Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

[BibleGuy]

Faithless works of the law???

Never heard of that.

Is that like faithless works of the flesh?

Your interpretations of what you think Paul has said is way out of whack.

How do you interpret being dead to your work at Torah so you can be alive to God?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This says that the way to be free from sin is to not be under the works of Torah. Same as Romans 9:31-32.

It doesn't say anything about "faithless" works of Torah.

Galatians 3:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


I guess you don't read Galatians. Its ok if you don't. You still need to go over Romans.

Hello Grandpa,

Again, you have REFUSED to answer the question which disconfirms your position.

I trusted you would answer...but instead...you ignored the question...you claim my interpretation is "out of whack" (but you give no evidence)...and you refuse to engage the Scriptures I've already brought forth to support my position (and which disconfirm your position)...and then you move on to other Scriptures!

Yikes! This is NOT how diligent truth-seekers seek truth!

You wrote: "Is that like faithless works of the flesh?"

My response: Well...I'm not sure I'd put it that way, because the flesh can NOT obey Torah (Rom. 8:7), whereas the Spirit (by contrast) leads us to obey Torah (Rom. 8:9).

So again, Rom. 8:7,9 (as I've just shown) confirms my position, and disconfirms yours...will you address this? Or will you ignore it (like the other issues you continue to ignore) ?

And again, you quote Paul (Gal. 3:11), where Paul equates faith (Gr. "pistis) with faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was directly quoting). AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which we should be living? TORAH! See "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof the "emunah" is Torah-OBEDIENT (not Torah-DISOBEDIENT)!

Will you address this issue? Or ignore it like the many others you are ignoring?

And you again quote Paul: "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

My response: But what is SIN? Torah-disobedience! (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

And Paul says we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, Paul says we should NOT disobey Torah.

Thus, Paul says we should OBEY Torah.

So again, I'll set forth the argument you REFUSE to answer (and which comes STRAIGHT out of Paul's letter to the Romans):

1. Paul said we should not sin (Rom. 6:15)
2. Paul said sin in Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul said we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said we should obey Torah (from 3).

SO AGAIN! I'll ask you! Do reject 1? 2? 3? or 4?

Please answer, and learn from the answer!

I now hang you upon the horns of this dilemma.

Reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, and you have rejected Scripture (or its logical consequences).
Accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then you must agree that we should obey Torah!

Which do you choose?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

What about all the things in the Torah that where shadows or types of Jesus, (things that pointed to the coming Messiah).
Do we continue to Sacrifice animals in the sanctuary when Jesus has become our blood offering?

Hello TMS,

Thanks for writing!

The things which are shadows ARE (present tense) shadows (Col. 2:17), thereby confirming that they continue to PRESENTLY function as shadows even though they, of course, point to even greater realities in the Messiah.

AND, Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices! (Mal. 3:1-4)

Again, the prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Is. 66. Dt. 30).

Why is Levitical Torah not 100% obeyed right now? Because (as Moses explained, Dt. 30:14), we can not obey Torah 100% again until AFTER we return to the land.

So, until this present diaspora ends, we will still be scattered throughout the earth in a state in which we can only obey select portions of Torah.

Which portions should we obey?

As much as you can! (any other answer is arbitrary or unjustified)

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I don't think anyone believes that "righteousness comes by Works" or by obeying the law you can work your way, or earn a place, in heaven. If you believe this you sure need to reread and understand the Bible.

But Can the LAW and GRACE exist together?
If we believe in Grace through faith does that mean the law is gone, void, useless, and we have no need to consider it anymore?
If i believe in the law does that mean i'm working my way to heaven?

Can i believe that righteousness comes by faith in the death or blood of my perfect saviour (Grace), and because i love Him i want to obey the law like Him and allow Him to live His righteousness in me? If i fail i have an advocate, Praise God.

Hi TMS,

Lots of good things to think about!

You wrote: "I don't think anyone believes that "righteousness comes by Works" or by obeying the law you can work your way, or earn a place, in heaven. If you believe this you sure need to reread and understand the Bible."

My response: What does John say (1 Jn. 3:10)? John says we DO (Gr. "poieo") righteousness, or else we are NOT of God.

Ouch! That's pretty straightforward.

Sure, righteousness is also by faith (Rom 4:3). But notice, Abraham ALSO obeyed the Torah which was available to him (Ge. 26:5), even commanding his family to do likewise (Ge. 18:19).

