House of Cornelius and the law

[Dan_473]

In my mind having a discussion about law-keeping as opposed to now we are living by the law of Christ in us by the newness of the Spirit within us - is on par with trying to tell someone that adultery is still a sin while they are living in it. They just don't see the difference.

The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law.

The New Covenant is different then the Old Covenant in that we now live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of love and the law of Christ Himself which is in us.

These will fulfill all the intent of the law and it's all done by the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the law. This is a stumbling stone to law-keepers.

I agree with what you're saying, and I like the phrase about "the intent of the law".

of course, and I want to say this with all gentleness, it's possible for someone to be interested in the law, and have knowledge about Jesus, but not yet have received the Holy Spirit.

in that case, talking about the intent of the law would indeed sound like foolishness to them.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes the new covenant differs in that we now live by the law of the Spirit and not of carnal sacrifices when we sin(1 John 2:1-2). However in order to be obedient to faith we still need to keep the commandments as sin is the transgression of the Law(Torah), (1 John 3:4). When we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Now If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

1 john 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now faith requires action (Obedience) to produce fruit. The law of Christ is not any different than what it has always been. Jesus Christ gave us the Law of commandments and judgments and we are to observe them in the new covenant through the law of Christ which is through faith from the heart and not cardinal animal sacrifices when we sin. The law includes does and dont's and instructions on how to serve Him, like for example the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments, which is the Sabbath to remember to keep it Holy and rest on that day. This law requires observance which is something you have to physically do.

Remember the words of Christ in Matthew 5:17-19. We are to observe the Law and teach others to observe it in Christ.

I am not talking about how we receive Christ or if we need him in order to be forgiven so dont get that mixed up. I am talking about what we do when we are practicing the faith.

what is the the law of the Spirit?

is it the same as the law of Christ?

 

[BibleGuy]

In my mind having a discussion about law-keeping as opposed to now we are living by the law of Christ in us by the newness of the Spirit within us - is on par with trying to tell someone that adultery is still a sin while they are living in it. They just don't see the difference.

The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law.

The New Covenant is different then the Old Covenant in that we now live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of love and the law of Christ Himself which is in us.

These will fulfill all the intent of the law and it's all done by the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the law. This is a stumbling stone to law-keepers.

Hello,

You wrote: "The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law. "

My response: Ah yes!

AND, does God INTEND that His law be obeyed or not?

When God told Israel to obey God, well....was God just joking?

Of course not!

God actually expects people to OBEY Him! (sorry for getting so radical here...

And is it really that bad to seek to be a "law-keeper" ?

Of course not...

That's why this HOLY SPIRIT writes TORAH upon our hearts (Heb. 8; Heb. 10; Jer. 31) so that we will OBEY it.

Why, then, would you oppose faithful obedience to the very Torah which the Spirit testifies is written upon our hearts for obedience?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

I would like to ask some questions to those trying to force the law on people.

Knowing that the Lord does not change, sin is sin, I believe everybody here will agree with that because the bible clearly states it.

1. In the garden when Adam and Eve fell, what did the Lord do about it?

2. Did they die, or did the Lord have mercy on them and provide a covering and also gave them a promise?

3. Does Adam naming the woman Eve because she is the mother of all living show that Adam knew the Lord would show mercy on them, and had faith in His promise?

4. How did the Lord deal with mankind before the flood, and how did he deal with Noah? (We know Noah was a sinner because the bible clearly states that all have sinned)

5. How did the Lord deal with mankind after the flood, and how did he deal with Abraham? (Abraham also is a sinner)

6. When did the Law enter?

7. How is the Lord dealing with us now, in the age of grace? (We are all sinners)

Through out the entire bible sin is sin, God was the same in the beginning and does not change. Clearly we are told how the Lord has dealt with sinners from the beginning of time. Each one is different, yet God does not change and we know that. So God does not change but the way he deals with mankind does as you can read through out the bible.

8. So if the way the Lord dealt with mankind changed over time, why would the way the Lord deals with mankind not change after the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ when he became that perfect eternal sacrifice for sin?

God Bless

 

[simplifiedtruth]

that's correct, that moses didn't say anything in torah about other ways of becoming clean.

but, I believe Jesus did through his apostles.

about cutting one's beard, it looks to me like Lev 19 is a collection of commandments unrelated to each other, the hair-cutting commandment doesn't say why not to do it.

Leviticus 19:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26 [/FONT]Ye shall not eat [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]any thing [/FONT]with the blood:[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] neither shall ye use [/FONT]enchantment[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor [/FONT]observe times.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]27[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall not[/FONT] round the corners of your heads,[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] neither shalt thou[/FONT] mar the corners of thy beard.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]28[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall not make any [/FONT]cuttings in your flesh[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] for the [/FONT]dead[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor print any [/FONT]marks [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]upon you: I [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]am the LORD.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The context here is not to do these things, which the heathen did do at that time. We must also remember that this is an English translation of the text that is separated into different verses. The scriptures were not separated into verses. It looks to me like the hair/beard issue is in relation to the next verse about the dead (As we can see in lev 21). We know that it was normal at that time to pull your beard in relation to mourning:

Leviticus 21: [/FONT]1And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: 2But for his kin, that is near unto him, [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother, [/FONT]3[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled. [/FONT]4[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But [/FONT]he shall not defile himself[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]being a chief man among his people, to[/FONT] profane himself.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]5They shall not make baldness upon their head[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], neither shall they [/FONT]shave off the corner of their beard[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor make any [/FONT]cuttings in their flesh.

