Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

[BibleGuy]

Now I know why Jesus says there will be many on that day who will say "Lord, Lord, didn't we...." I'll say it again, anyone who puts themselves under the works of the law to keep as a means of personal effort as a requirement for salvation, will not enter into the kingdom of God. Those who are followers of Christ and who are not under the law, do not live according to the sinful nature, but are lead by the Spirit. The true person in Christ is trusting in Him as the One who fulfilled the law completely and fully bringing it to its end. Jesus did not come to perpetuate the law, but to fulfill it meeting its righteous requirements. I would suggest that you go back and reread the letter to the Galatians and Romans, because the Holy Spirit through Paul makes it quite clear that we are saved by grace through faith and this not of our own doing. It is the gift of God, not by works.

"Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Hi there Ahwatukee!

I see you have interpreted Mt. 7:21-23 completely backwards.

Mt. 7:21-23 has Jesus casting religious people AWAY from Him....why? Because they exemplified lawlessness (see Gr. "anomia").

Not because they OBEYED the law!

Careful!

Jesus obeyed Torah.

We should imitate Jesus in that regards (Lk. 6:40, 1 Jn. 2:6).

blessings,
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Of course, and what Jesus teaches should be written on our hearts but hearing so many thinking grace does not translate as obeying what is written on our hearts is alarming.

Yes yes!

And here's the proof.

---->>> That which is written upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14).

AND, Paul says that Dt. 30:14 IS the word of faith which he preached (Dt. 30:14 quotes Rom. 10:8 FAVORABLY!).

Thus, FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith which Paul preaches.

Why?

Because if we follow the Torah IN FAITH, then we will embrace the prophesied Prophet-to-come (Dt. 18:15).

And this Prophet-to-come (i.e., the Messiah!) is LIKE UNTO MOSES (Dt. 18:15). That's additional proof that Jesus teaches and obeys Torah, just like Moses also did.

So, faithful Torah-obedience leads to faith in the Messiah (Jesus).

AND, Jesus PRAYS that we be sanctified by what?

TORAH! (Jn. 17:17, because the Torah IS the word of God. See Dt. 1:3, 5:27-33, etc.)

Of course we are not SAVED by faithless Torah-obedience.

BUT, we are SANCTIFIED through grown in FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

So, the Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17).

Should thus OBEY or DISOBEY that Torah?

Obviously....OBEY!

blessings,
BibleGuy

 

[JaumeJ]

It is very important to our life in the Spirit to know, to acknowledge that when Jesus Christ was prophesied to Moses the we were given the foreknowledge to listen to Him and do as He teaches. This is repeated in the New Testament also.

All too many people who claim to believe Him do not hear Him and do as He did. When I have brought this up in the past I have been laughed at and ridiculed. I do not mind for they did worse to our Savior.

People would ask, "Oh are we supposed to walk on the water?" "Are we supposed to raise the dead.?" Actually the response to both of those questions should be self-evident in the Holy Spirit. Yes and yes, but how this is accomplished they cannever know. I do. Praise our Salvation, Jesus Christ, amen.

Yes yes!

And here's the proof.

---->>> That which is written upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14).

AND, Paul says that Dt. 30:14 IS the word of faith which he preached (Dt. 30:14 quotes Rom. 10:8 FAVORABLY!).

Thus, FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith which Paul preaches.

Why?

Because if we follow the Torah IN FAITH, then we will embrace the prophesied Prophet-to-come (Dt. 18:15).

And this Prophet-to-come (i.e., the Messiah!) is LIKE UNTO MOSES (Dt. 18:15). That's additional proof that Jesus teaches and obeys Torah, just like Moses also did.

So, faithful Torah-obedience leads to faith in the Messiah (Jesus).

AND, Jesus PRAYS that we be sanctified by what?

TORAH! (Jn. 17:17, because the Torah IS the word of God. See Dt. 1:3, 5:27-33, etc.)

Of course we are not SAVED by faithless Torah-obedience.

BUT, we are SANCTIFIED through grown in FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

So, the Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17).

Should thus OBEY or DISOBEY that Torah?