And does John think we should obey God's commands? YES! (1 Jn. 5:3). The commands, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3). Paul likewise applies these commands to us (1 Cor. 7:19).

Of course we do not "work" our way into heaven...

BUT, Jesus said our place in the coming kingdom DEPENDS upon our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (Mt. 5:19).

AND, those who oppose Torah (exemplifying Torah-lessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

You wrote: "But Can the LAW and GRACE exist together?"

My response: Yes! It has always been this way...Moses perceived God's grace (Heb. "chen", Ex. 33:13), and what was Moses' response to this grace? Moses response was to seek to know God and God's ways.

And where did God's ways come to be found? The written Torah of Moses! (1 Ki. 2:3). So there you have it: Grace AND Law, hand-in-hand.

You wrote: "If we believe in Grace through faith does that mean the law is gone, void, useless, and we have no need to consider it anymore?"

My response: No. I just showed you that grace and law go hand-in-hand. AND, Paul says we live by faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) which is a quote of the term "faithfulness" (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of "emunah"? TORAH! (See Ps. 119:30,86,138).

AGAIN, we are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8)...but then Paul says we are no longer excluded (Eph. 2:12). Thus, we are INCLUDED in the COVENANTS (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants). ALL of these covenants have associated Torah.

Thus, we should grow in faithful obedience to all of the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate (per Eph. 2:12).

You wrote: "Can i believe that righteousness comes by faith in the death or blood of my perfect saviour (Grace), and because i love Him i want to obey the law like Him and allow Him to live His righteousness in me? If i fail i have an advocate, Praise God."

My response: Yes my friend....perfect!

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[TMS]

Hello TMS,

Thanks for writing!

The things which are shadows ARE (present tense) shadows (Col. 2:17), thereby confirming that they continue to PRESENTLY function as shadows even though they, of course, point to even greater realities in the Messiah.

AND, Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices! (Mal. 3:1-4)

Again, the prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Is. 66. Dt. 30).

Why is Levitical Torah not 100% obeyed right now? Because (as Moses explained, Dt. 30:14), we can not obey Torah 100% again until AFTER we return to the land.

So, until this present diaspora ends, we will still be scattered throughout the earth in a state in which we can only obey select portions of Torah.

Which portions should we obey?

As much as you can! (any other answer is arbitrary or unjustified)

blessings...
BibleGuy

We agree about grace and the law going hand in hand but your idea of the law includes the whole Torah and i believe it is the principles of love and what ever God has given for our safety and well being. That can mean it is hard to define what to obey and what not to obey but it becomes simple when you study the life and teachings of Jesus.

Hebrews 9 and 10 tells me that the blood of bulls and goats mean nothing and do nothing for our salvation.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The sacrifices had their purpose and it was very important to help people understand what was to happen in Heaven, but when the heavenly sacrifice has come what use is it to keep killing animals, when they do nothing to save us?

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

Yes- our obedience does not earn grace, but God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him.

 

[BibleGuy]

We agree about grace and the law going hand in hand but your idea of the law includes the whole Torah and i believe it is the principles of love and what ever God has given for our safety and well being. That can mean it is hard to define what to obey and what not to obey but it becomes simple when you study the life and teachings of Jesus.

Hebrews 9 and 10 tells me that the blood of bulls and goats mean nothing and do nothing for our salvation.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The sacrifices had their purpose and it was very important to help people understand what was to happen in Heaven, but when the heavenly sacrifice has come what use is it to keep killing animals, when they do nothing to save us?

You wrote: "...when the heavenly sacrifice has come what use is it to keep killing animals, when they do nothing to save us?"

My response: The sacrifices never "saved" us!

Rather, they point us to the need for a permanent once-for-all sacrifice to fully take away sin.

So, sacrifices NEVER saved us...but they were commanded to be done, so they were done.
And, sacrifices STILL don't save us, but they are STILL commanded to be done, so they must still be done.

WHEN will sacrifices again be done?

Answer: In the future, as the prophets declare.

Remember the passages I showed you?

Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices! (Mal. 3:1-4)

Again, the prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Is. 66. Dt. 30).

===========>>> WHY would you oppose Levitical sacrifices, when Mal. 3:1-4 shows that Jesus comes to RESTORE them?

