Hi gotime.
See my words in Bold, First thank you for taking the time to respond.
I think an assumption you're making is that Sabbath observance is a moral absolute, like those related to sexual immrality that you mentioned, and I don't have this conviction anymore as an ex Sabbath/festival observer.
Just to correct that Assumption, No I do not believe the Sabbath is a moral absolute. I think it is a memorial of creation. But that is not an assumption, the bible is most clear on that matter, it is not even up for debate.
The Sabbath is a ceremonial or ritualistic aspect of the law. I base my conviction on multiple points of reasoning.
No doubt about that, It is definitely a ceremony or ritual, The question is why? The bible says its a memorial of creation first and foremost.
Here are some of my reasons:
1. The Mosaic Covenant is not applicable anymore. Sabbath is part of the Mosaic Covenant. See Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3
and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Ephesians 2:13-15, and Romans 7:1-6. I see no logical reason for compartmentalizing the Ten
Commandments over the Book of the Covenant, and these verses provide support for my reasoning in making reference to the words
that were written on the tablet.
2. Colossians 2:16-17 mentions the weekly Sabbath as part of those things which are shadows of Christ who is the reality. The Sabbath
pointed to our spiritual rest in Christ (Matthew 11:28-30). It is mentioned in the context of other things which are inapplicable, therefore
the logical conclusion is that it is inapplicable.
3. The Sabbath is not a moral law. Christ compared it to other ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Law, such as circumcision and
the eating of the showbread (see Matt 12). He never mentioned it in the context of moral laws. In addition, he stated in John 5:1-18
that both he and his Father work continually (v. 17) in the context of the Sabbath. The Jews knew that he was making a reference to h
his deity, as they had the belief that God doesn't keep the Sabbath, and thus were enraged with him due to his claims concerning
this (v. 18).
While I am tempted to answer these assertions it would only serve to distract from the issue here. One must work from foundations. The problems with all your points above is they all neglect to acknowledge the purpose of the Sabbath foundation as given in Scripture. To do this is to argue from a distorted perspective, It bases your proposal on false assumptions. For example, You point out that it is not a moral law, however this actually has no baring on weather it should be kept or not. There are commands enjoyed in the new testament that are ceremony such as baptism and the Lords supper, none of which are moral but ritualistic. It simply does not speak to the issue and ignores the primary purpose of the 7th day Sabbath. All your points above do the same thing. not picking by the way, Just pointing out that you are failing to deal with the issue I have brought up.
Regarding Mark 2:28 and the creation account regarding the seventh day:
The assertion is being made that "man" must be generic rather than specific. My response is that the Israelites were men, so regardless of whether the Sabbath was created for the Israelites or mankind in general, your point is inconclusive. We only find the Sabbath being given to ancient Israel in Exodus 16. The Sabbath was "instituted" or "created" for Israel (and Israelites were men) at Exodus 16.
I am sorry but while what you said there may make sense to your mind and others. It is based in no facts at all. The Sabbath was not made in exodus 16, it's importance was taught to them yes, But you have absolutely no evidence or at least have produced none as yet that shows that the Sabbath started in exodus 16. In fact the evidence in scripture is contrary to your assertion here. You have no grounds whatsoever to limit the Sabbath to Israel as the Scripture is clear, crystal clear where the 7th day Sabbath was instituted and made right in Gen 2. And if there was any doubt that this is the same Sabbath of Exodus 16 one only needs to go to chapter 20 where God makes it clear where the Sabbath comes from. You see I have bible facts to back my position. I am not making any of this up. Did God create the Sabbath on the 7th day of Creation? Gen 2 says a resounding yes not a guess not an assumption. Did The 7th day Sabbath given to Israel find its roots in the 7th day Of creation? again the answer is a resounding Yes as Gen 20 says so, again not a guess a bible fact.
Christ's major point in these verses are something that, in my opinion, you should be concerned with. Pharisees were focused on the minute, like some Sabbath observers are focused on the exact day, rather than the practical need for rest. From my reading of what Christ said, he was focused more on the need for physical rest, rather than a test of loyalty to God, as many Sabbath observers claim that it continues to be.
This is your personal view on the issue it does not speak to a proper bible study to ascertain truth.
By the way, I do not deny that the Sabbath has a benefit for rest purposes, if a person is able to rest (slaves in the NT church who were redeemed and had Gentile masters may have not been able to rest). The important issue is whether the Sabbath is a moral issue, and whether the command given to Israel applies to the New Covenant believer as a requirement, and those who are not observing it are being disobedient to God.
If your group was the same as mine, the claim is that those who are not keeping the specific 24 hour time period are in disobedience or rebellion against God, rather than another 24 hour time period. So, the focus, like the Pharisees, is not on a practical need for rest but on the issue of testing the person in relation to obedience.
