.

 

[MsSuzanna]

Id say really its about honoring Jesus if we really Love Jesus, we will honor Him because we truly believe Gods word. and Gods word says He suffered and died to make us new and clean and able to Live as God wills. its really all about obedience once you believe you are saved. all about obedience to Him who died. God needs our full heart, its the Commandment, if He has our heart, He has our actions, simple.

if He has our heart, He has our actions, simple.

Yep. We honor our king because we are deeply reverent! God is holy. God is our everything!!!
Our reverence ,our surrender to Christ is produced by God! He brings us to repentance. We do not wake one day and say" you know, I am such a wretched sinner!" on our own. No! God draws us to HIM . He leads we follow. He is the shepherd we are the sheep. We were once just a ugly lump of clay.

 

[MsSuzanna]

Which is just another way of saying that those who persevere will be saved. And those who don't, won't.

Who gives us the power to persevere?

 

[Magenta]

That makes sense..... but..... .... I wonder why the people that Philip was teaching/converting had been baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit until Peter and the other apostles laid hands on them?
Surely Philip had taught them correctly, and they believed.... then they apparently were baptized. But..no HS until the apostles laid hands on them.

I had not noticed this until recently, and haven't had a chance to fully think it out, but it's certainly different to other stories of conversion.

Probably most of the apostles if not all of them had already been baptized before they received the anointing of fire administered by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit of God, which is the baptism John promised through Jesus in all four gospels. Two of Jesus' apostles were followers of John the Baptist prior to following Jesus. Many of us were also likely baptized as babies. I know I was. What did that do for me? I had not yet repented and believed. It is likely we all experience our coming to God, our spiritual journeys as it were, differently, even though there would be many shared elements. Such is life!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He is actually both .

John 15:14
You are My friends, if you do what I command you.


14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

Covenant partners were called friends. IMO Jesus was referring to that rather than our concept of friend.

 

[MsSuzanna]

The works will show how much we believed. Those without works will be like the unprofitable slave who did nothing.

Who produces the fruit? Who is it that does the work?

According to your own words, if you are not displaying the work one isnt saved? So, what about the days that you call people names and talk to people like they are dirt? Are you not saved on those days? Or is your flesh overriding your spirit?
We are called to sow towards the spirit so that our flesh who wars with the spirit doesnt have its way

 

[MsSuzanna]

Yes, God will work in me IF I give effort. You cannot just kick your feet up, do nothing, and wait for salvation.

We dont have to wait for anything as far as salvation is concerned. We are justified the minute Jesus saves us! We then are continually sanctified throughout our walk with the Holy Spirit until the day that we will all be glorified!
Who gives you the desire to do his will? And, why do you obey him? Do you obey more today than you did when first saved?
Would you say that we are continually renewed and the fruit is produced accordingly?
Thats is 4 questions I kindly ask you to answer plz.

 

[MsSuzanna]

Faith without works is dead, a dead faith does not save you.

Context.


Faith Without Works Is Dead: Bible Study and Meaning

 

[jasonj]

Yep. We honor our king because we are deeply reverent! God is holy. God is our everything!!!
Our reverence ,our surrender to Christ is produced by God! He brings us to repentance. We do not wake one day and say" you know, I am such a wretched sinner!" on our own. No! God draws us to HIM . He leads we follow. He is the shepherd we are the sheep. We were once just a ugly lump of clay.

yes God draws us to Christ that's scripture. what brings us to repentance, is believing what is in the word of God, wich says " unless you repent, you too will all perish." sin is not in any way acceptable to God. His word says plainly, sinners wont inherit Gods Kingdom. the thing is I don't really need to argue or debate, because the word of God is clear on repentance, and righteousness. we can talk the atonement, once we claim we are new creations, we are obligated to live that out. if someone you truly Loved with all of your heart, saved you from a burning building and died in the flames, left a letter for you of How they want you to honor their memory......What would a person do then? everyone just really seems to want to hold on to the world when we are called to be separate from it. sin will and has never been acceptable to God. Jesus dying doesn't change that, it forgives us for who we were in our former life, and His resurrection Gives us new birth into His righteousness. If I claim the righteousness of Christ as so many do, and live as a sinner who refuses to repent or even acknowledge what Jesus says about repentance, (wich is the first word in His ministry) do you understand what is happening there? what we are doing? we are representing a holy God, claiming His name, and Loving or serving the enemy. it brings the suffering of Jesus Christ Low to act as if it has no power to actually change a person from a sinner to a child of God. honestly when people try to diminish Jesus words, its offensive to a follower of Christ. sin is evil, righteousness is good. this will never change, ever in all eternity. whoever does what is good is of God, whoever does what is evil is not. 1 john 3:7-9. acts 10:34-35" I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism. but welcomes those from every nation who FEAR HIM AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT."

