House of Cornelius and the law

[sparty-g]

hi sparty!

I'm typing on a tablet here, so it's easiest for me to write short messages (I had been using a laptop, but wrist pain).


which part of your message would you like me to respond to first?

Nothing really. My post was more observational thoughts and ramblings than anything else, so I don't think there is a worthwhile avenue to take off of it. I'll read through some of the other posts and find something to which I will respond. I'm more or less just looking for opportunities to present another way of thinking when it comes to our understanding of certain passages of Scripture.

 

[BibleGuy]

I choose the (3) option....believe in the New Covenant and in Jesus only and what He has already done for my salvation. I am safe in Him! I am in Christ and His life in me is how I live by now.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3[/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2:19-21 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. ( I am married to Christ now - I don't want to commit spiritual adultery )

[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



View attachment 152141

Hello!

Of course!

You REFUSE to answer my question (again).

I'll ask again:

If Jeremiah prophesied any other "Torah" than the Torah of Moses, then Jeremiah was a false prophet!

So here's your dilemma for today...choose one of the following:

1. Jeremiah prophesied of a different Torah than the Torah of Moses (Jer. 31:33).
2. Jeremiah prophesied that the Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

So, which is it?

Choose (1), and then Jeremiah was a false prophet.

Choose (2), and then we should obey Mosaic Torah as New Covenant participants.

Which do you choose?

There is no "third" option...

Why? Because either Mosaic Torah passes into the New Covenant, or it does not. There is LOGICALLY no other choice.

So which do you choose?

1? or 2?

If you refuse to answer again, then it will simply expose the logical failure of your position.

So which is it?

1? or 2?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy

The word of God or what you call Torah is not after either man. Moses is typified as the law giver but not one jot or tittle was after any sinner to include Moses, as if they offered their own private interpretation, of the interpretation God gave them from heaven.

The witness of God (scripture) is always greater than the witness of men, the private interpretations as personal commentaries.

What you are proposing is an oral tradition of men . It seems to do despite to the grace of God like that of a Judaizers that did not walk by faith.

It, when the Spirit of Christ from heaven put His words on Moses lips and the hand he moved by the finger of God was not any different than the interpretation that came from the mouth of Balaam’s ass ...which did work to restrain that false prophet. Or the multi- interpretation that the 3000 heard at Pentecost, it was not after Peter in the same way, as the law of Moses. Or the prophesies of Elias, not one word of prophecy came after them.. .We are not to attribute the word of God to sinners. That would be to blaspheme His Holy name. First things first.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any “private interpretation” .For the prophecy (God’s interpretation to us) came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

The question is.... why did Christ call the man in Mathew 7 a worker of iniquity?

Is prophesying in His name(not Moses name) ? and in His name casting out devils? and in His name doing many wonderful works. Would those things be the work of iniquity by which Christ said ,I never knew you.... or is it doing despite to His grace, as self-righteousness ?

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that “work” iniquity. Mat 7:22
.
So, which is it?

Choose (1), It’s the word of God,as the law of God , after no man, as it teaches us we abide in him as we seek his approval by faith.

Choose (2), It’s the word as a law of men and not after God ,as it teaches us we abide in the flesh of men as we seek the approval of men?

Which do you choose?

Why should I answer you, if you refuse to answer me?

I'll ask again:

If Jeremiah prophesied any other "Torah" than the Torah of Moses, then Jeremiah was a false prophet!

So here's your dilemma for today...choose one of the following:

1. Jeremiah prophesied of a different Torah than the Torah of Moses (Jer. 31:33).
2. Jeremiah prophesied that the Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

So, which is it?

Choose (1), and then Jeremiah was a false prophet.

Choose (2), and then we should obey Mosaic Torah as New Covenant participants.

Which do you choose?

You wrote: "What you are proposing is an oral tradition of men."

My response: When did I ever propose oral tradition of men?

To the contrary, we must OPPOSE man's tradition whenever it nullifies the Torah (Mk. 7:8), just as Jesus taught.

The Torah is not the oral tradition of men! Rather, it is the word of God...so let's obey it!

After all, the Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33), so why would you oppose the very Torah of the New Covenant in which you supposedly participate?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

'So, we can disobey Torah if it is beneficial?'

yes. beneficial in the sense of helping others, in the sense of loving one's neighbor.

but then, that's not disobeying the spirit of the law, just the letter.