Where do you suppose Jesus taught through the Apostles other ways to clean yourself from semen , menstrual discharges and uncleanliness from carrying corpses ?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

what is the the law of the Spirit?

is it the same as the law of Christ?

The law of the Spirit is the same as the law of Christ. The law of the Spirit is the Torah being placed into our hearts, Jesus being our ministering High Priest in real time, atoning for our sins when we fall short and sin when we acknowledge our transgressions and crooked ways.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I don't think Jesus nullifies the word of God... he explains what God meant.






yes, eating those things wouldn't make you unclean, either.







yes, I'm very comfortable.







of course, Jesus does say the phrase twice, so that and the phrase He made all foods clean.
I'm always interested in a quality discussion, and I appreciate your calm tone... looking forward to it!

Don't be to comfortable about willfully transgressing Leviticus 11. Consider Isaiah 66:15-24 which is a future prophecy about the coming judgment of Jesus Christ when He is to return.

Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Leviticus 11:7-8 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Leviticus 11:43-47 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. 44For Iam the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.46This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Shalom.

 

[Dan_473]

Leviticus 19:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26 [/FONT]Ye shall not eat [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]any thing [/FONT]with the blood:[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] neither shall ye use [/FONT]enchantment[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor [/FONT]observe times.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]27[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall not[/FONT] round the corners of your heads,[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] neither shalt thou[/FONT] mar the corners of thy beard.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]28[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall not make any [/FONT]cuttings in your flesh[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] for the [/FONT]dead[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor print any [/FONT]marks [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]upon you: I [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]am the LORD.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The context here is not to do these things, which the heathen did do at that time. We must also remember that this is an English translation of the text that is separated into different verses. The scriptures were not separated into verses. It looks to me like the hair/beard issue is in relation to the next verse about the dead (As we can see in lev 21). We know that it was normal at that time to pull your beard in relation to mourning:

Leviticus 21: [/FONT]1And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: 2But for his kin, that is near unto him, [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother, [/FONT]3[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled. [/FONT]4[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But [/FONT]he shall not defile himself[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]being a chief man among his people, to[/FONT] profane himself.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]5They shall not make baldness upon their head[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], neither shall they [/FONT]shave off the corner of their beard[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], nor make any [/FONT]cuttings in their flesh.

Where do you suppose Jesus taught through the Apostles other ways to clean yourself from semen , menstrual discharges and uncleanliness from carrying corpses ?

yes, the bible was written without verses.
lev 11 to me looks like commandments not really related to each other, each one introduced by "Ye shall not"

Jesus taught through the apostles "He made her clean by washing her with water and the word."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=nirv

 

[Dan_473]

Hello,

You wrote: "The law of love that is in our new hearts which the Holy Spirit poured into us will fulfill all the intent of the law. "

My response: Ah yes!

AND, does God INTEND that His law be obeyed or not?

When God told Israel to obey God, well....was God just joking?

Of course not!

God actually expects people to OBEY Him! (sorry for getting so radical here...

And is it really that bad to seek to be a "law-keeper" ?

Of course not...

That's why this HOLY SPIRIT writes TORAH upon our hearts (Heb. 8; Heb. 10; Jer. 31) so that we will OBEY it.

Why, then, would you oppose faithful obedience to the very Torah which the Spirit testifies is written upon our hearts for obedience?

blessings...
BibleGuy

(not speaking for Grace777x70 here)

interesting interplay between intent and intend, there

to the question
does God INTEND that His law be obeyed or not?

I believe the direct answer would be,
yes, God intends that the intent of the law be obeyed.

 

[Dan_473]

The law of the Spirit is the same as the law of Christ. The law of the Spirit is the Torah being placed into our hearts, Jesus being our ministering High Priest in real time, atoning for our sins when we fall short and sin when we acknowledge our transgressions and crooked ways.

from what I could find, the phrase "law of the spirit" occurs only once, in romans 8.
shortly after that,
"the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I think it's really interesting that the ordinance is fulfilled "in" us, not "by" us.


a few verses earlier, "way of the spirit" occurs in the niv
"we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
when we talk about ritual washings, I believe that's the old way of the written code.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7&version=NIV

 

[Dan_473]

Don't be to comfortable about willfully transgressing Leviticus 11. Consider Isaiah 66:15-24 which is a future prophecy about the coming judgment of Jesus Christ when He is to return.

Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Leviticus 11:7-8 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Leviticus 11:43-47 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. 44For Iam the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.46This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Shalom.