WHY would you suppose Levitical sacrifices are no longer needed, when the prophets GUARANTEE they will be restored to 100% full future function again?

Remember, you just confessed that Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:16). What Torah? The Torah of Moses! (and this requires Levitical sacrifices...)

So why would you oppose obedience to Levitical Torah...when you have confessed that this Torah should be written upon our hearts?

Torah upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14), not opposed or ignored or disobeyed.

Right?

blessings...
BibelGuy

 

[gb9]

You wrote: "...when the heavenly sacrifice has come what use is it to keep killing animals, when they do nothing to save us?"

My response: The sacrifices never "saved" us!

Rather, they point us to the need for a permanent once-for-all sacrifice to fully take away sin.

So, sacrifices NEVER saved us...but they were commanded to be done, so they were done.
And, sacrifices STILL don't save us, but they are STILL commanded to be done, so they must still be done.

WHEN will sacrifices again be done?

Answer: In the future, as the prophets declare.

Remember the passages I showed you?

Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices! (Mal. 3:1-4)

Again, the prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Is. 66. Dt. 30).

===========>>> WHY would you oppose Levitical sacrifices, when Mal. 3:1-4 shows that Jesus comes to RESTORE them?

WHY would you suppose Levitical sacrifices are no longer needed, when the prophets GUARANTEE they will be restored to 100% full future function again?

Remember, you just confessed that Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:16). What Torah? The Torah of Moses! (and this requires Levitical sacrifices...)

So why would you oppose obedience to Levitical Torah...when you have confessed that this Torah should be written upon our hearts?

Torah upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14), not opposed or ignored or disobeyed.

Right?

blessings...
BibelGuy

Hebrew roots teaching at it's finest. the book of Hebrews spells out the separating of the old and new covenants so clearly, it is amazing that folks can't see it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hebrew roots teaching at it's finest. the book of Hebrews spells out the separating of the old and new covenants so clearly, it is amazing that folks can't see it.

I agree...here is a website that completely refutes the law-keepers - Hebrew Roots movement. The gospel of the grace of Christ has set us free from the law to walk in newness of life in Him now. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of love will fulfill all the requirements of the intent of the law.

Here is the website. " How I became aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement "

https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/how-i-became-aware-of-the-hebrew-roots-movement/


If we go back to the law-keeping we are committing spiritual adultery on the Lord Jesus as we are joined to Him now and we have died to the law - as Romans 7:1-6 clearly shows.

 

[BibleGuy]

Hebrew roots teaching at it's finest. the book of Hebrews spells out the separating of the old and new covenants so clearly, it is amazing that folks can't see it.

And here is the verse in HEBREWS which you have evidently not yet seen:

Heb. 8:13.

What does it say? That the Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, thereby confirming that the Old Covenant had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Can you answer this objection to your position?

Moreover, why do you not engage the passages from the Prophets which I've cited, which likewise disconfirm your position?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And here is the verse in HEBREWS which you have evidently not yet seen:

Heb. 8:13.

What does it say? That the Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, thereby confirming that the Old Covenant had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Can you answer this objection to your position?

Moreover, why do you not engage the passages from the Prophets which I've cited, which likewise disconfirm your position?

best...
BibleGuy

You have an issue.

Paul said the law was a tutor until the one who would fulfill (Christ) came to fulfill it. (gal 3) which would include animal sacrifice.

Why would God go back to a law which was fulfilled in Christ?

Paul also said if you go back to it, your indebted to keep it all (not slip in one area) so basically your doomed, Because no man can keep the law perfectly.

 

[BibleGuy]

I agree...here is a website that completely refutes the law-keepers - Hebrew Roots movement. The gospel of the grace of Christ has set us free from the law to walk in newness of life in Him now. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of love will fulfill all the requirements of the intent of the law.

Here is the website. " How I became aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement "

https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/how-i-became-aware-of-the-hebrew-roots-movement/


If we go back to the law-keeping we are committing spiritual adultery on the Lord Jesus as we are joined to Him now and we have died to the law - as Romans 7:1-6 clearly shows.


View attachment 152078

Hi there Grace77x70!

Why do you continue to refer us to JGIG, rather than simply learn from the following argument that you CONTINUE to repeatedly refuse to answer?

Remember? The dilemma you won't address?

I'll bring it forth to you (yet again...sigh...)

1. Paul taught that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey Torah (from 3).

If you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences).