MARK 2:25 remember what David did, when he had need, and was hungry—he, and those who were with him?
MARK 2:26 How he entered into God’s house when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the show bread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and gave also to those who were with him?”

Yes, but this is simply proof that Torah has an hierarchical structure to it, where some laws within Torah must take precedence over others in SPECIAL CASES where there exist Torah instruction conflicts.

But these are special cases, not widespread routine occurrences.

Furthermore, there is NEVER any dispute as to whether Torah is applicable or not...it's just a matter of properly identifying the correct priority of various Torah-grounded instructions.

And, since Torah portions are WIDELY rejected by the religious establishment (with no justifiable benefit), then we should be emphasizing our need (within the religious establishment) to maximize Torah-obedience...for this is what is lacking within the religious establishment.

For example, pork consumption is widespread throughout the religious establishment...yet it should not be...and there is generally no benefit to this pork consumption...and there is SIGNIFICANT harm to this...

So let's focus on obeying Torah where we CAN and SHOULD, but have NOT.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

ROMANS 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.

so, I don't know... did they get eternal life based on what they did? I would say no.




but sure, I'll rephrase
Jesus tells him what to do. (I doubt the lawyer will be able to do it, I haven't been able to.)

a way better thing to ask Jesus, which no one in the Gospels does, is Please give me eternal life.

Hello Dan_473!

So we agree that it IS possible to obey Torah (Dt. 30:11).

We agree it IS possible to walk BLAMELESSLY in obedience to Torah (Lk. 1:6).

And, when Paul (Rom. 3:10) says there is no one righteous (G1342), he is quoting the PSALMS which ALSO confirm that righteous (G1342, LXX) people DO exist! For example, see G1342 (LXX) in the Psalms (1:5-6; 5:12; 11:3,5; 31:18; 32:11; and on and on and on...).

SO, Rom. 3:10 does NOT prove that righteous Torah-obedient people do not exist...because the very Psalms which Paul was quoting clearly affirm that righteous Torah-obedient people DO exist!

You wrote: "did they get eternal life based on what they did? I would say no."

My response: Eternal life is a free gift to those of faith...but those of faith properly grow in Torah-obedience. So, righteous people (who inherit eternal life) properly obey Torah, as the Scriptures repeatedly affirm.

AND, righteousness IS something we DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:2:29) as evidence of being born of Him.

AND, those who do not DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:10) righteousness are NOT of God!

So, why do you doubt the lawyer will be able to obey Torah?

Moses said it is NOT too hard (Dt. 30:11); apparently you agree.

Elizabeth and Zacharias did it (Lk. 1:6).

The Psalms REPEATEDLY confirm that Torah-obedient righteous people exist (Ps. 1:5-6; 5:12; 11:3,5; 31:18; 32:11; and on and on and on...)

So, why say you have not been able to obey Torah, when Scripture clearly confirms that you CAN obey Torah?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

certainly!

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

FULFILLED (not REPLACED).

Thus, we obey all observable Torah, for this IS the way we properly love our neighbor, as the Scriptures repeatedly confirm.

Now, are you implying that "loving your neighbor" alleviates you of the responsibility to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses?

That would be a VERY unscriptural position...

best...
BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

FULFILLED (not REPLACED).

Thus, we obey all observable Torah, for this IS the way we properly love our neighbor, as the Scriptures repeatedly confirm.

Now, are you implying that "loving your neighbor" alleviates you of the responsibility to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses?

That would be a VERY unscriptural position...

best...
BibleGuy

Good evening bibleguy,

I have 2 questions for you.

Do you know if you are going to heaven?

And if so how are you getting there?

 

[BibleGuy]

Good evening bibleguy,

I have 2 questions for you.

Do you know if you are going to heaven?

And if so how are you getting there?

Hello redeemed2014,

Nice to hear from you....

Thanks for asking...

Yes, we know we have passed into life because we love (1 Jn. 3:14).

We know we love when we observe God's commands (1 Jn. 5:2).

God's commands are found in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

So, when we know that we: (1) love others, (2) love God, and (3) obey God's commands in Torah, then we know we have passed from death into life.

Thus we're not surprised to see Jesus note that Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).

Now, I think I may be more excited about heaven coming to earth (Mt. 6:10; Ac. 1:6; Rev. 11:15), than us going to heaven!