Obviously....OBEY!

blessings,
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Romans 3:20-23
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2 Corinthians 3:5-8

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


There is the ministration of the Law and the ministration of the Spirit. Under the Law you are required to work and obey. Under the Spirit you are given the provision of Righteousness.

You can't work at Righteousness to attain it. You are given Righteousness as a gift. You can't work at Salvation to attain it. Salvation is given as a gift.


The Lord Jesus gives us rest from our work at the law. If you ever figure out that you can't do it and come to Him. And it should be pretty obvious that you can't if you read Matt 5. Or any of the rest of the NT.

Hello Grandpa,

Thanks for writing....

You wrote: "You can't work at Righteousness to attain it."

My response: Careful! There is MORE than one form of righteousness we enjoy in Christ.

We enjoy righteousness by faith. BUT, we also DO good works of righteousness as well.

Remember? Abraham was righteous by faith (Ge. 15:6), BUT Abraham also engaged in DOING righteous works of obedience to the law available to him (Ge. 26:5).

Likewise, we are righteous by faith (Gal. 3:11), BUT we also DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:7) righteousness.

In fact, if you do not DO righteousness, then you are NOT of God (1 Jn. 3:10).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Wall]

Now I know why Jesus says there will be many on that day who will say "Lord, Lord, didn't we...."

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Got it backwards Ahwatukee. See what John says about knowing the Lord.

 

[Grandpa]

Hello Grandpa,

Thanks for writing....

You wrote: "You can't work at Righteousness to attain it."

My response: Careful! There is MORE than one form of righteousness we enjoy in Christ.

We enjoy righteousness by faith. BUT, we also DO good works of righteousness as well.

Remember? Abraham was righteous by faith (Ge. 15:6), BUT Abraham also engaged in DOING righteous works of obedience to the law available to him (Ge. 26:5).

Likewise, we are righteous by faith (Gal. 3:11), BUT we also DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:7) righteousness.

In fact, if you do not DO righteousness, then you are NOT of God (1 Jn. 3:10).

blessings...
BibleGuy

You can't work at Righteousness in order to attain it. Same with Salvation. They are given as a gift.

Your understanding and work at righteousness is far below the understanding and work of Righteousness of God.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Is this starting to clear up for you or no?

 

[RickyZ]

Remember? Abraham was righteous by faith (Ge. 15:6),
blessings...
BibleGuy

Keeping in mind that faith is NOT an act of works

 

[GraceAmbassador]

In what sense are we under the law today?

We are NOT under the law in any sense.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)
Some interpret the Bible to make a distinction between the moral and ceremonial law. They then suggest that while we are not under the ceremonial law, we are still bound by the moral law. The problem with this theory is that the Bible never makes a distinction between moral law and ceremonial law. Those who are under the law are bound by every statute; they cannot choose certain parts of the law to obey.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
We who live during the dispensation of grace, however, are saved without having to keep any aspect of the law.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28)
There is a tremendous difference between law and grace. For example, notice the difference between law and grace with respect to the sabbath.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 31:14)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Colossians 2:16)
Under the Old Testament dispensation, men were executed for their failure to obey the sabbath. Today, we are told that no man can judge us if we choose not to observe the sabbath. There is an obvious difference, so we had better make sure that we know which program is operating today.

If we do not need to keep the law today to be saved, then what is the use of the law today?

The function of the law today is to act as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24,25)
The law declares an individual to be a sinner by showing him that there is no possible way for him to fulfill the law.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)
Once the law demonstrates to a sinner his need for redemption, the law has fulfilled its purpose for today in his life.

If we are not bound by the law today, does that mean that we have a license to sin?

Grace is not a license to sin.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:14,15)
Although we are saved solely by grace through faith without observing the law, we should not sin because of the consequences with respect to our heavenly inheritance. We should choose to live righteously not because of the fear of Hell for disobeying the law but because we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be rewarded according to our service (Romans 14:10, 2Corinthians 5:10). The penalty a believer suffers for an unworthy life is not the loss of salvation but the loss of rewards (1Corinthians 3:12-15).
When a saint is under the law, his behavior is constrained by the law. The law tells him what to do and what not to do. It is different for the saint under grace.


