Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

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ladylynn

Guest
If a person Is under law then obedience comes first,but If a person Is under grace then faith comes first but Its either law or grace.

Exactly., law and grace can not work together. (One cancels out the other). Read Gen.16 about Hagar and her son Ishmael who was not the seed of promise. Then in Gen.21 the birth of Isaac. Gen.21:9-10 "drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac"

Hagar and Ishmael had to be kicked OUT of the camp by Abraham because God TOLD him to listen to his wife Sarah. Hagar and Ismael had to GO away/get out/be put out forcibly from the camp. Only through 1 Isaac could Abraham's descendants be named.

Abraham had listened to his wife Sarah and went to her handmaiden Hagar to get a son instead of trusting God. They tried to get the promises of God by their own workings. (like we do today)

So even though Abraham didn't want to get rid of his first son Ishmael from Hagar (especially since it was his foolish mistake) he had to get that son that represented "law" out away from his other son Isaac who represents grace. Only Sarah and her son Isaac could stay. Cast the bond woman and her son OUT.

I always thought how cruel that was. But God says the two brothers cannot exist in the same place. Just like today in this forum and in many Christian denominations, people want to keep law and grace together because it just seems to 'make sense' and God says no.,we cannot. The law came by Moses., but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The law is put out and grace has come in.
 
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I believe in every word of God, just not your twist on what is being said. You guys confess you sin, some have even confessed on here they have willfully sinned, but yet can still be saved. But now you say you cannot sin, even though you have confessed already you do sin often. So which is it?


So basically what your saying is when you do sin, it is not your "inner man" that sins, which you believe can never sin, even when your "outer man" does sin all the time. What a load of gnostic garbage you guys have been brain washed into believing and are even pushing as the truth, which is far from it. When you sin, it is not Christ who is sinning, but you!

If you are living in sin, then you are not truly "in Christ" to begin with.

Escape from reality is a proper name for that site you guys learn from. LOL!

Okie dokie....I understand that this is a mystery and is hard to grasp with the natural mind. All sin is done in the flesh - notice it is called the works of the flesh. It is the deeds of the body - that we can stop those deeds of the flesh by the spirit within us in Christ.

No one says to go sin all you want and of course we have said that 100's of times. Neither does any one endorse sinning as it is stupid and destructive to yourself, to those you love and it destroys your witness for the Lord.

Preach and teach the grace of God for it teaches to live godly in this present world. Titus 2:11-12

Sin for the believer does not separate us from being in Christ and that's what throws the works-based mindset to go "tilt". I understand that.

I'll just stick with the scriptures and I do encourage you to meditate on the scriptures below and the ramifications of the below scriptures....and we can just agree to disagree too...all is well....God bless you....:)

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

( The sealing of the Holy Spirit keeps us the evil from going into our inner man in Christ )


The one born of God cannot sin - not once ever ...because that one's inner man of the heart is in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
 
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Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!
Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)
Nope

Acts 15:5-10 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The law of circumsion was the yoke and yes that was nailed to the cross
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!
Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
Romans 3:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I already said that. You are saved by grace alone. However the scripture you pointed out does not say we can make void the law
 
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ladylynn

Guest


And yet..it is impossible for one born of God to sin....sin does not touch the inner man created in Christ...this is what spiritual circumcision does when God cut away our flesh from our inner man of the heart.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. ( The sealing of the Holy Spirit keeps us from the evil going into our inner man in Christ )


The one born of God cannot sin - not once ever ...because that one's inner man of the heart is in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

For many people I've observed...it is impossible to actually believe something supernatural has taken place at the time Jesus took their sin and put within them a new spirit.,sealing us with His Holy Spirit of promise. People are too jaded to actually believe in the supernatural ability of God working in us His beloved sons while here on earth.

A transaction has occurred when we got saved. We were "changed" something happened. We were made alive from the dead in trespasses and sins. He put away from us the condemning sin and put within us Christ's righteousness. This was a supernatural event that we could not do ourselves. The new man is called to walk by faith and not by sight the way the old man walked.

Yet many have one toe in the supernatural ability of God and the rest of their body in the workings of the flesh and how far it will take them.


 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Nope

Acts 15:5-10 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The law of circumsion was the yoke and yes that was nailed to the cross
More proff about the YOKE of bondage

GALATIANS 4 [21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM THE MOUNT SINAI, WHICH GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS AGAR. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.......... [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Is the above scripture speaking of the 10 commandments or is it simply speaking of circumcision?


EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

BOTH the 10 commandments and circumcision were givin as “covenants”

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, COME UP TO ME INTO THE MOUNT, and be there: and I WILL GIVE THEE tables of stone, AND A LAW, AND COMMANDMENTS which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

LEVITICUS 7 [37] THIS IS THE LAW OF THE BURNT OFFERING, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; [38] WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES IN MOUNT SINAI, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Both covenants, the 10 commandments and the law of Moses were given at Mt Sinai.

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] MOSES THEREFORE GAVE UNTO YOU CIRCUMCISION; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day RECEIVE CIRCUMCISION, THAT THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD NOT BE BROKEN; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage” {Gal.4:24}?

And the winner is....

GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.
 
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So basically what your saying is when you do sin, it is not your "inner man" that sins, which you believe can never sin, even when your "outer man" does sin all the time. What a load of gnostic garbage you guys have been brain washed into believing and are even pushing as the truth, which is far from it. When you sin, it is not Christ who is sinning, but you!

If you are living in sin, then you are not truly "in Christ" to begin with.

Escape from reality is a proper name for that site you guys learn from. LOL!
That's why they identify with the inner man, and pretend like the outer man, who sins, doesn't even exist. Salvation by knowing the inner man only. Salvation by gnosis (knowing).
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Here is what we really say.....:)...our faith is based completely on what Jesus has done in His finished work. We believe we are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice and as we have received Him - we continue to walk in Him.

Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

2 Corinthians 4:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

We exalt in the goodness, mercy and grace of our loving Father and the great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

 
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Okie dokie....I understand that this is a mystery and is hard to grasp with the natural mind.


Sounds like I need some special gnosis, or "lens' if you will, to be able to grasp that esoteric knowledge.


Gnosis what I mean?
 
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Knowing about the greatness of our Lord's salvation is for all of us! The things of the Lord cannot be figured out with our human reasoning.

T
hose that are in Christ have the Holy Spirit is in us and He reveals the things that belong to Christ to us, just like Jesus said He would.

1 Corinthians 2:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
 
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Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!
Galatians

The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)
Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)
The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)
To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)
The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)
The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)
The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)
The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)
If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)
The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)
The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)
Not under the law circumcision but....The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. Ya cant even find the word commandments in the whole book. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. Those that wish to do away with Gods 10 commandments will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In saying that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians. The scripture below separates the law, the commandments and the ordinances

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

AND means AND

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.
 
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ladylynn

Guest
Sounds like I need some special gnosis, or "lens' if you will, to be able to grasp that esoteric knowledge.


Gnosis what I mean?

[SUP]
The explanation is found in 1 Cor.2:14
14 [/SUP]But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].
 
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Okie dokie....I understand that this is a mystery and is hard to grasp with the natural mind. All sin is done in the flesh - notice it is called the works of the flesh. It is the deeds of the body
Wrong again. Your doctrine suggests all sin is done on the outside, thus your "inner man" is still sinless even though you still sin with your body.

BUT the words of God tell us that sin originates from within, so once again the words of God prove your doctrine false. Jesus said if a man lusts after a women in his heart he has already committed adultery in his heart. Also in 1 Cor 6:18 it is written "Every sin that a man doeth is without the body"

Jesus also shows where sin originates here....


Mark 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

So this notion that sin is only on the outside is false, and the notion that your "inner man" is not sinning when you are still sinning on the outside is also proven false by the words of Jesus.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Exactly., law and grace can not work together.
So if the law of truth and the Grace of God don't go hand in hand?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) Romans 2:13-15
 
Sep 4, 2012
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So this notion that sin is only on the outside is false, and the notion that your "inner man" is not sinning when you are still sinning on the outside is also proven false by the words of Jesus.
The notion that sin is only on the outside is 100% gnostic. It's the dualistic worldview that matter is evil and spirit is good.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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That's why they identify with the inner man, and pretend like the outer man, who sins, doesn't even exist. Salvation by knowing the inner man only. Salvation by gnosis (knowing).
What they don't understand is that sin originates from the spirit of the inner man, heart and mind. Thus if they confess they sin often outwardly, then we know their "inner man" is not of the same Spirit as Christ. Once again, they have proven themselves and their doctrine reprobate.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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The notion that sin is only on the outside is 100% gnostic. It's the dualistic worldview that matter is evil and spirit is good.
Unless of course they have an evil spirit. LOL The more they talk, the more they expose their false doctrine.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Wrong again. Your doctrine suggests all sin is done on the outside, thus your "inner man" is still sinless even though you still sin with your body.

BUT the words of God tell us that sin originates from within, so once again the words of God prove your doctrine false. Jesus said if a man lusts after a women in his heart he has already committed adultery in his heart. Also in 1 Cor 6:18 it is written "Every sin that a man doeth is without the body"

Jesus also shows where sin originates here....


Mark 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

So this notion that sin is only on the outside is false, and the notion that your "inner man" is not sinning when you are still sinning on the outside is also proven false by the words of Jesus.

1 Cor 6:14 is talking about sinning against our own body. Immorality is sinning against our own body.

The body is not evil within itself. Within the body is the power of sin which is in the flesh Romans 7:14-22


Romans 7:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.


Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. ( the inner man in Christ created in righteousness and holiness )

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

I will answer the heart that is defiled in another post. You are bringing up good stuff to talk about concerning the new creation in Christ...Praise God...:)
 
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ladylynn

Guest
"Because Jesus is God, His sacrifice is greater than the sacrifices of all good men—past, present and future—put together. His sacrifice avails for all who lived in the past, all who are currently alive and all who will live in the future. And His one sacrifice forever took away all our sins.

Jesus’ sacrifice was also an overpayment because His blood is of far more value to God than the blood of bulls and goats used in the past to atone for the sins of the Israelites. His blood is the blood of God Himself, not of animals. Because His blood is eternal, His blood cleanses us forever, so we have eternal forgiveness!"

I read this in this mornings devotional and it was another good reminder to me about how the blood of Jesus supersedes anything I could ever do to save myself.


"His blood is the blood of God Himself, not of animals. Because His blood is eternal, His blood cleanses us forever., so we have eternal forgiveness." Jesus lives after the power of an ENDLESS LIFE.

He is our great High Priest and He sat down at the right hand of God. Unlike the priests who had to continually offer blood sacrifices for the sins of the people back in the old testament times. They never got to sit down., their work was never done. The blood of bulls and goats and all sorts of other animals was constantly flowing day after day.

Because Jesus overpaid your debt, you can truly and completely rest in the presence of God.

How many Christians are still working and never resting in the presence of God? All because they do not trust in the completed and finished work of Jesus and His shed blood on the cross?

It is not about our ability to remember and make an account of every sin and confess every one of them that enables God to forgive us. It's because of God's ability. Because He knew the magnitude of His holiness and also the magnitude of wrath for every sin we ever did or ever would commit and made a complete provision for the total freedom and deliverance from the curse we once had on us. In Christ we are righteous and in no other way (or reason) can we lay claim to our redemption.