What Paul taught other than romans 8:1 lol
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amen its full commitment and there is much work to be done in a fading world, while we exist here and now Knowing His goodness to us, we are servants for the good of the Kingdom, servants to our bretheren, workers in the fields and called to be good and faithful servants who are promised rewards beyond comprehension. good post. There is rest in working for the Lord, the harder a person works for Him in His things, the more Grace sets us free and fills us with rest and strength to press forward, all because of the Grace offered through the Man on the cross that commited fully to save us, and demands full commitment from those He died to save.
Prayer for obedience, prayer for a calling and strength to accomplish the great many works we are called to DO with all effort and all of our heart, soul, mind, body. Prayer for righteousness, prayer for others forgiveness, Prayer that God will send us into the fields of harvest to somehow plant a seed or speak a word, or lift a fallen brother, lend a helping hand, give to the poor, Be encouragement to the sorrowful....and many more things. Prayer is essential always pray. and always act upon the answers we receive.
i think what you're trying to say is more or less wrapped up in this --
right? more through Paul
i think there is a difference in 'conviction' and 'guilt' -- maybe that's what differs in 'godly sorrow' and 'the sorrow of the world' -- just chasing down the right words to express an idea here.
that because we have died to what once bound us, we do not suffer condemnation ((oops! Romans 8:1!)), but because we are made alive to God through Christ, and from love, seek to serve and honor Him, the spirit in us is troubled by our failure, wanting to do instead the things that please God.
this is how ((in re: 1 John 3)) a believer cannot continue in sin, because we are born of God, and His seed dwells in us. the Spirit in us that animates us wars against this within us - we hate what we do - so that we simply cannot go on living in it. we despise it; our own behavior is often abominable to us. this is how Paul ((in re: Romans 7)) says that it is no longer him who does these things, but sin dwelling in him. as 'gnostic' as that may sound, there is a bit of dualism in the Christian experience. we experientially live out a life in which we are dead to the desire of the flesh, and mollify it, it having been crucified and also dead to us - yet it continues, until that time that these bodies are redeemed.
there is a dualism, but it doesn't extend so far that we are separate from our bodies, or that the body is utterly inconsequential. we are affected by it, and affect it, whether it has consequences for the promise we have in Christ or not, & part of that promise is the eventual redemption of it.
at the same time, speaking of dualism, we have that Christ Himself says
contextually, He is explaining to the disciples the teaching that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood -- that He is speaking in spirit, not of literal cannibalism. but there is a more profound truth here -- it is by grace, by spirit that we are made alive - it is the desire of the flesh that is put to death. the same is found here from Paul -
amen, the flesh profits nothing -- but it is not altogether useless, and it will one day be redeemed!
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
(2 Corinthians 7:10)
but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
(2 Corinthians 7:10)
right? more through Paul
i think there is a difference in 'conviction' and 'guilt' -- maybe that's what differs in 'godly sorrow' and 'the sorrow of the world' -- just chasing down the right words to express an idea here.
that because we have died to what once bound us, we do not suffer condemnation ((oops! Romans 8:1!)), but because we are made alive to God through Christ, and from love, seek to serve and honor Him, the spirit in us is troubled by our failure, wanting to do instead the things that please God.
this is how ((in re: 1 John 3)) a believer cannot continue in sin, because we are born of God, and His seed dwells in us. the Spirit in us that animates us wars against this within us - we hate what we do - so that we simply cannot go on living in it. we despise it; our own behavior is often abominable to us. this is how Paul ((in re: Romans 7)) says that it is no longer him who does these things, but sin dwelling in him. as 'gnostic' as that may sound, there is a bit of dualism in the Christian experience. we experientially live out a life in which we are dead to the desire of the flesh, and mollify it, it having been crucified and also dead to us - yet it continues, until that time that these bodies are redeemed.
there is a dualism, but it doesn't extend so far that we are separate from our bodies, or that the body is utterly inconsequential. we are affected by it, and affect it, whether it has consequences for the promise we have in Christ or not, & part of that promise is the eventual redemption of it.
at the same time, speaking of dualism, we have that Christ Himself says
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.
