House of Cornelius and the law

[BibleGuy]

ah, I see... diaspora in the sense of most christians living outside of Israel. But it doesn't sound like there's anything preventing jewish people from moving.



yes, I agree that there is a growing movement in christianity to make it more "jewish". but also, a growing resistance to that.

yes, fully keeping torah is what it's all about... just a matter of the best way to go about that.

Hi Dan_473!

You wrote: "But it doesn't sound like there's anything preventing jewish people from moving."

My response: No...actually...the Israeli government is presently considerably anti-Yeshua.

So, Jewish followers outside Israel are evidently not permitted to make aliyah.

See: Israeli Court Rules Jews for Jesus Cannot Automatically Be Citizens - NYTimes.com

Things will change (according to the prophets)...but we're not there yet!

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I meant the pattern of the apostles when translating, how they translated.







in your view, has the old covenant passed away since the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews?

Hey again!

You wrote: "I meant the pattern of the apostles when translating, how they translated."

My response: Ok...sure, continue the tradition of translating YHVH as "kurious" in GREEK, if you live in the 1st century, and if Greek is the widespread language of that time (which it was). But if you don't even speak Greek, or if Greek is not even the widespread language of the people you are seeking to reach, then this tradition would surely need not even apply.

Furthermore, there is no law requiring that Hebrew Scriptures be translated into Greek.

INDEED, it is better to learn the ORIGINAL language, rather than pretend that a translation is better.

So yes, the Spirit inspired the NT Scriptures in Greek...but that doesn't mean the Spirit thinks that using the Scriptures straight from Hebrew IN HEBREW is inferior.

After all, Greek was THE WIDESPREAD language of the day. So of course it's practical to translate Scriptures into Greek (when living in the 1st century), because that's the best way to get the word out! But that doesn't mean Greek trumps Hebrew.

Of course it's better to learn the Hebrew Scriptures directly, rather than pretending that Greek translations are superior.

And, the NT REQUIRES that we apply these HEBREW Scriptures to us so that they correct and train our behavior (2 Ti. 3:16).

Therefore, it VERY HELPFUL (and urgently encouraged!) to have people learn Hebrew and use Hebrew directly...to better appreciate the meaning contained in the Spirit-inspired Tanach which still applies to us, according to Jesus, the apostles, and the Epistles.

Now, you wrote: "in your view, has the old covenant passed away since the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews?"

My response: In Moses' view, it has not yet passed away, because Moses' prophecy (Dt. 30:1-8) is not even fulfilled yet!

In Jesus' view, heaven and earth could more easily pass away before a single word from Torah could cease to be in force (Mt. 5:18).

The Abrahamic Covenant land-promise (Dt. 6:10) is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to all Torah (Dt. 6:25). This has NOT yet happened. So of course the Old Covenant is not passed away.

We have no good reason to suppose it has already passed away.

We have the reasons I've already stated (and more!) to believe it has NOT yet passed away.


best....
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

sure, full torah obedience... but how does the spirit lead us to do that?

if one takes a ritual approach, one can do only a small portion of torah.

if one takes the love your neighbor approach, all of torah can be currently obeyed.

Hello,

You wrote: "if one takes the love your neighbor approach, all of torah can be currently obeyed."

My response: No. If one takes the "love your neighbor" approached, then all of PRESENTLY-OBSERVABLE Torah can (and should) be obeyed.

You can love your neighbor all you want...but you WON'T be able to participate in ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical Torah pertaining to Sukkot (as we will in the future, Zec. 14:16-21).

So let's not pretend that "love your neighbor" REPLACES the Torah.

Rather, "love your neighbor" simply FULFILLS Torah, because when you love your neighbor, you encourage him to rejoice in truth (including rejoicing in Torah), because Torah is truth (Ps. 119:142).

So, "love your neighbor" is NEVER properly opposed to Torah, and it DOES properly encourage maximal Torah-obedience.