Salvation:
SALVATION BY GRACE, THRU FAITH, APART FROM ANY WORKS. NO WORKS REQUIRED OR DESIRED:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

PAUL'S GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES:

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

OUR FAITH (THE FAITH _IN_ CHRIST) ENABLES GOD TO JUSTIFY US BY THE FAITH _OF_ CHRIST (THE FAITH BELONGING TO CHRIST-HIS FAITH):

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found IN HIM, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith OF Christ, the righteousness which is OF God by faith:

ETERNAL SECURITY
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Keeping in mind that faith is NOT an act of works

But faith is work.

So they said to him, “What shall we do that we can do the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe into [the one] whom that one sent.” John 6:28-29​

 

[BibleGuy]

You can't work at Righteousness in order to attain it. Same with Salvation. They are given as a gift.

Your understanding and work at righteousness is far below the understanding and work of Righteousness of God.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Is this starting to clear up for you or no?

Hello Grandpa,

You wrote: "You can't work at Righteousness in order to attain it."

My response: Righteousness is by faith (Gal. 3:11)...but it is ALSO something we DO (Greek "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:29; 1 Jn. 3:7).

BOTH are Scriptural.

============ WARNING! If you do not DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:10) righteousness, then you are NOT of God! (1 Jn. 3:10).

INDEED! Acts of righteousness (Ps. 106:3; Pr. 21:3; Is. 56:1; Tit. 3:5; Heb. 11:33; 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:7,10) are properly performed in obedience to the Torah (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8, cf. Dt. 30:11-14).

Therefore, please DO righteousness in obedience to Torah, just as Scripture warns us to do.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Keeping in mind that faith is NOT an act of works

And, faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:17).

So should our works OBEY or DISOBEY Torah?

Answer: OBEY!

Indeed, our acts of righteousness (Ps. 106:3; Pr. 21:3; Is. 56:1; Tit. 3:5; Heb. 11:33; 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:7,10) are properly performed in obedience to the Torah (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8, cf. Dt. 30:11-14).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

In what sense are we under the law today?

We are NOT under the law in any sense.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)
Some interpret the Bible to make a distinction between the moral and ceremonial law. They then suggest that while we are not under the ceremonial law, we are still bound by the moral law. The problem with this theory is that the Bible never makes a distinction between moral law and ceremonial law. Those who are under the law are bound by every statute; they cannot choose certain parts of the law to obey.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
We who live during the dispensation of grace, however, are saved without having to keep any aspect of the law.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28)
There is a tremendous difference between law and grace. For example, notice the difference between law and grace with respect to the sabbath.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 31:14)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Colossians 2:16)
Under the Old Testament dispensation, men were executed for their failure to obey the sabbath. Today, we are told that no man can judge us if we choose not to observe the sabbath. There is an obvious difference, so we had better make sure that we know which program is operating today.

If we do not need to keep the law today to be saved, then what is the use of the law today?

The function of the law today is to act as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24,25)
The law declares an individual to be a sinner by showing him that there is no possible way for him to fulfill the law.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)
Once the law demonstrates to a sinner his need for redemption, the law has fulfilled its purpose for today in his life.

If we are not bound by the law today, does that mean that we have a license to sin?

Grace is not a license to sin.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:14,15)
Although we are saved solely by grace through faith without observing the law, we should not sin because of the consequences with respect to our heavenly inheritance. We should choose to live righteously not because of the fear of Hell for disobeying the law but because we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be rewarded according to our service (Romans 14:10, 2Corinthians 5:10). The penalty a believer suffers for an unworthy life is not the loss of salvation but the loss of rewards (1Corinthians 3:12-15).
When a saint is under the law, his behavior is constrained by the law. The law tells him what to do and what not to do. It is different for the saint under grace.


Salvation:
SALVATION BY GRACE, THRU FAITH, APART FROM ANY WORKS. NO WORKS REQUIRED OR DESIRED:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

PAUL'S GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES:

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

OUR FAITH (THE FAITH _IN_ CHRIST) ENABLES GOD TO JUSTIFY US BY THE FAITH _OF_ CHRIST (THE FAITH BELONGING TO CHRIST-HIS FAITH):

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found IN HIM, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith OF Christ, the righteousness which is OF God by faith:

ETERNAL SECURITY
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hello!