(John 6:63)
(John 6:63)
contextually, He is explaining to the disciples the teaching that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood -- that He is speaking in spirit, not of literal cannibalism. but there is a more profound truth here -- it is by grace, by spirit that we are made alive - it is the desire of the flesh that is put to death. the same is found here from Paul -
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:10)
we live by the Spirit, in the spirit, not in the flesh. this dichotomy remains, but it isn't the complete, dissonant separation, where what we do in the flesh is meaningless. we obey from the heart; our circumcision is of the heart - and the working of the flesh is not what saves, and we are no longer condemned, as we remain in Him walking in spirit. but our proper reply is to 'beat our bodies and make them our slaves' ((also Paul, 1 Corinthians 9:27)) bringing it into subjection to the Spirit in us, because offering our bodies as a living sacrifice ((Romans 12:1)) is our act of spiritual worship. the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:10)
amen, the flesh profits nothing -- but it is not altogether useless, and it will one day be redeemed!
No apologies necessary, freely post I love reading thoughts and ideas from others especially deep ones such as this. I do not always accept things, but always am interested in reading them. thanks for adding this.
I have always maintained that romans 7:9-25 is vastly misunderstood by many, and maybe the most hard to understand given its wording especially in the kjv. to me and I do believe this, this is pauls description of a man under law, and His struggle with sin under law. in v 9, I believe Him to be speaking as adam representing man. adam was alive before the law came " the law concerning the tree of knowledge." when that commandment came, sin sprang to life and adam died. v 10" I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life, actually brought death" Gods command to adam, was meant to guard and keep His life, in v 11 he says "sin ceizing the opportunity afforded it by the commandment" meaning to me, the commandment said " if you eat, you will die" that again in my belief is the opportunity afforded by the commandment to bring death by deceiving mankind. this to me is clear ( whether I'm right or wrong here) so when God said if you eat, you will surely die. sin took the opportunity to deceive man into eating, therefore killing Man by Gods first commandment.
then in v13 he says that in this death, man learns what sin is through the law, that it is utterly sinful. that is why I take from v 14-24 to be pauls description of a man trying to be righteous under the law. in v 25 the answer of deliverance Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ my Lord ! in this thinking romans 8 makes so much sense to me ( again, just my own take here) and romans 8 becomes those who are living by the spirit. so in 7 I see Him showing what it is like to try to be right under the law without Jesus, without the spirit He gives, and then romans 8 is showing us the difference. I don't know if I made sense here, but it makes sense in my head lol just offering that thought for consideration.
and don't take this to disagree with what you said here, really great stuff in your comment I agree with much of it and like the way you put that in your wording. I do have a differing view than most on romans 7 9-25 though. I know paul often rambles and goes back and forth to make astounding and amazing points. which is why I see such danger in plucking a verse or 2 from especially His writings as many do. Paul was revealing amazing truth in His revelations of the mystery of atonement and the power God gave us in the death and resurrection of Christ. and it was a lot of info to compress in small places.
good stuff thanks for that
yeah but see how you stopped where you did? if you read a little further infact I believe the next verses where you stopped lol say (not word for word " therefore , we have an obligation, but NOT to the sinful nature, for if you live according to the sinful nature you will die. but if by the spirit, you put to death the MISDEEDS of the BODY you will live."
that's my main issue with the grace alone the way its taught and avoids the things we are obligated to do. when in the verses he says "the spirit who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also Give life to your mortal bodies" He is saying He will make you alive in the spirit NOW, so that you are able to put the misdeeds of the body to death. this isn't Him saying someday , but we die through Jesus to sin NOW in this life and are made clean and new NOW in this life. look back to romans 6 and realize this chapter and 8 go together. gotta always read all the verses especially with paul....
people all have to come to their own understanding. But the things paul is saying is giving us all we need to die and be reborn as of now in this life, no longer a slave to sin, but a servant of God, serving and living in righteousness. it isn't only a future promise. to follow the spirit of be controlled by the spirit is to obey the spirit of holiness living in us Now, that results in righteousness now an upright Godly life now in this time this age. that's how we are set free from punishment of sin. Jesus dies not just to take punishment, but to remove, or "circumsize" our hearts. meaning removing sin from within us, or in other words " condemning" the sin in us so that we are no longer bound to be sinners, but filled with the free gift of righteousness now and here, presently able to serve God in spirit and truth.
I would disagree. I believe that paul is telling us the process of the justification. and it is infact all by Grace. our repentance a gift of Grace, our obedience a gift of Grace. no work a Christian can do is apart from Christ is the thing. so to say a Christian is trying to earn salvation or something is silly. obeying God is a gift through Grace, we received obedience the moment we received Grace. Now we have no excuse to live the ways we used to live because we have the spirit wich is our full supply to do right in the eyes of God. were no longer incapable because of Grace. were no longer free to sin, because of Grace, rather, we are free from the control of sin, because of Grace. that's the freedom we read of, freedom from the control and rule of sin in us. it is when a person who knows its by Grace, accepts their responsibility TO repent, obey ect....that's is when the freedom exhibits itself. to deny responsibility, is just holding us back from The Life we are free to live in Christ Jesus. In Him , Grace is only a part of Who Jesus is and what He offers. and Grace is more than we know. it is forgiveness, obedience, salvation, strength, COMMISSION, and every ability we ever need is given by the same forgiving Grace. we are able to Live as we are supposed to. that is why obedience needs to be spoken along with Grace. its freedom from sin, which is freedom from sins wages. which are death and wrath.