So...there's no good reason to distinguish "a ritual approach" from a "love your neighbor" approach.

The loving thing to do is....obey Torah maximally...including any ritual Torah portions presently properly observable.

You wrote: "sure, full torah obedience... but how does the spirit lead us to do that?"

My response: The Spirit uses people, experiences, Scriptures, dreams, visions, truth, reasoning, logic, rationality, etc...lots of ways.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

several ways to look at Mark 7, but I don't think Jesus is saying christians shouldn't eat pork.

first, a note about Jesus saying "All foods are clean". it's not there in some ancient manuscripts. Nestle-Aland include it, so that's good enough for me.

I think Jesus is saying eat whatever is set before you
"whatever goes into the man from outside can’t defile him, because it doesn’t go into his heart".

but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11. he's saying fulfill it by bringing good stuff out of your heart, and through your mouth.

Your statements appear inconsistent.

First, you said: "...but I don't think Jesus is saying christians shouldn't eat pork"

Then, you said: "but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11..."

Seems possibly inconsistent...depending on what, precisely, is in your mind here.

Anyway, Mk. 7 has Jesus ANGRY at people who did NOT obey Torah (Mk. 7:8). So obviously Jesus wants Torah to be OBEYED (per Mk. 7).

It follows that Mk. 7 UPHOLDS Lev. 11.

That's one reason why we should NOT eat in violation of Lev. 11.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Did Jesus spend a lot of time disputing torah? I think he basically said his piece and left it at that.

the key for me is "unprofitable" controversies.

Jesus spent time disputing Torah (Mk. 7; Mt. 23). We should imitate that example (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

The vision Peter had in Acts chapter 10 is not about God changing He's mind about what is lawful and unlawful to eat. Peter answered after seeing the vision: Verse 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. God says in the next verse: 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Now Peter explains what God meant with the vision in verse 28: 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The interpretation of the vision is clearly that Cornelius which was of another nation were accepted of God and that Peter should minister to him even tho it is unlawful to keep company with the (Heathen) nations. Peter understood the vision as stated in verse 28 that he should not call any MAN common or unclean that God had cleansed.

People are very quick to misinterpret this verse into saying we can eat pig now even tho the explanation of the vision is in the very same chapter.

Always remember Jesus Christs words in Matthew 5:17-19, and that God does not change(Malachi 3:6).

Yes! It's about the dude, not the food...

The vision is about people (not food).

Thus, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 to us (1 Pe. 1:15-16).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Yes that are some very Obvious manifestations of the flesh. Do not forget Paul also included Divisions and Heresies. The fruit of the Spirit is also as noted Patience, Faith and Self-control, which is what we need to be Obedient the Gospel which includes repenting of our sins and being Obedient to the law. Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach what so ever He had commanded (Matt 28:20). Which includes Repentance and obedience to the law (Matt 5:17-19).

Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Also the paraphrase commentary put into Matt 15:11 about Jesus making all food clean is not part of the gospel and is simply commentary put into the text only in newer translations. You will not find it in translations older than 50-90 years ago. It was also talking about eating with unwashed hands and not unclean food (Matt 15:2). The Israelites did not eat swine because it has always been forbidden to eat. And Jesus commanded the disciples at that time to not go into the cities of the gentiles but to go to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, which knew the law (Matt 10:5-6). That is also why they were to eat what was set before them because they would not serve unclean meat to Israel.

I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about.

you are correct that Matt 15 doesn't have the part about Jesus making all food clean.
I believe it's there in mark 7.

about eating whatever is set before you, I was thinking of what Paul said in 1 cor 10, "But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you"

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about.

you are correct that Matt 15 doesn't have the part about Jesus making all food clean.
I believe it's there in mark 7.

about eating whatever is set before you, I was thinking of what Paul said in 1 cor 10, "But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you"

In my mind having a discussion about law-keeping as opposed to now we are living by the law of Christ in us by the newness of the Spirit within us - is on par with trying to tell someone that adultery is still a sin while they are living in it. They just don't see the difference.