You quoted Paul: "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

But Paul said sin is TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

Thus, we should NOT sin (i.e., we should not disobey Torah), according to Paul.

Thus, we should OBEY Torah! (according to Paul)

Do we agree?

If not, then you've violated Paul's own teaching...

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Grace777x70]

It looks like Paul used the law for one of it's purposes = to reveal sin. ( Rom 3:20, 7:7 )..Christians are dead to the law because we have died with Christ. If you want to keep the law and break just one law - you have broken them all - James said.

We do not serve in the oldness of the letter of the law but in the newness of the Spirit. We now have in us a new higher law then the law of Moses, The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty, the law of faith, the law of Christ. These supersede and elevate the old law of Moses. These laws of Christ in our new hearts will guide us now.

Jesus Himself often elevated the law to it's original intent. Men try to water it down to say that they can keep the law. It's no more - don't commit adultery - now it's even if you have lust in heart you have committed adultery.


Living from Christ within is how the Christian is to live now. Do not go back to the law and commit spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

 

[Grandpa]

Hello Grandpa,

You wrote: "You can't work at Righteousness in order to attain it."

My response: Righteousness is by faith (Gal. 3:11)...but it is ALSO something we DO (Greek "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:29; 1 Jn. 3:7).

BOTH are Scriptural.

============ WARNING! If you do not DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:10) righteousness, then you are NOT of God! (1 Jn. 3:10).

INDEED! Acts of righteousness (Ps. 106:3; Pr. 21:3; Is. 56:1; Tit. 3:5; Heb. 11:33; 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:7,10) are properly performed in obedience to the Torah (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8, cf. Dt. 30:11-14).

Therefore, please DO righteousness in obedience to Torah, just as Scripture warns us to do.

blessings...
BibleGuy

I see the answer is no.

It's what I expected.

But I always hope.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

What do these scriptures mean to you???

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

I have many issues with "grace teachers". I believe that salvation comes through grace, obviously. But at the same time we do have to obey God. We can repent when we fall, and we all will. Galatians 2:21- "I do not nullify grace, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose". And also Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin".

But there are also verses about being watchful and guarding ourselves. Luke 12:42-47 (the whole chapter really seems to be a warning) tells a story about a man who neglects to guard himself and turns to sinful things, and is cast into hell. And Paul wrote about sin, too. Romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or dont you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life".

Coming to Christ is an act of faith, and if we have faith in Him, we should have faith in His word, and do as He wants us to do. Yeah we all sin, none of us are righteous through the law, and none of us are saved through the law. But that doesnt mean not obeying Him is now an option. And though OSAS teachers may not be trying to spread this message, there are those who will take the message this way. "Well I am saved by grace, and no one is righteous. Everyone sins, and this is a small sin. Ill just repent later on". I dont believe that people who let themselves willingly live in sin with no real attempt at repentance will be saved, because I have not read that in His word.

And yeah, of course I dont follow it perfectly, I fall too. But I know I did wrong, I feel shame and I seek His mercy and aid and try not to do the same thing again. I keep His word in my heart and live with a fear in Him, also with faith in His mercy and the sacrifice made by Christ. But I remember how He hates sin, and how sin leads to death. And I keep myself focused on doing what is right, and I try to not let myself say "well I can repent later on". I dont think we should teach that salvation comes through works at all. But I do think we need to teach that we must obey His word.

I have been accused of claiming that salvation comes through works before, I do not believe that at all : p But I believe that God hates sin, and sin leads to death. And that if we come to Him, we must "live a new life", and set our hearts to Him and following Him.

 

[BibleGuy]

It looks like Paul used the law for one of it's purposes = to reveal sin. ( Rom 3:20, 7:7 )..Christians are dead to the law because we have died with Christ. If you want to keep the law and break just one law - you have broken them all - James said.