And, this coming kingdom will be a Torah-obedient kingdom (Is. 9:6-7; Ps. 89:30-32; Jer. 23:5), even with Levitical Torah restored (Jer. 33:17-21; Mal.3 :1-4; Zec. 14), when we are again gathered into the land to obey ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8).

The kingdom of heaven will be AWESOME!

We have much to eagerly anticipate!

BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

Hello redeemed2014,

Nice to hear from you....

Thanks for asking...

Yes, we know we have passed into life because we love (1 Jn. 3:14).

We know we love when we observe God's commands (1 Jn. 5:2).

God's commands are found in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

So, when we know that we: (1) love others, (2) love God, and (3) obey God's commands in Torah, then we know we have passed from death into life.

Thus we're not surprised to see Jesus note that Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).

Now, I think I may be more excited about heaven coming to earth (Mt. 6:10; Ac. 1:6; Rev. 11:15), than us going to heaven!

And, this coming kingdom will be a Torah-obedient kingdom (Is. 9:6-7; Ps. 89:30-32; Jer. 23:5), even with Levitical Torah restored (Jer. 33:17-21; Mal.3 :1-4; Zec. 14), when we are again gathered into the land to obey ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8).

The kingdom of heaven will be AWESOME!

We have much to eagerly anticipate!

BibleGuy

May I ask where does the Lord Jesus Christ and the death, burial, and Resurrection fit into that? I see you mentioned His righteousness, but with out a faith and belief in his sacrifice it would not be imputed to us. Therefore there would not be an atonement for our sins. Daniel tells us that our righteosnesses are as filthy rags, we are also told God is not a respector of persons. Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you. No man can come to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[garee]

Here's a problem with your position...you wrote: "Seeing no man will be found with a righteousness that could come from something they could do."

My response: Righteousness IS something we DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:29).

Hi BibleGuy, thanks for the reply

Not a problem for one who has been "born again" according to the incorruptible seed of His living, abiding word.

First things first. Have you been born again as one found with no righteousness of their own self?

Yes, righteousness is something we do. Its where self-righteousness comes from like the man in Mathew 7 who did do despite to the grace of God according to his own righteousness.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is “born of him.”

If we are not "born of Him" we have no righteousness that we could offer to show His work that he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Remember, he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases .He performs that which is appointed to us . Therefore it is God who can make our heart soft. Of course this is according to His grace(unmerited favor)

So yes, those who will not be found with a righteousness of their own, as those who are born again they have entered His eternal rest .The key is "born of Him". Not born of Moses who you keep bringing up for some reason or other. After all no man can serve “two masters”.

We are redeemed by righteousness of Christ according to His finished work and that not of our own selves . We cannot have a righteousness of our own by what you call keeping the Torah, the law of God... which no man could keep perfectly without stumbling in the least. After all its not a law of men as a tradition thereof as if it was after Moses or Jeremiah or any apostle that God did sent as a prophet.

The things of men offend God he will not share his glory with the creature.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having “mine own righteousness”, which is of the law (Torah) , but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is "of God" by faith:

It is simply blasphemy to accredit one self with a righteousness that could only come by the righteousness of another. God alone .

We are to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus, and that includes one self, as self-righteous.

Question when you say Torah; would that include the oral traditions of the fathers as those who held to Judaism and turned the things of God upside down?

They are described as those in regard to a body of precepts, especially . ritualism, fleshly ceremonial laws which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence?

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, but this is simply proof that Torah has an hierarchical structure to it, where some laws within Torah must take precedence over others in SPECIAL CASES where there exist Torah instruction conflicts.

But these are special cases, not widespread routine occurrences.

Furthermore, there is NEVER any dispute as to whether Torah is applicable or not...it's just a matter of properly identifying the correct priority of various Torah-grounded instructions.

And, since Torah portions are WIDELY rejected by the religious establishment (with no justifiable benefit), then we should be emphasizing our need (within the religious establishment) to maximize Torah-obedience...for this is what is lacking within the religious establishment.

For example, pork consumption is widespread throughout the religious establishment...yet it should not be...and there is generally no benefit to this pork consumption...and there is SIGNIFICANT harm to this...

So let's focus on obeying Torah where we CAN and SHOULD, but have NOT.

blessings...
BibleGuy

'Yes, but this is simply proof that Torah has an hierarchical structure to it, where some laws within Torah must take precedence over others in SPECIAL CASES where there exist Torah instruction conflicts.'

right! if an action edifies the other person, then do it. otherwise, don't.

what edifies the other? since we don't know what's in other people's hearts, we need the spirit to guide us.

