Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

[sparkman]

Those bible verses say no such thing.


this verse says Gods Sabbaths, that pertains to things to come , a [future tence].
we also have bible verses in furture mill. everyone will be keeping Gods laws .
the sabbaths are mentioned as being in affect then the in future, not done away.

OT prophets also said the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices would be in effect in the same context. So, by your reasoning, the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices should apply now too.

In fact, if the Law is in effect, all of the Law applies now, not just your Armstrongite cafeteria plan.

Colossians 2:16-17 groups the Sabbath and festivals with New Moons and food and drink offerings, and I am pretty sure you are not observing those. They are grouped in things that are not being observed by Armstrongites..why not?

 

[sparkman]

I get a bit confused about this subject. I have LOTS of questions.

If the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy is no longer true, then why did Jesus and the early Christians do so?

If the laws are no longer to be followed, then why did Jesus emphasize keeping the commandments in his teachings?

If the laws are to be abolished, does one that follows this teaching find it acceptable to break the other commandments as well? I.e. commit murder, adultery, idolatry, etc... If not, then who determines which commandments are important and which are not?

If keeping the Sabbath holy is not important, then why do Satanists believe that those that keep the Sabbath holy are protected and untouchable by their spells and curses? Why is it such an important agenda for Satanists to promote deception about when the Sabbath is and how to keep it holy?

Why have I heard so many testimonies from people about how God began to bless them when they began keeping the Sabbath? If God doesn't care about the Sabbath anymore, then why would he bless them?

I understand that keeping the Sabbath is extremely inconvenient for most people living in the world these days, but are we not supposed to be separate from the world? Shouldn't we maybe trust that God knew what he was doing when he created and numbered the days? Were we not made in his image, and if so, then resting every seventh day like our father would seem appropriate if that was the day he created for it, no?

People that keep the Sabbath holy are constantly met with opposition from the world. Why does it seem so important that they be stopped from doing so?

Just some things to think about. I don't actually expect anyone to have answers to support not sacrificing one day of the week for the Lord. I really don't even see it as a sacrifice if you love the Lord with all heart, mind, soul, and strength. Ah... bu there I go quoting the commandments again. I guess that is probably meaningless to anyone that believes we shouldn't obey the laws of God.

Sometimes I get the impression that people think that God made a lot of big mistakes when he was first starting out and that Jesus came to fix them. The law that we are no longer under is the law of sin and death, and that freedom we have through faith in Jesus; NOT freedom to break the laws of God. Look in the scriptures, you will clearly see which law we are free from.

How can you tell when a child loves his parents? The child trusts their judgment and obeys them. A rebellious child reasons as to why they should not have to do what was told of them. This is why Jesus said, "If anyone loves me, they will hear my commandments and do them."

The issue isn't about obedience to the commandments that apply to the Christian..the issue is which commandments apply. There is also an issue with being a law-driven Christian rather than a spirit-led Christian.

Labeling those who don't observe non-moral elements of the Mosaic Covenant as disobedient or unsaved is a primary characteristic of Judaizers, and Paul himself battled them in the NT, most notably in Galatians.

A person could observe the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean laws with a right attitude, without condemning or judging others, but there are a lot of Judaizers on this forum who do not have this attitude.

Observing the Sabbath and festivals could be used as a worthwhile tool for learning IF the right attitude and right fellowship was involved, but these guys are as far away from that as light is from darkness.

In fact, I'd love to have a fellowship close to me that observes the Sabbath and festivals, without being rock-chucking Judaizers, if it had good theology, but there are no such groups here.

 

[TMS]

There is a difference between the laws of moses and the Ten commandments

 

[sparkman]

Because Jesus Kept the Law perfectly and i am saved by His righteousness does that mean i can continue in sin and stay a slave to it. Or when I believe by faith, does the Law get taken away and murder or lying isn't a sin anymore.

When I keep the sabbath it can't save me because ill fail to do it perfectly. But do i give up? No. the sabbath was made FOR man. A day that God set aside, and made Holy. I remember the day not to be saved but because it is a blessing.
It can be a blessing or a burden depending on why you keep it. I love to rest from this busy world and remember my creator and saviour and I'm glad He commanded me to do no work because I'd get side tracked easily.

Are you grouping the Sabbath in the same context as murder or lying?

I've seen SDAs do that..know what? They are murdering children in their health care facilities by doing elective abortions...that shows how inconsistent they are and how polluted their thinking is.

Some SDAs know this..and they won't even evangelize to Roman Catholics anymore because they know that their organization can't claim consistency when they allow child murder and preach at others concerning the Sabbath.

I encourage others to read the book "Treaty of the Great King" by Meredith Kline to understand the structure of the Mosaic Covenant, and why the Sabbath is included in the Ten Commandments.

Hint: it is the only non-moral sign in the Ten Commandments, and was the covenant sign between God and ancient Israel (Exodus 31). Christians aren't ancient Israel.

 

[sparkman]

There is a difference between the laws of moses and the Ten commandments

No there isn't..the Ten Commandments is the overview of the entire Old Covenant.