We do not serve in the oldness of the letter of the law but in the newness of the Spirit. We now have in us a new higher law then the law of Moses, The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty, the law of faith, the law of Christ. These supersede and elevate the old law of Moses. These laws of Christ in our new hearts will guide us now.

Jesus Himself often elevated the law to it's original intent. Men try to water it down to say that they can keep the law. It's no more - don't commit adultery - now it's even if you have lust in heart you have committed adultery.


Living from Christ within is how the Christian is to live now. Do not go back to the law and commit spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."


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Hello!

You wrote: "It looks like Paul used the law for one of it's purposes = to reveal sin. ( Rom 3:20, 7:7 )."

My response: YES!! The Torah reveals sin.

AND, Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, we should NOT disobey Torah (according to Paul).

Thus, we should OBEY Torah, according to Paul.


So again, I'll set forth the argument you continue to refuse to answer:

1. Sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
2. Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
3. Paul said we should NOT disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said we should OBEY Torah (from 3).

This logic is VERY tight...and you've still REFUSED to address it.

So AGAIN I will ask you the same question that you continue to refuse to answer:

Do you reject 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If you reject 1 or 2, then you've rejected Scripture.
If you reject 3 or 4, then you've rejected the logical consequence of Scripture.
If you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you now believe we should obey Torah!

So which is it?

I'm hanging you on the horns of this dilemma...please choose your position.

Which is it?

1? 2? 3? 4?

No more changing the subject...

No more pictures of T-shirts...

Just ANSWER the question and learn from it!

1? 2? 3? or 4?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I see the answer is no.

It's what I expected.

But I always hope.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

What do these scriptures mean to you???

Hello Grandpa,

First, you have NOT bothered to seriously engage my position (nor the Scriptures I've used to support it).

So, I'm beginning to think you are not capable of defending your position in light of the Scriptural objections I've raised against it.

What does 1 Jn. 3:10 mean to you???

Do you not clearly see that righteousness is something we DO (Gr. "poieo")???


Now, I trust you'll answer my question.

And, I'll answer yours now.

You asked: "What do these scriptures mean to you???" (referring to Rom. 9:31-32)

My response: Rom. 9:32 clearly confirms that Paul is criticizing FAITHLESS works of the law (not FAITHFUL works of the law).

Read Rom. 9:32 again. Please notice Paul's contrast between FAITH and WORKS OF THE LAW.

This implies that the "works of the law" which Paul is talking about are FAITHLESS works of the law.

Now, does this mean that Paul also opposes ALL works of the law? Of course not! That's NOT what the text says.

Rom. 9:31-32 never says that Paul opposes ALL works of the law. Rather, it merely confirms that Paul opposes FAITHLESS works of the law.

And remember, Paul just quoted Dt. 30:14 (at Rom. 10:8). This confirms that the word of faith which Paul preached was a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith. Why Torah-obedient? Because Dt. 30:14 is a TORAH-OBEDIENT passage which Paul claims IS the word of faith which he preached.

Again, we find that Rom. 9:32 and Rom. 10:8 BOTH confirm my position.

What is my position? My position is that Paul OPPOSED faithless Torah-obedience, but preached FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

That's why Paul's view of sin (which Grace777x70 refuses to directly address, as I've challenged him) FORCES us to accept that Paul taught that Christians should OBEY Torah.

Here's the argument (which Grace777x70 refuses to directly address, and which directly confirms my position):

1. Paul said we should not sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul said sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul said we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said we should obey Torah (from 3).

So which do you reject? 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If you accept them all, then you agree we should obey Torah!

But if you reject any of 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've opposed Scripture (and it's logical consequences).

Which horn of this dilemma will you take?

Or will you also simply ignore this question, like others here?

blessings.
BibleGuy

 

[Grandpa]

Hello Grandpa,

First, you have NOT bothered to seriously engage my position (nor the Scriptures I've used to support it).

So, I'm beginning to think you are not capable of defending your position in light of the Scriptural objections I've raised against it.

What does 1 Jn. 3:10 mean to you???

Do you not clearly see that righteousness is something we DO (Gr. "poieo")???


