my last argument for obedience

[fredoheaven]

agreed may I ask what happens to the tree that never produces fruit? what Jesus says about it? the patient Gardner? what Happens if were fertilized and never produce the fruit of obedience?

What planted by God do always produces fruit. This fruit maybe referred to the Fruit of the Spirit, our changed conduct and converts that we have shared the Gospel. If the person never produces fruit from those I stated, IDK, Let God be God, but I do really believe that a real Christian have its fruit.

God bless

 

[jasonj]

I will also love to hear the stories of factory workers and farmers and those who gave the widows mite. God is good all the time. Amen

and all the time God is Good ! and amen

 

[jasonj]

What planted by God do always produces fruit. This fruit maybe referred to the Fruit of the Spirit, our changed conduct and converts that we have shared the Gospel. If the person never produces fruit from those I stated, IDK, Let God be God, but I do really believe that a real Christian have its fruit.

God bless

YESSSSS amen. that's what shows us to be disciples, we bear fruit and show ourselves to really be His disciples. I'm with you, I'm no ones judge, just pointing to Jesus God bless you abundantly in The Word of God

 

[sparkman]

I don't think you'll find one person of the "grace crowd" that has said we aren't to be obedient to God. The disagreement may come when you start emphasizing the law. Remember, we don't serve in the oldness of the letter but in the newness of the spirit.

Romans 7:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yes, I wonder how much of the anti-obedience criticism is a straw-man. If any professing Christian claims that he can continue in sin with no regard to obedience, that's a pretty obvious sign he's not saved.

Obedience follows salvation, but does not earn, merit or maintain it. It's a fruit of salvation. That's where the vast majority go off the rails.

Or, they define obedience in their terms, such as claiming that the "boundary markers" of the Mosaic Covenant are still applicable (Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meats, or physical circumcision in rare cases), and label everyone else as disobedient.

Or, some few are sinless perfectionists who claim they never sin. Those people have a very poor understanding of God's holiness, if they think they meet this standard...many are likely mentally ill if my experience with them is any gauge. If I set up 3 inch hurdles for myself, I can walk over them with no effort too.

I suppose there are antinomians in the body of Christ though. I just haven't met many here and none in the local fellowships I've been a part of.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, I wonder how much of the anti-obedience criticism is a straw-man. If any professing Christian claims that he can continue in sin with no regard to obedience, that's a pretty obvious sign he's not saved.

Obedience follows salvation, but does not earn, merit or maintain it. It's a fruit of salvation. That's where the vast majority go off the rails.

Or, they define obedience in their terms, such as claiming that the "boundary markers" of the Mosaic Covenant are still applicable (Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meats, or physical circumcision in rare cases), and label everyone else as disobedient.

I suppose there are antinomians in the body of Christ though. I just haven't met many here and none in the local fellowships I've been a part of.

I agree Sparkman. I have never heard anyone say "Go out and sin all you want" and do not "obey Jesus" ( perhaps this is a code word for -you need to understand and apply them like I do?...as you have said above..if not then you are not obeying Christ ).

People do get stuck in various things that are destructive but the real Christian does not want to be in that. They want to walk free from those things - not live in them happily.

IMO This is why we need to be preaching grace as only the grace of Christ has the power to change a person from the inside out. We can temporarily change ourselves outwardly by our own self-effort and human will but usually that does not last.

As we see Christ and keep our eyes on Him and in His finished work for us - the Holy Spirit transforms us outwardly to manifest our true nature in our new creations in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness. We need to participate in this process and desire to live by the spirit within.

The true Christian that is living in continuous sin is the most miserable person on the planet. He is living against his true nature on the inside and is constantly trying to cover up this miserableness. This describes those that deliberately refuse to even desire to walk in who they are in Christ and perhaps in some cases they are not really "in Christ" at all. I'll let the angels at the end of the ages separate the tares from the wheat.

 

[PeterJens]

For my small insight into the discussion on obedience, the core word in love.

Love is hard, it asks us to forgive, to ignore past failures, and work with the weaknesses in others and ourselves, and see God at work.

The spiritual reality is some who walk with Jesus see love as part of legalism, part of a rules based view of God, self righteousness and self justification. The core problem is love presents us with choice.

A week or so ago I asked the Lord about this choice. God wants me to be His child, to choose Him because I love, to see need and meet it, because love in me which He put there says do it. To some this sounds like I am earning salvation, rather than reflecting the very nature of Christ who chose to give up everything to die for us.

Choices in my life have been hard, facing certain realities and sticking with what I know to be true.
Jesus says "Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth."

More than ever the world needs to see people who follow Christ who do not waver, who know His love and share it with others.

 

[Budman]

do any of you have any scripture from Jesus that supports anything you are saying? or anything other than romans? honestly ? Lets see if theres any support from Jesus Christ further than wht I have given. hmmm yeah okay. John chapter 14-15 gonna just leave a few for you all to prayerfully cinsider who is saying it? and what He is saying that really cannot be taken out of context if a person has an open Heart.