SDAs try to claim there's a difference between the Ten Commandments and the Book of the Covenant, but the Ten Commandments is just the overview of the entire Mosaic Covenant. The tablets are called the Covenant in fact..why do you think the Ark is called the Ark of the Covenant? Because it held the Covenant..the two tablets. The Book of the Covenant was the detailed version, and it hung on the side of the Covenant, but all of it was still the Mosaic Covenant.

Besides, most of the Sabbath groups claim that clean/unclean meat laws still apply...why if they are part of the Book of the Covenant, which they claim is not applicable?

The inconsistencies of reasoning amongst most Sabbath/festival observers are many...what it comes down to is that they are pick and choose, cafeteria plan Mosaic Covenant observers. They don't observe the whole Mosaic Covenant, and if they say the Ten Commandments apply, and the Book of the Covenant does not, they still go to the Book of the Covenant and pick elements of it that they claim apply.

The worst thing, though, is that they declare those who don't believe the same as them and their checklist to be unsaved, spiritually inferior, or in sin.

My view is that none of it applies, but a spirit-led Christian can read the Mosaic Covenant and discern, with spiritual eyes, the spiritual and moral principles underlying the specific application given to ancient Israel, and apply those. So, in a way I don't discard it because I look for underlying spiritual and moral principles to guide me. It's useful in that manner, but claiming the specific applications given to ancient Israel apply is an error.

 

[mailmandan]

the bible says

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

​

I have some questions for you:

How many of your responses are cut-and-paste remarks from Armstrongite web sites?

Do you believe that you are going to be God, just like God the Father and Jesus Christ, in the resurrection?

Are you making animal sacrifices in your backyard?

Why don't you create a Sukkoth and live in it during the Feast of Tabernacles if you are observing them in the Biblical manner?

Why are you not making pilgrimages three times a year to Jerusalem if you claim to be following the Scriptural guidelines for observing the festivals?

Why did Paul never mention Sabbath-breaking in the epistles to the Gentiles as a sin?

Why does Colossians 2:16-17 group the Sabbath and festivals with New Moons and food and drink offerings, and why do you observe them and not New Moons and food and drink offerings?

Do you believe that we are spiritually blinded and that you will teach us "the truth" in the Millennium and resurrection?

 

[FlSnookman7]

1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him

 

[FlSnookman7]

All this focus on the sabbath instead of on Jesus, I guess the more things change.....

 

[FlSnookman7]

10 One Sabbath day as Jesus was teaching in a synagogue, 11 he saw a woman who had been crippled by an evil spirit. She had been bent double for eighteen years and was unable to stand up straight. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, “Dear woman, you are healed of your sickness!” 13 Then he touched her, and instantly she could stand straight. How she praised God!
14 But the leader in charge of the synagogue was indignant that Jesus had healed her on the Sabbath day. “There are six days of the week for working,” he said to the crowd. “Come on those days to be healed, not on the Sabbath.”
15 But the Lord replied, “You hypocrites! Each of you works on the Sabbath day! Don’t you untie your ox or your donkey from its stall on the Sabbath and lead it out for water? 16 This dear woman, a daughter of Abraham, has been held in bondage by Satan for eighteen years. Isn’t it right that she be released, even on the Sabbath?”
17 This shamed his enemies, but all the people rejoiced at the wonderful things he did.

 

[FlSnookman7]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD] Mat 12:2
[/TD]
[TD]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Mat 12:3
[/TD]
[TD]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Mat 12:4
[/TD]
[TD]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Mat 12:5
[/TD]
[TD]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Mat 12:6
[/TD]
[TD]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[TMS]

Aren't we told that gentiles are grafted into the tree with Jewish roots. And wasn't the sabbath given before the Jewish people existed

 

[mailmandan]

All this focus on the sabbath instead of on Jesus, I guess the more things change.....

The Sabbath day is a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB).

 

[TMS]

You obviously have a passion to prove SDAs and any other sabbath keeping group as wrong and your fully convinced in your own mind.
Just be careful it doesn't consume you.

 

[TMS]

You obviously have a passion to prove SDAs and any other sabbath keeping group as wrong and your fully convinced in your own mind.
Just be careful it doesn't consume you.

Sorry this was for Sparkman
It was only us at that time

 

[prove-all]

The Sabbath day is a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB).

new bible translations have totaly changed this verses true meaning.
orginal verse words were back in the 4th century before changed.

; but the body of Christ


this means follow what the rock did and said, not follow other mans tradations.



also there are 7 holydays or Sabbaths, not all pointed to the cross​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You obviously have a passion to prove SDAs and any other sabbath keeping group as wrong and your fully convinced in your own mind.
Just be careful it doesn't consume you.

My guess is it's probably therapeutic. I'm thankful for what he does in this issue because he does a thorough, good job. He's a blessing.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

new bible translations have totaly changed this verses true meaning.
orginal verse words were back in the 4th century before changed.