Now, I trust you'll answer my question.

And, I'll answer yours now.

You asked: "What do these scriptures mean to you???" (referring to Rom. 9:31-32)

My response: Rom. 9:32 clearly confirms that Paul is criticizing FAITHLESS works of the law (not FAITHFUL works of the law).

Read Rom. 9:32 again. Please notice Paul's contrast between FAITH and WORKS OF THE LAW.

This implies that the "works of the law" which Paul is talking about are FAITHLESS works of the law.

Now, does this mean that Paul also opposes ALL works of the law? Of course not! That's NOT what the text says.

Rom. 9:31-32 never says that Paul opposes ALL works of the law. Rather, it merely confirms that Paul opposes FAITHLESS works of the law.

And remember, Paul just quoted Dt. 30:14 (at Rom. 10:8). This confirms that the word of faith which Paul preached was a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith. Why Torah-obedient? Because Dt. 30:14 is a TORAH-OBEDIENT passage which Paul claims IS the word of faith which he preached.

Again, we find that Rom. 9:32 and Rom. 10:8 BOTH confirm my position.

What is my position? My position is that Paul OPPOSED faithless Torah-obedience, but preached FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

That's why Paul's view of sin (which Grace777x70 refuses to directly address, as I've challenged him) FORCES us to accept that Paul taught that Christians should OBEY Torah.

Here's the argument (which Grace777x70 refuses to directly address, and which directly confirms my position):

1. Paul said we should not sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul said sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul said we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said we should obey Torah (from 3).

So which do you reject? 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If you accept them all, then you agree we should obey Torah!

But if you reject any of 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've opposed Scripture (and it's logical consequences).

Which horn of this dilemma will you take?

Or will you also simply ignore this question, like others here?

blessings.
BibleGuy

Faithless works of the law???

Never heard of that.

Is that like faithless works of the flesh?

Your interpretations of what you think Paul has said is way out of whack.

How do you interpret being dead to your work at Torah so you can be alive to God?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This says that the way to be free from sin is to not be under the works of Torah. Same as Romans 9:31-32.

It doesn't say anything about "faithless" works of Torah.

Galatians 3:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


I guess you don't read Galatians. Its ok if you don't. You still need to go over Romans.

 

[TMS]

Yes yes!

And here's the proof.

---->>> That which is written upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14).

AND, Paul says that Dt. 30:14 IS the word of faith which he preached (Dt. 30:14 quotes Rom. 10:8 FAVORABLY!).

Thus, FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith which Paul preaches.

Why?

Because if we follow the Torah IN FAITH, then we will embrace the prophesied Prophet-to-come (Dt. 18:15).

And this Prophet-to-come (i.e., the Messiah!) is LIKE UNTO MOSES (Dt. 18:15). That's additional proof that Jesus teaches and obeys Torah, just like Moses also did.

So, faithful Torah-obedience leads to faith in the Messiah (Jesus).

AND, Jesus PRAYS that we be sanctified by what?

TORAH! (Jn. 17:17, because the Torah IS the word of God. See Dt. 1:3, 5:27-33, etc.)

Of course we are not SAVED by faithless Torah-obedience.

BUT, we are SANCTIFIED through grown in FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

So, the Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17).

Should thus OBEY or DISOBEY that Torah?

Obviously....OBEY!

blessings,
BibleGuy

What about all the things in the Torah that where shadows or types of Jesus, (things that pointed to the coming Messiah).
Do we continue to Sacrifice animals in the sanctuary when Jesus has become our blood offering?

 

[TMS]

I don't think anyone believes that "righteousness comes by Works" or by obeying the law you can work your way, or earn a place, in heaven. If you believe this you sure need to reread and understand the Bible.

But Can the LAW and GRACE exist together?
If we believe in Grace through faith does that mean the law is gone, void, useless, and we have no need to consider it anymore?
If i believe in the law does that mean i'm working my way to heaven?

Can i believe that righteousness comes by faith in the death or blood of my perfect saviour (Grace), and because i love Him i want to obey the law like Him and allow Him to live His righteousness in me? If i fail i have an advocate, Praise God.