Yet the Corinthian believers were living worldly, carnal lives and the Holy Spirit through Paul told them that they were washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit. Their worldly living did not undo the salvation they received through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
He goes on to warn them how they build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ will determine their rewards. The believer's work that abides the fire(the word of God) will receive a reward. The believer whose work is burned(did not line up with the word of God) will suffer loss but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
The word of God commands the believer to go onto good works. The believer who does not go onto good works but walks worldly, will suffer loss at the JSOC. That believer grieves the Holy Spirit of God whereby he is sealed unto the day of redemption.
The word of God commands the believer to go onto good works. The believer who does not go onto good works but walks worldly, will suffer loss at the JSOC. That believer grieves the Holy Spirit of God whereby he is sealed unto the day of redemption.
Amen..not to mention the other crazy stuff that Paul said they were doing like going to the temple prostitutes for sex, getting drunk at Communion from drinking wine...etc.
My goodness...the self-proclaimed heretic hunters of the internet would have a field day with that. Not to mention the threads that would be started here about all these "false Christians" sinning like this.
The answer is always the same - preach Christ to them so that we can grow up in Him through grace and knowledge.
Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
My goodness...the self-proclaimed heretic hunters of the internet would have a field day with that. Not to mention the threads that would be started here about all these "false Christians" sinning like this.
The answer is always the same - preach Christ to them so that we can grow up in Him through grace and knowledge.
Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
actually, did paul say that? and isn't 1 Corinthians in part sent to expel the immoral brother that had his fathers wife? post some scriptures saying what you are saying that paul ever wrote saying our salvation cant be undone, I'm not aware of Him ever making that statement. without of course, speculating into obscure things. but I'm open always to verses saying "salvation" cant be lost. which would seem to contradict the several times He says ...those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God" after giving His lists of sinful behavior. that to me, in my own view, says pretty clearly that behavior can absolutely disqualify those who live after the sinful nature by acting in it. for example
galatians 5:13-21 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God"
notice I warn you as I did before ? then take a look at romans 8, ephesians 4:17- 5:15. same things even using more strong words. because of these things the wrath of God comes on the disobedient, have nothing to do with these things..ect..
pauls words, and in truth they are far more than just these couple examples that would seem to indicate pretty clearly, that how we live can absolutely disqualify our inheritance. But I'm open to the ones that say we cant lose that inheritance...feel free to post them.
exactly. lol why do you think he wrote the letter warning and correcting them, telling them to fix the issue? because he heard of the sinful behaviors they were acting in. if it didn't matter, seems a man such as paul would have had better things to do than boast in His letter and make a fool of Himself, as he himself says in the letter ( I am out of my mind to speak this way, yet you Corinthians drove me to it.) why do you suppose 1st Corinthians was sent? I have no problem with people claiming they rest upon Jesus, that's the place to rest. the issue I have is when obeying Jesus, becomes "works of the flesh" and "falling from Grace" and somehow becomes don't do that. as certain famous pastors definitely teach. I have issues with omitting the sermon on the mount, which certain famous pastors of the gospel of grace claim. omitting everything like confession, repentance ect.... that's my issue. I think encouraging one another is great, calling for righteousness by faith is great, that's how it comes amen. I'm saying if a person is claiming these things, they are now obligated to act in them, clearly. repentance required, confession, required, following Gods commandments, rewuired by those who are claimuing His name and righteousness. grace isn't something that pays the price and tells us " now you go on living as you will" naw, Grace is far more than a forgiven sinner with no obligation or responsibility.
preachers of the gospel of Grace as they teach it these days, omit truth, that is what makes it false. I'm sorry we disagree, but truth is truth. There is a trumpet calling the righteous to be righteous, those who claim Jesus to follow Him, those who Love God to Put their full heart, mind, soul and strength into Him. this includes following His word. and hell is a real place, I understand folks don't like to hear it. but Gods word is pretty clear really. Not my view, Just written in the word of God
1 Corinthians was written to address the worldly, carnal living of the believers at Corinth. Yet, these carnal, worldly believers were still considered justified. The fornicator in chapter 5 may or may not have been a believer. Actually, the wording in verse 11 is "not keep company, if any man is called a brother." Again, refer to post #136.