; but the body of Christ


this means follow what the rock did and said, not follow other mans tradations.
​

That verse is probably most accurately translated as "which is a shadow of the impending, namely the body of Christ".

 

[sparkman]

You obviously have a passion to prove SDAs and any other sabbath keeping group as wrong and your fully convinced in your own mind.
Just be careful it doesn't consume you.

No, I don't

I like Jews for Jesus and the Messianic groups like Jerusalem Assembly who don't claim non-observers are in sin, but state that keeping the festivals and Sabbath has some value as a tool for learning. Both the Sabbath and the festivals pointed to Jesus, as much of the Mosaic Covenant did.

If I lived close to such a group, I'd consider fellowshipping with them because they are Christ-centered.

SDAs claim to be the remnant church, and believe other Christians are living in sin for non-observance. They can't help but believe that, due to their presuppositions.

Armstrongites, like prove-all and john832, believe the same thing, except they add on festivals. They don't even consider Sunday observers to be Christians. In addition, they believe they are going to become God beings in the resurrection, same as God the Father and Jesus Christ.

So, who would I fellowship with, if I wanted to fellowship with Sabbath and festival observers? Many of the Hebrew Roots and Messianic Jews teach that Jesus is not fully God, that Paul's writings are not inspired, and deny the Trinity, all of which I affirm. And many of them claim that non-observers are in sin, some even claiming they are not saved. And few of them have a Christ-centered focus.

I am very happy with my Evangelical Free church. They are Christ-centered and they meet on Sunday. So what? The fruit of the Spirit is plainly exhibited amongst them.

Remember, you are talking to a former Sabbath observer, for over a decade, so I have been on your side of the fence too. I see better fruits with the Sunday-meeting Evangelical Free church than I have seen with Sabbath observers.

I really like some Messianic Jews that I've met and talked with, though, particularly ones like Jews for Jesus and Jerusalem Assembly.

So, let me state it again..my issue is with Judaizers who claim others are in sin due to non-observance, not Sabbath observers who don't claim others are living in sin, and that keeping the Sabbath is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation.

 

[sparkman]

That verse is probably most accurately translated as "which is a shadow of the impending, namely the body of Christ".

The same phrase is used with regards to the ceremonial law in Hebrews 10:1-2.

If he is claiming that Sabbaths and festivals are still binding because they haven't been fulfilled, then he has to deal with the similar usage in Hebrews 10:1-2 and the fact that the same phrase "shadow of things to come" is used in the context of the ceremonial law. In addition, they don't observe New Moons or food and drink offerings, so they are being inconsistent in saying that part of the items apply, but others don't.

A very useful comparison is to compare Colossians 2:16-17 with Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11.

Hebrews 9:9-11 identifies "food and drink", used in Colossians 2:16-17, which was only applicable until the "times of reformation", which is when Christ came, as verse 11 indicates. Explicitly, "food and drink" no longer applies..by the way I think food and drink is referring to food and drink offerings. See Numbers 28:24.

Hebrews 10:1-2 places the "shadow of things to come" phrase in the context of the ceremonial law, implicitly identifying "shadow of things to come" with the ceremonial law.

So, Colossians 2:16-17 is mentioning Sabbath and festivals in the exact same context of inapplicable things, either explicitly or implicitly. Let me know if you understand my argument regarding this comparison.

But they will never affirm the logic of this argument because they are indoctrinated in their presuppositions that they do apply, regardless. Instead, they will twist scripture to claim they are the faithful, obedient ones and everyone else is not.

I did the same thing as an Armstrongite. Ironically, though, I asked my Armstrongite pastor why New Moons were mentioned in the same verses, but we did not observe them as Armstrongites. He didn't give me a good reason, but some bogus one. I trusted him, though, because I was taught that he represented the "Government of God" to me, and that to contest his view was the same as challenging God himself. That's another Armstrongite doctrine..the Government of God. Once you become part of them, you submit to the church leadership and to challenge it on major points of doctrine like this was the same as challenging and rebelling against God. The examples of Korah, Dathan and Abiram were used concerning this Government of God doctrine, as well as Aaron and Miriam..when they challenged Moses' leadership and were punished for it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The same phrase is used with regards to the ceremonial law in Hebrews 10:1-2.

If he is claiming that Sabbaths and festivals are still binding because they haven't been fulfilled, then he has to deal with the similar usage in Hebrews 10:1-2 and the fact that it is in the context of the ceremonial law.

A very useful comparison is to compare Colossians 2:16-17 with Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11. Hebrews 9:9-11 identifies "food and drink" which was only applicable until the "times of reformation", which is when Christ came. Hebrews 10:1-2 places the "shadow of things to come" in the context of the ceremonial law. So, Colossians 2:16-17 is mentioning Sabbath and festivals in the exact same context of inapplicable things, either explicitly or implicitly.

But they will never affirm the logic of this argument because they are indoctrinated in their presuppositions that they do apply, regardless. Instead, they will twist scripture to claim they are the faithful, obedient ones and everyone else is not.

Let me know if you understand my argument regarding this comparison.

Very good. Most excellent.