GALATIANS 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.
GALATIANS 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.

 

[Dan_473]

Hello Dan_473!

So we agree that it IS possible to obey Torah (Dt. 30:11).

We agree it IS possible to walk BLAMELESSLY in obedience to Torah (Lk. 1:6).

And, when Paul (Rom. 3:10) says there is no one righteous (G1342), he is quoting the PSALMS which ALSO confirm that righteous (G1342, LXX) people DO exist! For example, see G1342 (LXX) in the Psalms (1:5-6; 5:12; 11:3,5; 31:18; 32:11; and on and on and on...).

SO, Rom. 3:10 does NOT prove that righteous Torah-obedient people do not exist...because the very Psalms which Paul was quoting clearly affirm that righteous Torah-obedient people DO exist!

You wrote: "did they get eternal life based on what they did? I would say no."

My response: Eternal life is a free gift to those of faith...but those of faith properly grow in Torah-obedience. So, righteous people (who inherit eternal life) properly obey Torah, as the Scriptures repeatedly affirm.

AND, righteousness IS something we DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:2:29) as evidence of being born of Him.

AND, those who do not DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:10) righteousness are NOT of God!

So, why do you doubt the lawyer will be able to obey Torah?

Moses said it is NOT too hard (Dt. 30:11); apparently you agree.

Elizabeth and Zacharias did it (Lk. 1:6).

The Psalms REPEATEDLY confirm that Torah-obedient righteous people exist (Ps. 1:5-6; 5:12; 11:3,5; 31:18; 32:11; and on and on and on...)

So, why say you have not been able to obey Torah, when Scripture clearly confirms that you CAN obey Torah?

best...
BibleGuy

I've used the saying 'he's a good guy'.

I don't mean absolutely good, but good compared to other people.

I think the bible does this, too.



a person can make a good stab at keeping the letter of Torah, they can't keep it absolutely.

 

[garee]

I've used the saying 'he's a good guy'.

I don't mean absolutely good, but good compared to other people.

I think the bible does this, too.



a person can make a good stab at keeping the letter of Torah, they can't keep it absolutely.

Yes to violate the least of the commandments as law is to be found guilty of violating the whole

I would agree .It seem that our brother, the BibleGuy,when he says Torah ..it includes the oral tradition of men....called fathers ,that are equally authoritative to God's written Tradition the Bible, and therefore can worship two masters by saying they are one and the same. ..

 

[Dan_473]

FULFILLED (not REPLACED).

Thus, we obey all observable Torah, for this IS the way we properly love our neighbor, as the Scriptures repeatedly confirm.

Now, are you implying that "loving your neighbor" alleviates you of the responsibility to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses?

That would be a VERY unscriptural position...

best...
BibleGuy

that's correct, not replace.

rather, incorporate and expand on.

 

[BibleGuy]

May I ask where does the Lord Jesus Christ and the death, burial, and Resurrection fit into that? I see you mentioned His righteousness, but with out a faith and belief in his sacrifice it would not be imputed to us. Therefore there would not be an atonement for our sins. Daniel tells us that our righteosnesses are as filthy rags, we are also told God is not a respector of persons. Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you. No man can come to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ

Hello redeemed2014;

You wrote: "Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you."

My response: I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

But of course, I never claimed such a thing...and that's not my position. So let's not accuse me of seeking justification by faithless works.

Furthermore, everything I stated is straight from the Scriptures...so I'm not sure why you seem to have a problem with my position.

You wrote: "May I ask where does the Lord Jesus Christ and the death, burial, and Resurrection fit into that?"

My response: Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead nearly 2000 years ago...we are justified in His blood (Rom. 5:9).

But this fact does nothing to negate anything in my previous post...

Of course we need faith and belief in His sacrifice...but this fact negates nothing in my previous post.

You wrote: "with out a faith and belief in his sacrifice it would not be imputed to us."

My response: Sure, we become the righteousness of God in the Messiah (2 Cor. 5:21), but this fact negates nothing in my previous post.

You wrote: "Daniel tells us that our righteosnesses are as filthy rags..."

My response: I think you're actually talking about Isaiah 64:6, right? This supports my position!

Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

Isaiah never says that there is no such thing as a righteous Torah-obedient person. In fact, Is. 64:5 immediately confirms that truly righteous people walk in YHVH's ways. And where are the ways of YHVH written? TORAH! (1 Ki. 2:3).