He definitely was a believer, in 2 Corinthians paul says to forgive Him and show Him Love. what do you make of these scriptures since you didn't post the others
Ephesians 5 :3-7 " But among you there must not be even a HINT of sexual immorality, or of ANY KIND of impurity or of Greed because these are improper for Gods HOLY people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking wich are out of place. FOR THIS YOU CAN BE SURE : No immoral, impure or GREEDY person- such a man is an idolater, has ANY INHERITANCE in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for BECAUSE OF SUCH THINGS THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. therefore do not be partners with them."
would you say that's pretty clear? being written to the Church at Ephesus? pretty strong language from the apostle paul who is known for only teaching grace wouldn't you admit? also very clear in His language I would personally observe there. but maybe those verses aren't meant for Christians? or maybe he isn't referring to what people do somehow? or maybe inheriting Gods Kingdom has nothing to do with salvation? I'm not sure, enlighten me here. tell me how this is unclear and I'm just misinterpreting these things and paul was really saying "don't worry about your actions, your all saved, spread that as the gospel" I must be just trying to cause trouble....funny I figured people might think it important but that's just my own view of it I guess
Ephesians 5 :3-7 " But among you there must not be even a HINT of sexual immorality, or of ANY KIND of impurity or of Greed because these are improper for Gods HOLY people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking wich are out of place. FOR THIS YOU CAN BE SURE : No immoral, impure or GREEDY person- such a man is an idolater, has ANY INHERITANCE in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for BECAUSE OF SUCH THINGS THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. therefore do not be partners with them."
would you say that's pretty clear? being written to the Church at Ephesus? pretty strong language from the apostle paul who is known for only teaching grace wouldn't you admit? also very clear in His language I would personally observe there. but maybe those verses aren't meant for Christians? or maybe he isn't referring to what people do somehow? or maybe inheriting Gods Kingdom has nothing to do with salvation? I'm not sure, enlighten me here. tell me how this is unclear and I'm just misinterpreting these things and paul was really saying "don't worry about your actions, your all saved, spread that as the gospel" I must be just trying to cause trouble....funny I figured people might think it important but that's just my own view of it I guess
People can read posts like this and say - "see they are saying it's ok to go and sin all you want". ( of course no one is saying that at all and never is Paul ) Paul himself said all these things in his letters and he always talked about the identity of the people in Christ before he corrected their behavior.
Paul had to defend himself in 4x times alone in the book of Romans because he was being accused by fellow believers of saying that it is ok to go and sin because of the radical grace he was teaching.
When you preach the gospel and no one says to you " What?..are you saying we can jus go and sin now all we want? " If we do not get that kind of a response then we have not preached the gospel of the grace of Christ as Paul did.
The book of Ephesians shows us the Christian life. First Paul talks about our identity in Christ and we are seated with Him...resting as He is. 2nd part is talking about how this life from Christ should look like when it is being manifested in our lives. It is our walking in Him.
The last part of Ephesians is talking about how we stand with the armor of God on us..praying..which shows complete dependence on Christ in us for our standing against the storms of life and all the fiery darts of the enemy.
How we stand is determined how well we walk and how well we walk is determined how well we understand our identity in Christ which is us sitting with Christ. It all starts with the sitting in Christ and resting in His completed work first.
We can try to "force" people to walk right before they know how to sit and rest in Christ first. This does not work. Resting in Christ comes first then we walk and then we stand in Him.
Paul had to defend himself in 4x times alone in the book of Romans because he was being accused by fellow believers of saying that it is ok to go and sin because of the radical grace he was teaching.
When you preach the gospel and no one says to you " What?..are you saying we can jus go and sin now all we want? " If we do not get that kind of a response then we have not preached the gospel of the grace of Christ as Paul did.
The book of Ephesians shows us the Christian life. First Paul talks about our identity in Christ and we are seated with Him...resting as He is. 2nd part is talking about how this life from Christ should look like when it is being manifested in our lives. It is our walking in Him.
The last part of Ephesians is talking about how we stand with the armor of God on us..praying..which shows complete dependence on Christ in us for our standing against the storms of life and all the fiery darts of the enemy.
How we stand is determined how well we walk and how well we walk is determined how well we understand our identity in Christ which is us sitting with Christ. It all starts with the sitting in Christ and resting in His completed work first.
We can try to "force" people to walk right before they know how to sit and rest in Christ first. This does not work. Resting in Christ comes first then we walk and then we stand in Him.