Nowhere does it say " pray to your deceased saints" if that is what you are asking. Though no where does it say "do not speak with your brothers and sister in Christ living or dead." Why don't you pray to your deceased brothers and sisters in Christ? Is praying for/to your deceased relative wrong then? Food for thought. We are encouraged to rely on eachother in multiple occasions in scripture. Hebrews 11 11-12 shows the "great cloud of witnesses" who are deceased saints in Christ after being persecuted for their Christianity. I already mentioned about the saints having prayers in Rev 5, now looks at what happens with the saints prayers in Rev 8:3-5. How did the saints (our brothers and sisters deceased in Heaven) receive prayers? Why did they need to pray? If Christ is the only omniscient one? Bingo. Your point of priests in Heb 7 is referring to the Mosiac law practices- so I agree with that and remember that does not refer to Christ's covenant priests. So the rest of your paragraph is irrelevant. Catholic Priests don't sacrifice animals, that law is dead according to Christ and St. Paul. That is great your elders and church pray for eachother, that as well as praying for our deceased brothers and sisters has been going on as part of the Church since Christ and actually before (2 Macc 12:43-45) Something to take into account though to, by what authority do your pastors and leaders have to preach? Christ established a SINGLE church. How do you know they are correct? Considering holy scripture is not for any one person's interpretation, who started that Church? The Catholic church was historically, biblically, and spiritually established by Christ. The next "church" to come was 1500 years later by a heretic. Thereon the rest of the "protestants" came. Not everyone who believes a protestant christian faith is a heretic, but the ones who started them are. You are right, there are many Catholics who are faithful and great Christians, but there are many who aren't. This is the same with any other belief as well. Some more food for thought, Christ said hid Church would be as a mustard seed: start as one of the smallest of seeds, though grow into one of the largest of trees. Which is the only Christian church to follow his prophesy? The Catholic Church. It is the largest organized Christian church on the planet. Larger than all the new Christian man-made faiths combined. These were Jesus words. One correction though, these "lost" Catholics you speak of who mean well, though don't know better like the Israelites because they follow the hierarchy, prayer beads, symbolism- I think you have been mis-led. This IS Christ's church! In Luke 24 on the road to Emmaus the first thing Jesus did with the two apostles was mass! First the liturgy of the word showing them how all scripture points to Him, then the breaking of the bread. Which He was made known through- The "Marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev19).
I have to disagree with you on some of your points. There are many things not written
in the bible, that doesn't mean we can't do them but it also doesn't mean we should
do them.
But in respect of praying to dead saints, we do know the bible says there is one
mediator, which means there is no need for another mediator.
Re Rev 8 see my earlier post on this.
Re praying for deceased dead relatives the bible says it is
Hebrews 9:26-27 NKJV
[26] He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the
sacrifice of Himself. [27] And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after
this the judgment,
While I understand it can be painful to think thatbthose who have died
are judged there is no second chance after passing from this life.
I wasn't referring to Catholic priests sacrificing animals sorry if i gave this
impression, it was about priests standing in or acting on behalf of others. This is
no longer necessary the priesthood passed with the risen Lord who is our
great high priest.
Re pastors etc and their authority to preach, can I ask a question, by whose authority
was Paul allowed to speak and spread the gospel. By whose authority did Moses lead
the people. By whose authority did Saul then David become King etc. God makes His will
and His plans known. Granted there can and are false teachers that is why the bible says
to test all things. Which is what we are doing here
.
Ephesians 2:8,10 NKJV
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it
is the gift of God, [10] For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good
works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Origins of the Catholic church. Yes it is very old but it was not the first established church,
that would be the church recorded in Acts. I've chosen the following below as it makes a lot
of interesting points. Although as mentioned earlier I do think the Catholic Church is changing,
at least it is in my city and I don't think what it says does necessarily apply to every Catholic
in what they believe.
Do you mind if I ask you a question. Have you read the bible cover to cover and compared
it with the Catholic teachings. I don't mean reading certain parts while glossing over other
parts. I am thinking really reading it with fresh eyes and asking the Holy Spirit for understanding,
meditating on it, comparing passages seeing the Old Testement in the New Testement and
vice verse. Maybe you have? I just wondered as I have some family who are Catholic but they
never pick up a bible a read it for themselves. They rely on what they are taught. As do many
Christians I would add! I did myself when I was younger. It was only when I started to
read, really read it that I realised some of the things I had been told were not right. They were
not necessarily completely off the mark, but they weren't entirely right either.
Its easy to assume what others tell you is correct, but we all need to search and look for ourselves.
I would say that of any person by the way, of any denomination.
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection,
and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately AD 30. The Catholic Church proclaims
itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and
built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary.
Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church
does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament,
there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate
conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary
as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic
succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism,
confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church
tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings
of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin
of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire,
and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman
Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in
AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the
Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity
as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to
fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the
Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to
fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices,
so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and
Roman paganism.
Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse,
not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious beliefs to embrace Christianity. So,
Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely
pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples
of this are as follows:
(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by
replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of
Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was
given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order
to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis
were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology
occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal
point of Isis worship.
(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries AD. It was
very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the
religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the
Roman Empire, it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman
emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key features of Mithraism was a
sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the
god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted
salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is known as theophagy, the eating
of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism
and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found an easy
substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept of the Lord’s Supper/Christian
communion. Even before Constantine, some early Christians had begun to attach mysticism
to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance
of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition
to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.
(3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is one who believes
in the existence of many gods, but focuses primarily on one particular god or considers one
particular god supreme over the other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme
over the Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune, the god
of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman paganism, it simply replaced the
pantheon of gods with the saints. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a
god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church
has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other categories. Just as many
Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so the Catholic Church provided “patron saints”
for the cities.
(4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the
Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire,
and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets
of life. Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme
ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the government
and state religion be centralized. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea
of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due
to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the
popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus
Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the origin
of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its
beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated
theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign
to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.
The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions
that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic
Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences
and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the
Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the Roman
world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing
from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.
Second Timothy 4:3–4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say
what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to
myths.”
Recommended Resources: Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics by Ron Rhodes and
Logos Bible Software.