The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law.

The New Covenant is different then the Old Covenant in that we now live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of love and the law of Christ Himself which is in us.

These will fulfill all the intent of the law and it's all done by the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the law. This is a stumbling stone to law-keepers.

 

[Dan_473]

That's fine, friend. You are free to interpret however you like. If we're going to accept that these verses demonstrate the Messiah saying we are free to eat whatever we like, then we also have to accept the following facts of the text and logical conclusions thereof:

1. That the text never mentions clean and unclean meats (the "food laws" as you call them), but yet we are to believe this is the topic.

(this is how it looks to me, and so for the rest of the post)
the unwashed hands is the setting for Jesus' speech, during which he makes that amazing statement)

2. That the text explicitly frames the discussion (both in how it's set up and in its conclusion) as being about the tradition of ritual handwishing using direct language, but yet we are to believe it's really about the unmentioned "food laws."

I think something interesting here is that the same thinking can be applied to "clean" laws... nothing applied to your skin will make you unclean.

3. That the text provides no evidence that anyone interpreted the words of the Messiah to be about the unmentioned "food laws," but yet we today know it was about those laws.

it takes time for these things to sink in... he had to tell the disciples twice... it was probably years before it sank in.

 

[Dan_473]

4. That the Messiah chastises the Pharisees and Torah-teachers for nullifying the word of God, then turns around and nullifies it Himself, thus doing the same thing he casts them as guilty of doing.

I don't think Jesus nullifies the word of God... he explains what God meant.

5. That if we believe that "What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them" applies to unstated dietary restrictions beyond the stated ritual handwashing, then we are free to consume literally anything: goblets of blood, human flesh, you know name it.

yes, eating those things wouldn't make you unclean, either.

If you're comfortable with these, then feel free to carry on.

yes, I'm very comfortable.

If any of these bother you, then it's time to study the text a bit more and take it before God in prayer. I personally can't accept any of those points and reject this passage being about clean and unclean meats, but prefer the explicitly stated premise of the discussion -- ritual handwashing.

It seems like you might be basing your understanding of this entire encounter on your interpretation of one phrase: "What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them." If so, then we can discuss that.

Blessings, friend.

of course, Jesus does say the phrase twice, so that and the phrase He made all foods clean.
I'm always interested in a quality discussion, and I appreciate your calm tone... looking forward to it!

 

[Dan_473]

The only interpretation from the Torah is to wash yourself and clothes with physical water so the physical uncleanliness upon you is removed (semen , menstrual discharges, contact from carrying and handling dead animals).

The hair/beard issue is in relation to mourning and memorial of the dead like the heathen at that time used to do if you read the text and see what context it is talking about.

that's correct, that moses didn't say anything in torah about other ways of becoming clean.

but, I believe Jesus did through his apostles.

about cutting one's beard, it looks to me like Lev 19 is a collection of commandments unrelated to each other, the hair-cutting commandment doesn't say why not to do it.

 

[miknik5]

HE doesn't nullify the law...HE actually magnifies the Law and makes it honorable based on love and accountability to GOD and to one another.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

In my mind having a discussion about law-keeping as opposed to now we are living by the law of Christ in us by the newness of the Spirit within us - is on par with trying to tell someone that adultery is still a sin while they are living in it. They just don't see the difference.

The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law.

The New Covenant is different then the Old Covenant in that we now live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of love and the law of Christ Himself which is in us.

These will fulfill all the intent of the law and it's all done by the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the law. This is a stumbling stone to law-keepers.