I will also point out that the Genesis account only says God "ceased" on the seventh day of creation, and that he set apart that particular day, and there is no indication that one day out of every seventh was set apart for humans, until after Israel was given the Sabbath. The word Sabbath is not even mentioned until Exodus 16. So, your arguments are speculative..there is no proof.
Yes there is proof as seen above , you seem to be ignoring the fact on this.
God himself does not stop working on the Sabbath, by the way. And, even the Jews in Christ's day knew that God doesn't stop working on the Sabbath, like some Sabbath keepers claim.
In fact, read John 5:1-18. Christ IMPLICITLY stated that both he and his Father work on the Sabbath in verse 17. In verse 18, it records that they sought to kill him, because he was making himself equal with God.
The Jews knew that God doesn't rest on the Sabbath, and that by claiming that he works on the Sabbath in verse 17, just like God works, he was making an explicit claim to deity.
God, and Christ, hold the entire universe together. They don't take the day off on Saturday or any other day. So, Sabbath-keeping is not an essential aspect of God's character, which defines holiness. If you make this claim, you've got some real issues, as how do you explain Sabbath-keeping being an essential aspect of God's character, since he is not limited by time or space, and the Sabbath command necessarily involves time and location? How did God keep the Sabbath prior to creation? He is Creator, not the created.
I never made this claim, Deal with the issues presented.
There's an article on Mark 2 in this issue of Proclamation! if you want further details on Mark 2:28. Proclamation! is a magazine that is the ministry of Life Assurance Ministries, by Dale Ratzlaff, who is an ex SDA pastor. I don't agree with every point he makes but he is pretty much in line with my perspective.
Proclamation 2015 Fall
As I've mentioned in the past, Colossians 2:16-17 is significant in regards to the Sabbath issue, and SDAs have been unable to provide any reasonable explanation to exclude the weekly Sabbath from Paul's remarks in these Scriptures.
This again is not dealing with the issue of the origin and purpose of the 7th day Sabbath. What you are doing here is ignoring the foundation and then coming in down the end of the evidence and applying your own views. The only way they will work is if your assumptions are right, But as I can see they are not as you do not acknowledge the foundation. We must build on proper biblical foundation. As yet you have given no facts to counter the foundation.
It is plain that the weekly Sabbath is included in these shadows. The progression, which has been exhibited in OT verses as well, is from weekly Sabbath, New Moons, and seasonal festivals, or the reverse order, namely, seasonal festivals, New Moons and weekly Sabbath.
In fact I shouldn't even be using the phrase weekly Sabbath, as there is no indication that
sabbaton is used in any other context other than weekly Sabbath.
sabbaton is translated "week" part of the time, for example, the first day of the week (Sunday) is
mia ton sabbaton in Greek, literally, first of week.
The word sabbaton is basically what you have said here, but you need to do a better and more thorough study on the word. First as you have mentioned it is used in regards to other days also, But I find your translation somewhat lacking. In order to translate the text properly you have to know a few things. 1, The way the Jewish people measured their weeks. They really only had names for what we call Friday and Saturday. Friday was known as preparation day or the day before the Sabbath. Sunday was, day one after the Sabbath. You can find this by doing a study of bible and extra biblical references on their way of regarding the week.
2, once you understand that you need to realise that the new testament is in Greek and is using some greek language rules to explain a Hebrew understanding of the week.
Once you have done that you will find the "first of the week" is not an accurate translation. An accurate translation would be "The [day] one following or after the Sabbath. Jews measured everyday in regard to the Sabbath.
If you go and study the Old testament in regard to the Hebrew use of this word, which is the root of the Greek sabbaton. You will find that it is used not only in regard to the 7th day Sabbath but also the feast Sabbaths.
It is evident then that to make this word in Colossians fit the weekly Sabbath is an error of understanding language and culture. When one does a study on the origin and purpose of the weekly Sabbath as opposed to the enjoined Feast Sabbaths that came later. It is clear that there are other options. and when one studies the purpose and origin of the feast Sabbaths it becomes clear that these are in view in Colosisans.
So your concepts of the use of the word are not right and the bible proves that to be the case. and an understanding of language and culture. I can get more detailed on that issue if you would like for study purposes.
So, the lack of an adequate explanation of Colossians 2:16-17 from the perspective of Sabbath observers continues to convict me it is no longer applicable. The alternative explanations of Sabbath observers on these verses are not compelling, although the SDAs have tried very hard to produce one.
The assumption by many Sabbath observers is that the Sabbath is a moral absolute. I do not agree with this; the Sabbath is not a moral absolute like the laws against committing adultery, etcetera. It is not something which defines God's character, which is the true standard of holiness.
I make this argument on four points:
1) Priests profaned the Sabbath, yet are blameless. See Matthew 12:5. They did very hard work on the Sabbath, making
multiple animal sacrifices, yet they were not guilty of sin. You would not find an example where God would say the same
regarding a moral law; where it was ok for one human to do something, but not ok for another human to do it.
2) Christ ONLY compared the Sabbath with ceremonial or ritualistic laws. For example, he compared the Sabbath with
physical circumcision (John 7:23) and related it to David eating the showbread (Matt 12:3-4).
3)The Sabbath was given to ancient Israel as their covenant sign under the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31). To them, it was a sin to break it, just like it was a sin for them not to circumcise their child on the eighth day. We are not under the Mosaic Covenant...in fact, no one is per the Scriptures I gave..not even the Jews are now under the Mosaic Covenant.
4) God works on the Sabbath, as noted concerning John 5:1-18, so it is not immoral to work on the Sabbath, else God would be immoral, and we know that isn't true.
Again I have made no such argument. While it could be stated that there is a moral reason to keep the Sabbath. One cannot say the Sabbath is moral in itself. at least as I can see. any way not relevant to my position.
Regarding point #1, this is straightforward. Christ said that priests profane the Sabbath, or treat it as common, yet are blameless. So, the Sabbath command applied to the common Israelite, but did not apply to the priesthood. We would not find a moral law that is the same. For instance, it would not be permissible for me to commit adultery, and a sin for you to commit adultery. This isn't the nature of moral laws.
That is a gross misuse of what Jesus is stating. If you read in Leviticus you will understand what Jesus was referring to. The priests could not sin moral on the Sabbath but they still had to do the work of the temple because forgiveness and freedom from sin was to be still offered on the Sabbath also. The works they did were salvational in nature commanded by God through Moses. Jesus taught this lesson in many ways, Like healing people on the Sabbath. Is it lawful to do good or evil he asked.
Regarding point #2, Christ only compared the Sabbath with ceremonial or ritualistic laws. This places the Sabbath in the same context. This reasoning is similar to the reasoning I employ with regards to Colossians 2:16-17. It is grouped in the context of other items that you plainly acknowledge are shadows and types.
As stated above ritualistic or not and I believe they are, speaks absolutely nothing to this issue.
I'll provide this link again that compares the Sabbath with physical circumcision to see how both laws were similarly viewed in relation to the language Scripture uses in regards to them:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117464-sabbath-circumcision-comparison.html
Regarding point # 3, Exodus 31 relates the Sabbath to the unique sign Israel was given regarding their relationship to God in Exodus 31. The Sabbath was never given to Gentiles. Show me one NT reference to the binding requirement of the Sabbath upon Gentiles.
Again this assumption, As a bible student you should deal with what is said not hypothetical questions that distract form the issue. when you say to me show me a reference for the gentiles and the sabbath, you are arguing on silence. I have shown in my original post the danger of arguments form silence. Because silence tells us nothing to start with. and the question is steeped in assumption that the only reason silence could be is because its not important. This is simply bad reasoning and unusable in the argument.
As far as exodus 31 goes, you are assuming again while ignoring the original intent of the Sabbath. You say its a unique sign regarding their relationship with God. Well do you think God would give a sign regarding his relationship to those who don't follow him or have a relationship with him? no or course not. Does God using the Sabbath as a sign take away from its origin? no. You also ignore the fact that Gentiles lived in Israel and they were indeed connected to these things. But Isaiah is clear:
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
I am sure your aware of this fact that the word Stranger is a name for Gentiles. The Sabbath was made by God in the beginning, it was enjoined to those who followed God even Gentiles. This actually serves to prove that the Sabbath is not something only for Jews but for anyone who would enter into relationship with God. In fact if you continue reading you will find that this also applies direct in relation to after Jesus death for our sins.
I've already established in previous conversations that Paul evangelized both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath in the synagogue. I also have stated that Jewish Christians continued to observe many elements of the Mosaic Covenant including physical circumcision (see Acts 21), as a matter of cultural affinity and not a matter of compulsion. So, the traditional "proofs" that Sabbath observers give in this regard are irrelevant.
We don't see a single church meeting which occurred on the Sabbath after the resurrection. Note that I am not saying none occurred, but I am stating that there are no recorded church meetings on the Sabbath; only synagogue meetings with unconverted Jews and Gentiles. However, we do find church meetings on the first day. Paul met with unconverted and converted Jews and Gentiles in the Synagogue, because that was where the Scriptures were housed. They listened to the reading of the Scriptures, and then discussed them on their own on the first day of the week, taking communion at the same time.
This situation continued until anti-Christian sentiments amongst the Jews made it impossible, and then the majority of Christians continued to meet on Sunday.
I am continuing this post with point #4 down below.