If you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you should OBEY TORAH!

Which do you choose?

(please answer....rather than posting pictures of t-shirts and citing JGIG, yet again....)

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

You have an issue.

Paul said the law was a tutor until the one who would fulfill (Christ) came to fulfill it. (gal 3) which would include animal sacrifice.

Why would God go back to a law which was fulfilled in Christ?

Paul also said if you go back to it, your indebted to keep it all (not slip in one area) so basically your doomed, Because no man can keep the law perfectly.

Hello eternally-gratefull,

You wrote: "Paul said the law was a tutor until the one who would fulfill (Christ) came to fulfill it. (gal 3) which would include animal sacrifice."

My response: So you use Paul to reject the Prophets? Yikes! Now YOU have an issue!

Remember, the Prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah (Mal. 3; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Zec. 14).

Do you really want to oppose the Prophets?

AND, the same Paul who wrote Gal. 3, said we LIVE by faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) which equates to faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was quoting).

AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we live? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for confirming of the Tanach's conception of "emunah").

Now YOU have another issue! Paul says we live by "emunah", which refers to FAITHFUL Torah-obedience...yet you evidently oppose faithful Torah-obedience?

Furthermore, Paul never said that the "tutor-purpose" of the law was the ONLY purpose of the law.

Remember? The argument which others here on this forum refuse to even answer?

I'll bring it forth again (straight from Paul):

1. Paul taught that we should not sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should OBEY Torah (from 3).

So, if you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected the very PAUL that you just quoted!

And, if you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you AGREE that we should obey Torah, just as Paul likewise taught!

Which horn of this dilemma do you take?

Yes, the law is fulfilled (NOT REPLACED!) in Christ.

Yes, no one keeps Torah sinlessly (that's why we need the Messiah!).

BUT, this is no excuse to ignore our Torah-obedient behavioral obligations as participants in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi there Grace77x70!

Why do you continue to refer us to JGIG, rather than simply learn from the following argument that you CONTINUE to repeatedly refuse to answer?

Remember? The dilemma you won't address?

I'll bring it forth to you (yet again...sigh...)

1. Paul taught that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey Torah (from 3).

If you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences).

If you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you should OBEY TORAH!

Which do you choose?

(please answer....rather than posting pictures of t-shirts and citing JGIG, yet again....)

blessings...
BibleGuy

This is what Paul taught.

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

[SUP]19[/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello eternally-gratefull,

You wrote: "Paul said the law was a tutor until the one who would fulfill (Christ) came to fulfill it. (gal 3) which would include animal sacrifice."

My response: So you use Paul to reject the Prophets? Yikes! Now YOU have an issue!

Remember, the Prophets GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah (Mal. 3; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Zec. 14).

Do you really want to oppose the Prophets?

AND, the same Paul who wrote Gal. 3, said we LIVE by faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) which equates to faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was quoting).

AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we live? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for confirming of the Tanach's conception of "emunah").

Now YOU have another issue! Paul says we live by "emunah", which refers to FAITHFUL Torah-obedience...yet you evidently oppose faithful Torah-obedience?

Furthermore, Paul never said that the "tutor-purpose" of the law was the ONLY purpose of the law.

Remember? The argument which others here on this forum refuse to even answer?

I'll bring it forth again (straight from Paul):

1. Paul taught that we should not sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should OBEY Torah (from 3).

So, if you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected the very PAUL that you just quoted!

And, if you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you AGREE that we should obey Torah, just as Paul likewise taught!

Which horn of this dilemma do you take?

Yes, the law is fulfilled (NOT REPLACED!) in Christ.

Yes, no one keeps Torah sinlessly (that's why we need the Messiah!).

BUT, this is no excuse to ignore our Torah-obedient behavioral obligations as participants in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel.

best...
BibleGuy

1. Just because it is prophesied that the sacrifice would return, does not mean it is good. It returns ONLY because Israel still rejects her messiah, and is still in sin..
2. Gal 3 refutes what you wrote. So nice try..
3. The law can not tell us, or stop us from sin, it was not intended that way, It can ONLY tell us we are sinners and in need of a savior.

 

[BibleGuy]

This is what Paul taught.

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

[SUP]19[/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Hi again!

Thanks for answering...

But your answer only digs your hole deeper....