John ch 14:v15 . If you Love me you will obey my command....v 21 whoever has my commands and obeys them, HE IS THE ONE WHO LOVES ME. He who Loves me will be Loved by my Father and I too will Love Him and show myself to Him." v 23 " if anyone Loves me, He will obey my teaching, My Father will Love Him and we will come and make our Home with Him. HE WHO DOES NOT love me WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHING. These words you hear are not mine, they are the Fathers who sent me," read about the spirits role in this the next few verses.v 31 but the world must learn That I Love the Father and do as I am commanded." aboput Losing salvation " ch 15 v 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener HE CUTS OFF EB-VERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARS NO FRUIT, ,,the branches who do? are pruned ch 15 v 9as the father has Loved me, so I have Loved you IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS you will remain in my Love, JUST AS I HAVE OBEYED THE FATHER AND REMAIN IN HIS LOVE. what of those who don't remain oir abide in His word? see v 5-6....v14 you are my friends IF YOU DO WHAT I COMMAND. ......


you folks Just straight will deny all this clear scripture? in favor of a few verses in romans? John, James and peter were the three closest to Jesus. maybe take their view into account since they walked with Jesus Christ in the flesh and spirit. Pauls writings are a key to a door, they are not a replacement for the teachings of Christ. salvation is a gift, don't throw it away.; remain in Jesus Christ. if you say well Love one another......He teaches the greatest Love, laying down ourselves. His commands are His commands. I can Just keep giving the truth or we can let it go lol.

More scripture? how many do you folks need to consider the word of God? over the popularity of the do nothing gospel? Ill honor Jesus words, its a free choice now because of the things paul revealed. followers of Jesus Christ is what Christians are. and there is a duty when you are delivered, let no one deceive you Jesus ios the one we claim as Lord........May God grant a softnes to your hearts, that you may receive His words, you can find in your own bible. in the 4 gospels......was gna leave it alone but a lot of deception creeping in.....God bless you though

Jason, before we move forward, please answer this question for me:

Do you, or do you not, believe that all of your sins - past, present, and future - were forgiven at the cross?

 

[tourist]

Jason, before we move forward, please answer this question for me:

Do you, or do you not, believe that all of your sins - past, present, and future - were forgiven at the cross?

I certainly believe this.

 

[mailmandan]

I certainly believe this.

Amen! Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Obedience follows salvation, but does not earn, merit or maintain it. It's a fruit of salvation. That's where the vast majority go off the rails.

I think where people go off the rails is calling the outworking of salvation, fruit. A plant labors to produce fruit; it doesn't just happen passively. Grace doesn't preclude work.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, I wonder how much of the anti-obedience criticism is a straw-man. If any professing Christian claims that he can continue in sin with no regard to obedience, that's a pretty obvious sign he's not saved.

What's the difference between saying that one can continue in sin with no regard to obedience and saying that one can live according to the flesh and still be saved?

There are very definitely some folks here who have claimed the latter.

 

[Utah]

This is a question that corners a man isn't it? The answer is yes and no. My question for you is do you find jasonj being pompous? I do not see that!

Prior to Jason answering my question, yes, I did find him pompous, but not now.

 

[JennaLeanne]

Jasonj pompous ? No way I don't see how anybody could say that about him. I love ya Jay. Dearly xxxxx

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it. Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.


[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us. We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. This speaks of the difference between the 2 covenants. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it. Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15[/COLOR]

This is just silly, but I fear it's the kind of thought process that seduces some folks.

 

[sparkman]

What's the difference between saying that one can continue in sin with no regard to obedience and saying that one can live according to the flesh and still be saved?

There are very definitely some folks here who have claimed the latter.

I'm not sure I am answering your question, but my position is that the overall lifestyle of a person who is saved, viewed across their entire life, will be one that reflects general obedience as a FRUIT of salvation. The fruit is produced by God in that person's life.

Am I saying that they aren't going to have long periods of struggling with a sin issue? No. I went through a long period of struggling with a serious sin issue. At some points I wasn't even struggling very strongly but gave in to it, and was pushing God away in my life. God didn't give up on me. God is faithful to those he has covenanted with, and brings them to repentance.

David was an example of that. Abraham was an example of that. Lot was an example of that. Samson was an example of that.

I probably would have written all of them off if I was a fear and condemnation theology person, but I am not. I have total confidence in God's ability to finish what he started, in spite of the person and his futile efforts.

If the theoretical person in your response claims that a saved person's lifestyle will reflect no obedience overall, I would disagree with them. A changed nature means changed attitudes, purpose and actions. The changed nature will inevitably show through. It will take time for some areas of their lives to be brought into submission by God, though. I'm not appointed to be their fruit inspector either.

 

[Utah]

There can be two sides to this question: "What is it about Jesus' death and Resurrection is not good enough for narrow purity lived out as He instructs, and purposes? And as He demonstrated in Himself here on earth, whom now lives in you and me to succor such provincial ends of God's Kingdom.

Is not your faith: faith not by works but a faith that leads to good works? "For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13). "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

It's, therefore, maybe not a question of Salvation accepted, but of Holiness realized in Salvation well-received.

I appreciate what you've shared about Holiness realized, there is great wisdom in your words, however my question regarding Salvation stands. Jesus' death and Resurrection is good enough or its not.

 

[sparkman]

Here's how some Christians on the forum view themselves

 

[gb9]

I think where people go off the rails is calling the outworking of salvation, fruit. A plant labors to produce fruit; it doesn't just happen passively. Grace doesn't preclude work.

see, here is a works-based mindset: a fruit tree has to work to produce fruit. no,no,no. a apple tree produces apples because that what it does. a truly saved person will do good works, strive to not sin, etc.. because they ARE SAVED.

a grape vine that claims to be an apple tree is not really an apple tree, as people claim to be Christians but are really not.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's how some Christians on the forum view themselves

Raised up in the tradition of the Most High Fruit Inspector

You will recognize them by their fruits: they do not gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles, [do they]? In the [same] way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree is not able to produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree to produce good fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. As a result, you will recognize them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16-20​