Yes the new covenant differs in that we now live by the law of the Spirit and not of carnal sacrifices when we sin(1 John 2:1-2). However in order to be obedient to faith we still need to keep the commandments as sin is the transgression of the Law(Torah), (1 John 3:4). When we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Now If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

1 john 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now faith requires action (Obedience) to produce fruit. The law of Christ is not any different than what it has always been. Jesus Christ gave us the Law of commandments and judgments and we are to observe them in the new covenant through the law of Christ which is through faith from the heart and not cardinal animal sacrifices when we sin. The law includes does and dont's and instructions on how to serve Him, like for example the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments, which is the Sabbath to remember to keep it Holy and rest on that day. This law requires observance which is something you have to physically do.

Remember the words of Christ in Matthew 5:17-19. We are to observe the Law and teach others to observe it in Christ.

I am not talking about how we receive Christ or if we need him in order to be forgiven so dont get that mixed up. I am talking about what we do when we are practicing the faith.

 

[Dan_473]

You wrote: "Yes, Luke, under the inspiration of the spirit, followed the lxx tradition. Should we follow in Luke's footsteps?"

My response: LITERALLY follow in his footsteps? Of course not! That would require that we only write in GREEK (because that's the method Luke showed us, right?!)

The command to make disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20) implicitly REQUIRES that we learn and use other languages to communicate with the disciples of all nations. We have no reason to suppose Luke would oppose this fact.

So let's not assume that Luke (who chose Greek, and who chose to follow a "kurious" translation tradition for "YHVH") was setting a binding tradition we must feel obligated to imitate in all respects.

No...Luke did not neglect Jer. 16:21 when he wrote the Gospel. Rather, Luke confirms that Jesus is the Messiah. The Messiah confirms that the prophets are still in force. The prophets include Jeremiah. Thus, in this sense, Luke may be viewed as confirming the ongoing force of the prophets...even Jer. 16:21...which confirms that YHVH desires that we know that YHVH's name is YHVH!

blessings...
BibleGuy

sounds like we agree that when Luke followed the "kurious" translation tradition for "YHVH", he wasn't neglecting Jer. 16:21.

so, I think we can see that when going from hebrew to another language, using a word like "lord" doesn't neglect Jer. 16:21.





here's the parallel I see

hebrew to greek, yhvh to kurious
hebrew to english, yhvh to lord

to me, that's following in Luke's footsteps. of course, we've just been talking about Luke so far, all the other nt writers did the same thing.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473!

You wrote: "But it doesn't sound like there's anything preventing jewish people from moving."

My response: No...actually...the Israeli government is presently considerably anti-Yeshua.

So, Jewish followers outside Israel are evidently not permitted to make aliyah.

See: Israeli Court Rules Jews for Jesus Cannot Automatically Be Citizens - NYTimes.com

Things will change (according to the prophets)...but we're not there yet!

blessings...
BibleGuy

I was thinking of jewish people who still have a veil over their hearts...

but yes, it sounds like messianic jews aren't allowed... sad, but not surprising.

 

[Dan_473]

Hey again!

You wrote: "I meant the pattern of the apostles when translating, how they translated."

My response: Ok...sure, continue the tradition of translating YHVH as "kurious" in GREEK, if you live in the 1st century, and if Greek is the widespread language of that time (which it was). But if you don't even speak Greek, or if Greek is not even the widespread language of the people you are seeking to reach, then this tradition would surely need not even apply.

Furthermore, there is no law requiring that Hebrew Scriptures be translated into Greek.

INDEED, it is better to learn the ORIGINAL language, rather than pretend that a translation is better.

So yes, the Spirit inspired the NT Scriptures in Greek...but that doesn't mean the Spirit thinks that using the Scriptures straight from Hebrew IN HEBREW is inferior.

After all, Greek was THE WIDESPREAD language of the day. So of course it's practical to translate Scriptures into Greek (when living in the 1st century), because that's the best way to get the word out! But that doesn't mean Greek trumps Hebrew.

Of course it's better to learn the Hebrew Scriptures directly, rather than pretending that Greek translations are superior.

And, the NT REQUIRES that we apply these HEBREW Scriptures to us so that they correct and train our behavior (2 Ti. 3:16).