If you try to interpret Gal. 3:10, 19, 21 in a way which CONTRADICTS the argument I've brought to you, then you've merely established that you don't know how to resolve this contradiction!

That's not a very persuasive defense of a theological position.

I'll bring forth the argument (yet again) which you STILL have not answered:

1. Paul taught that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey Torah (from 3).

If you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences).

If you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you should OBEY TORAH!

Which do you choose?

(please answer....rather than citing additional Pauline Scripture in an effort to avoid answering...)

best...
BibleGuy

 

[Grace777x70]

Galatians 3:10-12 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24-26 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

James 2:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


The reason I don't get into long debates about law-keeping is that it is useless and unprofitable and Paul says to avoid them.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi again!

Thanks for answering...

But your answer only digs your hole deeper....

If you try to interpret Gal. 3:10, 19, 21 in a way which CONTRADICTS the argument I've brought to you, then you've merely established that you don't know how to resolve this contradiction!

1st off. I do not know if your trying to be rude, but your comming across that way, Try to be more polite will you please.. It turns people off.
2nd, the bible can not contradict, And you can not interpret the word lie you did, and make Pauls words in galations make any sense.

That's not a very persuasive defense of a theological position.

lol.. Neither is you just saying it is wrong.. You will need much more than that..

I'll bring forth the argument (yet again) which you STILL have not answered:

1. Paul taught that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey Torah (from 3).

If you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences).

If you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you should OBEY TORAH!

Which do you choose?

(please answer....rather than citing additional Pauline Scripture in an effort to avoid answering...)

best...
BibleGuy

Jesus taught the law could not show us what all sin was, He said the law said do not commit adultry, but he said, if you even look at a woman you have sinned (the law never said this, nor could it) so the law can not only not make you rightious, But show you how to live righteous.

Paul said in gal. The purpose of the law was to claim "all under sin" It did that purpose.. And for those who have come to "faith" the tutor is no longer needed.

If you want to follow law. Feel free.. But you will miss out on so much God wants to show you.

 

[BibleGuy]

1. Just because it is prophesied that the sacrifice would return, does not mean it is good. It returns ONLY because Israel still rejects her messiah, and is still in sin..
2. Gal 3 refutes what you wrote. So nice try..
3. The law can not tell us, or stop us from sin, it was not intended that way, It can ONLY tell us we are sinners and in need of a savior.

Is the WORK OF JESUS good?

Mal. 3:1-4 confirms that JESUS comes to restore Levitical sacrifice.

So do you now stand opposed to this good work which Jesus comes to restore?

Yikes!

You wrote: "...It returns ONLY because Israel still rejects her messiah, and is still in sin.. "

My response: Where does Scripture say that Levitical sacrifices return ONLY because Israel still rejects the Messiah?

You haven't justified your position...

You wrote: "Gal 3 refutes what you wrote. So nice try.."

My response: To the contrary, you just ignored Paul's usage of "emunah"!

I'll bring forth (yet again) the argument you have refused to directly address:

The same Paul who wrote Gal. 3, said we LIVE by faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) which equates to faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was quoting).

AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we live? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for confirming of the Tanach's conception of "emunah").

Now YOU have another issue! Paul says we live by "emunah", which refers to FAITHFUL Torah-obedience...yet you evidently oppose faithful Torah-obedience?

Please address this Pauline usage of "emunah" from Gal. 3, rather than providing the "nice try" non-answer.

You wrote: "The law can not tell us, or stop us from sin, it was not intended that way, It can ONLY tell us we are sinners and in need of a savior."

My response: Now I see your incorrect assumption which has led you astray....

The law ALSO defines sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4), and we should not sin (thus we should obey Torah).

So, should you sin or not?

If no, then you should OBEY Torah (according to Paul, as I've shown).

If yes, then you've got problems!

Will you address these issues I've sought to bring forth?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[mailmandan]

Yes- our obedience does not earn grace, but God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him.

What act of obedience do we accomplish in order to receive the gift of grace? Who obeys Him? Believers or unbelievers?

 

[BibleGuy]

The reason I don't get into long debates about law-keeping is that it is useless and unprofitable and Paul says to avoid them.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

The reason you refuse to answer my Scripturally-motivated reasoning is because it disconfirms your unscriptural position.

And why do you persist in seeking to persuade others of your position, yet you say that such efforts are useless and unprofitable?

That's VERY inconsistent...

best...
BibleGuy