I get why the resistance ive seen it a long time and understand it, used to think it too. Only all throughout Gods word, it says do what is right. DO. follow. 1johnAnd now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming. 1 john 2:28-29If you know that He is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."

1john3:7 " let no one deceive you the one who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous."
3 john1:11 " dear friends do not imitate what is evil, but what is good, THE ONE WHO DOES GOOD IS OF GOD. The one who does evil, has not seen God."

Honestly its just scripture, I'm sorry no one accepts His word, its everywhere you look in the bible. a few statements of paul telling us about us being born again by faith, in no way changes our part in this. Christians one goal forever will be to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.. ....ill pray at least one person will change their thinking and turn their hearts to obedience, because I know how much it will do for their Christian Life. God bless.

 

[Grace777x70]

That makes sense..... but..... .... I wonder why the people that Philip was teaching/converting had been baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit until Peter and the other apostles laid hands on them?
Surely Philip had taught them correctly, and they believed.... then they apparently were baptized. But..no HS until the apostles laid hands on them.

I had not noticed this until recently, and haven't had a chance to fully think it out, but it's certainly different to other stories of conversion.

I see what you mean...great question!


Acts 8:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Obviously they believed first, then were water baptized so if we say that believing in Christ is what saves a person then these people are definite believers in Christ.

Acts 8:15-17 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. ( I wonder if this means anything??..no Holy Spirit mentioned or Father either for that matter..Jesus said to baptize them in all 3 names..perhaps Phillip didn't do that? )

[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

In the above scripture it would seem to indicate that to receive the Holy Spirit you need to have hands laid on you even after being water baptized. So, something else is going on here. Are there different meanings and applications to "receiving the Spirit"?


Then Peter and John came down and prayed that they might receive the Holy Spirit - " For He had not yet fallen on them" - this seems to indicate a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. In verse 18 Simon "saw" that the Holy Spirit had "fallen" on the believers so something had to occur in order for Simon to "see" the Holy Spirit to make him want to buy this authority from the apostles.

I submit to you that what Simon "saw" when the Holy Spirit fell on them was that they were speaking with tongues because they said "the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out "

This is supported by Acts 10 by Peter's account when he preached. People "saw" them speaking in tongues.

Acts 10:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

Acts 10:45-46 (NASB)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

I personally think that the "falling upon" by the Holy Spirit is when people speak in tongues and thus there is a difference between receiving Christ and having the Holy Spirit "fall upon" believers.

I wonder if it had something to do with what they were taught that being baptized in the name of Jesus only as Acts 8:16 talks about - as to the reason why the Holy Spirit never fell on them in manifestation of speaking in tongues.

Perhaps the teaching of being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was what is needed to trigger the "falling upon" aspect of the Holy Spirit?

But in there someplace may be our answer to the water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit thing and the "falling upon by the Holy spirit" seemingly conflicting truths?.

I do know that we are all a product of what we are taught. I was taught the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for every believer and that speaking in tongues was for all today. So, I by faith believed the word and have been praying in tongues ever since. It's as natural to me as breathing.

But that is a whole other subject and there are a few good threads that discuss this in detail so I encourage people to go check those out if they are interested in this. This thread is NOT about that.

 

[jasonj]

exactly! I doubt Ill be standing! thats fo sho! Ill be saying that I was never worthy but it is HE IN me that I am worthy! His righteousness put on me that I am anything.....
The atonement of Christ saved me.
None deserve salvation! Its a gift.

no one deserves or can earn Gods gift of new Life, what we can do though, is take the most valuable thing in existence and use it as a free pass to enjoy sin, because we really aren't saved until we are following Jesus. That's just Jesus words though, seems kind of irrelevant in this forum. When I stand and give MY OWN ACCOUNT of my every word, and action.....I want to hear One phrase " Well DONE my GOOD and FAITHFUL SERVANT....come and take YOUR INHERITANCE, a gift of the God you LOVE and SERVE.

I wont be explaining to God why obeying Jesus was somehow a "corrupt" doctrine lol. Ill just go ahead and actually keep my heart set on What Jesus says to do, and have that clear conscience knowing what He says and obeying it into true Love for My God who Loved me far more, and first. But......My heart is Just set on Loving God, and I take His description made so plain throughout. "if you Love me, you will obey my teaching." I wish we all could agree, but I'm gonna go with obeying the Lord is His will for me and any Christian. never would be found judging what someone else will be saying to Jesus at judgement either, that's again....Not what the word says to do. Children of God, love to follow the Lord, its their Lives, ill let anyone who wishes reconcile this in their minds and hearts : to do the will of God, is Gods will for you and I. DONT BE DECEIVED