Shalom also with you!

but it's not transgressing Leviticus 11.
it's obeying what torah is really about.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

yes, the bible was written without verses.
lev 11 to me looks like commandments not really related to each other, each one introduced by "Ye shall not"

Jesus taught through the apostles "He made her clean by washing her with water and the word."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=nirv

But as you can see in Leviticus 21:1-5 God is repeating the same commandments of what not to do in direct relation to be defiled for the dead, thus proving this is the correct context and interpretation.

Ephesians 5:25-27 is talking about how Christ has made the church Clean by giving himself up for it. He did it to make it Holy. He want a church that has no stain or wrinkle or any other flaw, that is holy and without blame (provided we be obedient to the faith):

v25 Husbands, love your wives. Love them just as Christ loved the church. He gave himself up for her. 26 He did it to make her holy. He made her clean by washing her with water and the word. 27 He did it to bring her to himself as a brightly shining church. He wants a church that has no stain or wrinkle or any other flaw. He wants a church that is holy and without blame.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Shalom also with you!

but it's not transgressing Leviticus 11.
it's obeying what torah is really about.

Eating swine is in direct transgression of the commandments of the Father in Leviticus 11.
The Torah is all about obeying the Father with gladness of heart. The new covenant is the Father putting He's Spirit inside of us, taking out the heart of stone, making us delight and rejoice in keeping he's commandments and Do them.

Deuteronomy 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[miknik5]

Actually, I believe the whole intent of HIS giving us a New Heart was just THAT.
HIS WORK.
HE did it.
And therefore what HE makes clean is clean...

And not to be confused in thinking that what is now clean is able to do everything it pleases.
Because while everything is permissible...not everything is beneficial...

Every man should do what he has fixed it in his conscience is right...but not to use his freedom as a cover up for sin, or to use his freedom to cause his brother/sister to stumble.

That is why, while Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius who was indeed a gentile, it wasn't because he had to eat all these different meats, it was because he had to start bringing the TRUTH of the GOSPEL to even gentiles...and he, Peter, who was a Jew, had to understand that those whom GOD makes clean ARE clean...

 

[Dan_473]

But as you can see in Leviticus 21:1-5 God is repeating the same commandments of what not to do in direct relation to be defiled for the dead, thus proving this is the correct context and interpretation.

well, lev 21 is talking about priests... but sure, if a person sees it as connected just to mourning the dead, then it would be ok to go ahead and cut your beard.

to me, though, following the letter of the law would mean not cutting your beard.

that's a thing about the law, different people interpret it differently... of course, the Spirit's interpretation is the one to go with...

 

[Dan_473]

Ephesians 5:25-27 is talking about how Christ has made the church Clean by giving himself up for it. He did it to make it Holy. He want a church that has no stain or wrinkle or any other flaw, that is holy and without blame (provided we be obedient to the faith):

v25 Husbands, love your wives. Love them just as Christ loved the church. He gave himself up for her. 26 He did it to make her holy. He made her clean by washing her with water and the word. 27 He did it to bring her to himself as a brightly shining church. He wants a church that has no stain or wrinkle or any other flaw. He wants a church that is holy and without blame.

yes, Jesus has made the church Clean. the church is people who believe in Jesus. People who believe in Jesus are Clean.

 

[Dan_473]

Eating swine is in direct transgression of the commandments of the Father in Leviticus 11.
The Torah is all about obeying the Father with gladness of heart. The new covenant is the Father putting He's Spirit inside of us, taking out the heart of stone, making us delight and rejoice in keeping he's commandments and Do them.

Deuteronomy 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

no, having bad stuff come out of your heart is transgressing lev 11, and all of torah.

so yes, let us all obey the Father with gladness of heart.

 

[Dan_473]

...those whom GOD makes clean ARE clean...

say Amen, somebody!


(a common saying in "call and response" churches)

 

[BibleGuy]

(not speaking for Grace777x70 here)

interesting interplay between intent and intend, there

to the question
does God INTEND that His law be obeyed or not?

I believe the direct answer would be,
yes, God intends that the intent of the law be obeyed.

Hi Dan,

Let's clarify...

Are you claiming God never actually expected people to obey Torah?

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Actually, I believe the whole intent of HIS giving us a New Heart was just THAT.
HIS WORK.
HE did it.
And therefore what HE makes clean is clean...

And not to be confused in thinking that what is now clean is able to do everything it pleases.
Because while everything is permissible...not everything is beneficial...

Every man should do what he has fixed it in his conscience is right...but not to use his freedom as a cover up for sin, or to use his freedom to cause his brother/sister to stumble.

That is why, while Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius who was indeed a gentile, it wasn't because he had to eat all these different meats, it was because he had to start bringing the TRUTH of the GOSPEL to even gentiles...and he, Peter, who was a Jew, had to understand that those whom GOD makes clean ARE clean...

Hi there!

You wrote: "...but not to use his freedom as a cover up for in..."

My response: AND, sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, we should not violate Torah.

Thus, we should obey Torah!

Thus, we should not use "freedom" as a cover up for Torah-disobedience!

blessings...
BibleGuy