You see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

So Is. 64 confirms my position in many ways.

I'm glad you brought it up.

You wrote: "Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you."

My response: Everything I stated flows straight out of Scripture. Do you disagree with Scripture?

You wrote: "No man can come to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ."

My response: Yes! But that does nothing to negate my position.

I don't understand why you're resisting my position...I never said we "earn" heaven apart from faith.

BUT, we who are of faith properly grow in obedience to Torah, as I've shown.

Agreed?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy, thanks for the reply

Not a problem for one who has been "born again" according to the incorruptible seed of His living, abiding word.

First things first. Have you been born again as one found with no righteousness of their own self?

Yes, righteousness is something we do. Its where self-righteousness comes from like the man in Mathew 7 who did do despite to the grace of God according to his own righteousness.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is “born of him.”

If we are not "born of Him" we have no righteousness that we could offer to show His work that he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Remember, he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases .He performs that which is appointed to us . Therefore it is God who can make our heart soft. Of course this is according to His grace(unmerited favor)

So yes, those who will not be found with a righteousness of their own, as those who are born again they have entered His eternal rest .The key is "born of Him". Not born of Moses who you keep bringing up for some reason or other. After all no man can serve “two masters”.

We are redeemed by righteousness of Christ according to His finished work and that not of our own selves . We cannot have a righteousness of our own by what you call keeping the Torah, the law of God... which no man could keep perfectly without stumbling in the least. After all its not a law of men as a tradition thereof as if it was after Moses or Jeremiah or any apostle that God did sent as a prophet.

The things of men offend God he will not share his glory with the creature.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having “mine own righteousness”, which is of the law (Torah) , but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is "of God" by faith:

It is simply blasphemy to accredit one self with a righteousness that could only come by the righteousness of another. God alone .

We are to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus, and that includes one self, as self-righteous.

Question when you say Torah; would that include the oral traditions of the fathers as those who held to Judaism and turned the things of God upside down?

They are described as those in regard to a body of precepts, especially . ritualism, fleshly ceremonial laws which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence?

Hello,

You wrote: "Have you been born again as one found with no righteousness of their own self?"

My response: Yes.

You wrote: "The key is "born of Him". Not born of Moses who you keep bringing up for some reason or other. After all no man can serve “two masters”."

My response: Why the false dichotomy?

The Torah of Moses points us to Christ. Christ points us to Torah. They go hand-in-hand.

Jesus and the Apostles obeyed and taught Torah (and we should too). THAT is why I keep bringing it up! MANY religious people among us do not even know this basic fact regarding Jesus' (and the apostles') ministry in the Torah-obedient Gospel of faith.

You wrote: "We cannot have a righteousness of our own by what you call keeping the Torah, the law of God... which no man could keep perfectly without stumbling in the least."

My response: To the contrary, our works of righteousness are properly performed in OBEDIENCE (not opposition!) to Torah. (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8 and Dt. 30:11-14).

Of course we can not have a righteousness "of our own" (i.e., apart from faith). BUT, that's no excuse to ignore your covenant obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the many covenants in which you participate.

Of course no man (besides the Messiah) can keep Torah sinlessly. BUT, that's no excuse to ignore your covenant obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the many covenants in which you participate.

You wrote: "It is simply blasphemy to accredit one self with a righteousness that could only come by the righteousness of another. God alone ."

My response: It is NOT blasphemy to identify Scriptures which confirm that we (who are of faith) properly perform acts of righteousness in OBEDIENCE to Torah (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8 and Dt. 30:11-14).

You wrote: "We are to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus, and that includes one self, as self-righteous."

My response. Very good. NOW, if YHVH is our God, then do we OBEY or DISOBEY His ways?

Of course! OBEY! And where are His ways found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

The Messiah, of course, agrees....even praying that we be sanctified by Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, let's be sanctified in faithful growing obedience to the Torah which our Messiah prays we obey!

You wrote: "Question when you say Torah; would that include the oral traditions of the fathers as those who held to Judaism and turned the things of God upside down?"

My response: Torah trumps tradition (Mk. 7:8-9). BUT, Torah-obedient traditions should be KEPT (2 Th. 3:6), and those who oppose such Torah-obedient traditions should be put to shame (2 Th. 3:14) and admonished (2 Th. 3:15).

So then, let us ADMONISH one another with PSALMS (Col. 3:16), just as Torah-obedient Paul requires of us.

