Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?
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If salvation was not about choice, then Christ did not have to come and die. He could just wave His magic wand, make His people and take them to the new earth.
Now the real question you are missing, is you, the reader have real value and real power. Jesus is saying He has made you worthy to choose, not just respond. He is saying you are a brother and sister of God, not just servants but a friend.
Now we are so screwed up, so lost, we doubt and hate ourselves. One important lesson is to love ourselves as Christ loves us. When we have begun to really understand and value ourselves we can begin to love others, because they are just like us, lost, confused, dispossed, empty, self condemning, never good enough.
It is interesting that those who claim they see Gods grace are constantly talking about how big a failure they constantly are. I hear this in church as well. This God people say they know so well, must be a very hard task master, and love must be so hard to give. But I see forgiveness, love, understanding, bending down and lifting up those in need.
The two statements that will come to mind, is be perfect as you heavenly Father is perfect, and looking lustfully at another.
Both of these things take time, but the first is about loving your enemy, and the other about openly desiring another inappropriately. I wonder if people find this so hard, do they actually know what they are, and what love is, both sexually and one to one. This is not rocket science.
Now the real question you are missing, is you, the reader have real value and real power. Jesus is saying He has made you worthy to choose, not just respond. He is saying you are a brother and sister of God, not just servants but a friend.
Now we are so screwed up, so lost, we doubt and hate ourselves. One important lesson is to love ourselves as Christ loves us. When we have begun to really understand and value ourselves we can begin to love others, because they are just like us, lost, confused, dispossed, empty, self condemning, never good enough.
It is interesting that those who claim they see Gods grace are constantly talking about how big a failure they constantly are. I hear this in church as well. This God people say they know so well, must be a very hard task master, and love must be so hard to give. But I see forgiveness, love, understanding, bending down and lifting up those in need.
The two statements that will come to mind, is be perfect as you heavenly Father is perfect, and looking lustfully at another.
Both of these things take time, but the first is about loving your enemy, and the other about openly desiring another inappropriately. I wonder if people find this so hard, do they actually know what they are, and what love is, both sexually and one to one. This is not rocket science.
I see where things are getting a little mixed-up. There are those that profess they are sons but they are not as you say. Paul says that we can yield the members of our body onto sin or unto righteousness - guess this is where learning about the grace of Christ comes in handy as it teaches us how to live godly.
So, we have sin in our body now which is why we have the circumcision of the flesh and inner man in Christ by the Holy Spirit where we are sealed unto the day of redemption when we get out new bodies.
Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Let's look at this sin business for a bit. Slander is just as much a sin as fornication. ( Gal. 5 )
So, let's say someone has been slandering other people for a year or for however long. All of a sudden they die...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?...in your thinking they would go to hell?
Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this?
These 2 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" and as you call being a servant to sin ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't gown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them ).
These 2 groups of people in your theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?
So, we have sin in our body now which is why we have the circumcision of the flesh and inner man in Christ by the Holy Spirit where we are sealed unto the day of redemption when we get out new bodies.
Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Let's look at this sin business for a bit. Slander is just as much a sin as fornication. ( Gal. 5 )
So, let's say someone has been slandering other people for a year or for however long. All of a sudden they die...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?...in your thinking they would go to hell?
Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this?
These 2 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" and as you call being a servant to sin ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't gown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them ).
These 2 groups of people in your theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?
You cannot abide in sin and also abide in Christ at the same time, for in Him is no sin. So if one is living in ongoing sin then it is safe to say they were either never really born again and made a new man in Christ, and freed from the bondage of sin. Or they have back slid and need to repent and turn back to Christ, or even worse they have fallen away from the faith completely. If they do not repent and turn back from their sins, then they will die in their sins.
“Anything goes” antinomianism could be also expressed as libertine antinomianism if one is speaking of the variety that says the Christian cannot really sin regardless of what they do. This was common among some of the Gnostics.
The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.
Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.
Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.
One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”
Relativism and Antinomianism: It's Mostly About Sex | Apologetics Index
The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.
Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.
Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.
One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”
Relativism and Antinomianism: It's Mostly About Sex | Apologetics Index
We don't abide in sin because we are in Christ - our inner man is created in righteousness and holiness and as John says in 1 John 3:9 and 5:18 - the one born of God cannot sin - not once nor a million times. It is sealed by the Holy spirit from the flesh. All sin is done in the flesh.
So, the people in the scenarios that are slandering people and that are over eating all the time are going to hell with your theology then. So, in other words those sins are greater then the grace and blood of Jesus that bought them.
I can't swallow that theology as it violates the clear word that we are in Christ as Paul says 174x times in his epistles. It also violates all the words that Jesus said about believing in Him people have eternal life but according to your theory after every scripture that says people in Christ have eternal life - it should have a "but" after it.
I'm going to stick with the gospel of the grace of Christ because as they say in the south "that dog won't hunt".
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
And this is the main error in the false doctrine you guys follow, you said .....
You guys believe wilful ongoing sin for a "believer" does not effect your eternal security.
I actually do believe that wilful sin will affect eternal security. If people wilfully reject the sacrifice of Jesus for sin and try to obtain their own righteousness by doing "good works" - these will die in their sin and face the Lord. Rejecting Christ is a willful sin.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace Galatians 5
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.Romans 8
returning to a law, that never saved you. is pointless. or looking at a law you were never given. for justification, of being saved etc (saviour)
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.Romans 8
returning to a law, that never saved you. is pointless. or looking at a law you were never given. for justification, of being saved etc (saviour)
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And this is the main error in the false doctrine you guys follow, you said .....
You guys believe wilful ongoing sin for a "believer" does not effect your eternal security.
I actually do believe that wilful sin will affect eternal security. If people wilfully reject the sacrifice of Jesus for sin and try to obtain their own righteousness by doing "good works" - these will die in their sin and face the Lord. Rejecting Christ is a willful sin.
This video below should help to clear up the mis-percepetions of this myth about antinomian. It is a common thing as Paul himself was accused of the very same thing - 4x times in Romans alone.
Here is an article that addresses that myth for anyone interested.
https://escapetoreality.org/2014/09/09/hyper-grace-lawlessness/
[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]
Here is an article that addresses that myth for anyone interested.
https://escapetoreality.org/2014/09/09/hyper-grace-lawlessness/
[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]
And this is the main error in the false doctrine you guys follow, you said .....
You guys believe wilful ongoing sin for a "believer" does not effect your eternal security.
I actually do believe that wilful sin will affect eternal security. If people wilfully reject the sacrifice of Jesus for sin and try to obtain their own righteousness by doing "good works" - these will die in their sin and face the Lord. Rejecting Christ is a willful sin.
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