Therefore, it VERY HELPFUL (and urgently encouraged!) to have people learn Hebrew and use Hebrew directly...to better appreciate the meaning contained in the Spirit-inspired Tanach which still applies to us, according to Jesus, the apostles, and the Epistles.

I believe we may not be communicating about the ideas of pattern and translation.



here's a different approach.

questioner: why don't you use yhwh when writing things about God?

me: because the nt writers didn't use yhwh when they wrote things about God.

 

[Dan_473]

Now, you wrote: "in your view, has the old covenant passed away since the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews?"

My response: In Moses' view, it has not yet passed away, because Moses' prophecy (Dt. 30:1-8) is not even fulfilled yet!

In Jesus' view, heaven and earth could more easily pass away before a single word from Torah could cease to be in force (Mt. 5:18).

The Abrahamic Covenant land-promise (Dt. 6:10) is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to all Torah (Dt. 6:25). This has NOT yet happened. So of course the Old Covenant is not passed away.

We have no good reason to suppose it has already passed away.

We have the reasons I've already stated (and more!) to believe it has NOT yet passed away.


best....
BibleGuy

do you believe there is a new covenant happening now?

 

[Dan_473]

Hello,

You wrote: "if one takes the love your neighbor approach, all of torah can be currently obeyed."

My response: No. If one takes the "love your neighbor" approached, then all of PRESENTLY-OBSERVABLE Torah can (and should) be obeyed.

You can love your neighbor all you want...but you WON'T be able to participate in ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical Torah pertaining to Sukkot (as we will in the future, Zec. 14:16-21).

So let's not pretend that "love your neighbor" REPLACES the Torah.

Rather, "love your neighbor" simply FULFILLS Torah, because when you love your neighbor, you encourage him to rejoice in truth (including rejoicing in Torah), because Torah is truth (Ps. 119:142).

So, "love your neighbor" is NEVER properly opposed to Torah, and it DOES properly encourage maximal Torah-obedience.

So...there's no good reason to distinguish "a ritual approach" from a "love your neighbor" approach.

The loving thing to do is....obey Torah maximally...including any ritual Torah portions presently properly observable.

You wrote: "sure, full torah obedience... but how does the spirit lead us to do that?"

My response: The Spirit uses people, experiences, Scriptures, dreams, visions, truth, reasoning, logic, rationality, etc...lots of ways.

blessings...
BibleGuy

I think that when God inspired all of torah, what he was saying was, "love your neighbor".

all of the commandments are obeyed when that commandment is obeyed.

why didn't God just say that? My guess is humanity wasn't ready... humanity needed time to learn and grow.


so, full torah obedience... but how does the spirit lead us to do that? I meant does the spirit lead us to observe food laws, or love our neighbor? I believe it's love our neighbor.

 

[Dan_473]

Your statements appear inconsistent.

First, you said: "...but I don't think Jesus is saying christians shouldn't eat pork"

Then, you said: "but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11..."

Seems possibly inconsistent...depending on what, precisely, is in your mind here.

Anyway, Mk. 7 has Jesus ANGRY at people who did NOT obey Torah (Mk. 7:8). So obviously Jesus wants Torah to be OBEYED (per Mk. 7).

It follows that Mk. 7 UPHOLDS Lev. 11.

That's one reason why we should NOT eat in violation of Lev. 11.

best...
BibleGuy

I don't see an inconsistancy. Jesus is saying fulfill lev 11 by bringing good stuff out of your heart, and then out through your mouth.


I think Jesus is angry at people who are ignoring what God meant when he gave torah.

 

[Dan_473]

Jesus spent time disputing Torah (Mk. 7; Mt. 23). We should imitate that example (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

best...
BibleGuy

yes, the key is "a lot" of time disputing torah.

I think it's good to avoid "unprofitable" controversies. our current discussion feels edifying to me, I hope it is for you also!