AND, what do the Psalms require? TORAH! (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119; etc...)

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

'Yes, but this is simply proof that Torah has an hierarchical structure to it, where some laws within Torah must take precedence over others in SPECIAL CASES where there exist Torah instruction conflicts.'

right! if an action edifies the other person, then do it. otherwise, don't.

what edifies the other? since we don't know what's in other people's hearts, we need the spirit to guide us.

GALATIANS 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.
GALATIANS 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.

Yes! AND, the flesh can not obey Torah (Rom. 8:7-8)....thus, the Spirit (by contrast, Rom. 8:9) leads us to OBEY Torah.

That's how we can best edify others.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I've used the saying 'he's a good guy'.

I don't mean absolutely good, but good compared to other people.

I think the bible does this, too.



a person can make a good stab at keeping the letter of Torah, they can't keep it absolutely.

Ok...and, I think we agree that people CAN keep Torah blamelessly (Lk. 1:6).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Yes to violate the least of the commandments as law is to be found guilty of violating the whole

I would agree .It seem that our brother, the BibleGuy,when he says Torah ..it includes the oral tradition of men....called fathers ,that are equally authoritative to God's written Tradition the Bible, and therefore can worship two masters by saying they are one and the same. ..

My response: My use of "Torah" generally refers to the Torah of Moses (found, generally, in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). My use of "Torah" generally does NOT refer to so-called "oral Torah".

However, written Torah guarantees a certain measure of man-made judgments. And in fact, when such Mosaic judgments are properly functioning, we should OBEY them (Mt. 23:2-3), per Jesus' teaching.

And, if Jesus obeyed elements of oral tradition, then it's ok for us to do the same (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

BUT, remember that TORAH TRUMPS TRADITION (Mk. 7:8-9).

So, I never said that "oral Torah" is equally authoritative to God's written words in the Bible.

And I never said we worship oral torah!

Yikes...

BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

Hello redeemed2014;

You wrote: "Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you."

My response: I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

But of course, I never claimed such a thing...and that's not my position. So let's not accuse me of seeking justification by faithless works.

Furthermore, everything I stated is straight from the Scriptures...so I'm not sure why you seem to have a problem with my position.

You wrote: "May I ask where does the Lord Jesus Christ and the death, burial, and Resurrection fit into that?"

My response: Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead nearly 2000 years ago...we are justified in His blood (Rom. 5:9).

But this fact does nothing to negate anything in my previous post...

Of course we need faith and belief in His sacrifice...but this fact negates nothing in my previous post.

You wrote: "with out a faith and belief in his sacrifice it would not be imputed to us."

My response: Sure, we become the righteousness of God in the Messiah (2 Cor. 5:21), but this fact negates nothing in my previous post.

You wrote: "Daniel tells us that our righteosnesses are as filthy rags..."

My response: I think you're actually talking about Isaiah 64:6, right? This supports my position!

Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

Isaiah never says that there is no such thing as a righteous Torah-obedient person. In fact, Is. 64:5 immediately confirms that truly righteous people walk in YHVH's ways. And where are the ways of YHVH written? TORAH! (1 Ki. 2:3).

You see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

So Is. 64 confirms my position in many ways.

I'm glad you brought it up.

You wrote: "Everything you stated tells us you earned it and God owes it to you."

My response: Everything I stated flows straight out of Scripture. Do you disagree with Scripture?

You wrote: "No man can come to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ."

My response: Yes! But that does nothing to negate my position.

I don't understand why you're resisting my position...I never said we "earn" heaven apart from faith.

BUT, we who are of faith properly grow in obedience to Torah, as I've shown.

Agreed?

blessings...
BibleGuy

I am sorry but i cannot agree because you said:

-I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

You cannot obey the law sinlessly we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God so we deserve death everyone of us. But by the grace of God we have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only person to ever walk the earth without spot being sacrificed for our sins who became our payment imputing his righteousness to us. I am sorry brother but you cannot earn heaven and the Lord owes us nothing, when can the created tell the creator He owes us something.


-Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

If you believe that you are walking completely 100% Torah obedient you are deceiving yourself. We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.

-you see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

When do we become a Jew? Do you get to pick the tribe you want to be part of? Do we get blood transfusions so we become part of the blood line?

We are still gentiles saved by the grace of God through the death, burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit which will guide us according to the spirit and not the flesh. Made righteous by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless