The Holy Spirit convicts of sin

[PeterJens]

Okay.. I understand what you are trying to say.. But it isn't our job to point out sin but point people to the one who died for it.. The more we know our righteousness in him the less sin is.. dya know what I mean ?

The focus of sin is death.. The focus on Jesus is life and peace Bless u xx

You are trying to teach me and correct me. Are you doing what you are trying to teach me not to do?
You are also teaching something contrary to scripture.

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

Now I have confronted this "brother" with his sin, but he refuses to listen to me, and still calls me a liar. He repeatedly says I am not saved and need to repent. Now this thread is a testimony that he is not telling the truth and I am.

So I have done my duty, and I am commanded to treat him as an unbeliever.

Maybe you do not understand who your Lord actually is, and who you are commanded to follow. So I am happy to follow my Lord and His word, but unfortunately you are wrong and speaking against the Lords commands. If you are happy to walk in rebellion against His word, then you are in sin. If you do not repent, then I am commanded likewise to treat you as a unbeliever.

Now I am sorry if this sound hard, but spiritual authority is actually this blunt and straightforward. How long have you followed Jesus and not known this? There is never any compromise with real sin, though many imagine sin where there is none.

 

[PeterJens]

The world of sweetness and lets all be loving together

The world is a brutal place and sin leads to death. Do you say to a child, it is ok to walk into the street with cars, or drink bleach, or jump out of a window in a high building? But once you say behaviour does not matter, it is just looking gooey at Jesus, that is what you are doing.

Life has not become safe because we have so many safety nets in finance, medicine, families, entertainment, lack of war etc. It is just we live in an impossibly safe place in the world in a small window of rediculous privilege, yet the realities remain the same. It is so tempting to just keep people happy and not upset anyone. Welcome to the world of sin and death.

 

[Grace777x70]

BTW, don't hold it against some of these guys for the vile things they call me. Ten years ago, I would have been right beside them, throwing rocks at someone who said some of the things that I do.

They don't understand, and I understand that they can't, and won't, unless the Holy spirit leads them out of that same religious prison I was in. I certainly don't equate myself with Jesus, but He explained it well when He said, "They don't know what they are doing."

This is so true of all of us! It takes the renewing of the mind to be able to walk in the truth of the life of Christ inside of us. Religious strongholds in the mind can be the toughest creatures. They have the "appearance" of defending the faith! - But in reality all we are doing in real life is defending our church traditions.

SO, we feel justified in the way we attack others that dare challenge our religious upbringing beliefs which may in fact be not part of the "good news" at all....so we get ready to do this to those that have different understandings that conflict with our thoughts.

 

[Grace777x70]

I read many of them so please don't stop posting them! I understand some people don't read them but I do and so do other people. The verses and the context are both together and the message hasn't gotten lost in all the arguing that goes on here. I can get a good answer to one question at a time without them going off into 10 other questions that have not been answered to my satisfaction. So the different websites you post have helped me and given me a resource to re use when I'm not here on CC.

I agree. What I have observed here in the BDF is people just going back and forth bickering and there is usually nothing that happens that edifies each other. At least when an article that teaches us things can be read by those that are interested - then something good can happen to us.

Some people are master "rabbit trail" makers as can be seen in this thread and all that does is throw people off from discussing a subject from a viewpoint where we can grow in the Lord.

To some people the redefining or clarification of some biblical words can be disconcerting especially if it conflicts with our religious traditions and they can be offended and I understand that - it happens to me too.

Some people are as you can see even if I said that God loves us - they would be all over that to refute that truth. It just reveals what is really driving them so for the most part I ignore them - unless I can put up a scripture or a teaching that can help others to grow in the Lord.

Thank you for your encouragement in putting things up to help others and as I say - there have been many that have told me how the videos and articles have helped them in their walk with the Lord. So, I will continue to post what I feel led by the Lord to do despite the malice of others. I view it as a good sign!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I was repeating exactly what the passage reads, It is you doing your usual dance to make things come out the way you live.

You may believe you are still in the world, but I know that I am not.

I am still holding judgement until I read some more posts to see where this is going, But will comment here.

When you do not KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, you have no other choice but to think you are in the world..

Thats why eternal security/eternal life/osas/ whatever you want to call it is the root of christian life and means to spiritual maturity. Because you have to KNOW you are no longer of this world. but are set apart, and justified and are now strangers in a foreign land awaiting your commander in chief (God) to call you Home..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'd expect that kind of statement to come from a patient in a mental ward.

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. John 17:15​

Wow dude,

This is jesus saying do not remove them from the world. because I have work for them to do. It does not mean we are part of this world..

Your attitude is really Christlike.. Do you even know how to discuss anything without making childish remarks, like calling someone mental??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. *And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;*For whom the Lord loves He chastens,And scourges every son whom He receives.”*If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? *But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. *Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? *For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. *Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12:4-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews12:4-11&version=NIV

Amen sis, this is a passage I was going to bring up.

However, Chastening (discipline) is not the same as conviction. which is the title of this op. They are two different terms.. WHich is why I was going to wait to see where this thread led

The Lord chastens who he loved.. He does not chasten an unbeliever, he convicts and unbeliever.

Lets see hw many open minds we have here, if it is continues as you say, and turns into a heated baytytle (which it already has started to look like that)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sin is defined as not believing into Christ. So when we (believers) are not believing into Christ (walking in the flesh), we are sinning and the holy spirit convicts us.

So if I am angry because someone cut me off, and I am in a spout of road rage, I am an unbeliever at that time?

Really??

 

[PeterJens]

But in reality all we are doing in real life is defending our church traditions.

This is a lie. The church stands on its understanding of Jesus, the word of God and their spiritual experience.
The slander is not people have different interpretations, but they are deceived and evil, hypocrites, lost souls, without any reality of understanding.

I have listened to buddhists, and muslims and they all sound convincing, sincere in their hearts with their version of life and reality. It all depends on some base assumptions. And these assumptions have their foundation in faith. As with all assumptions they are mutually exclusive.

Hyper-grace has its assumptions also. If the followers refuse to look at the assumptions and test them, they are not standing on truth or reality. Their reality is righteousness built only on how God looks at us, not on establishing right behaviour in the individual.

The objection all traditional believers have with this group is they deny basic christian beliefs which change their faith into another. I am fine if they are honest enough to admit this, but to call me evil, a pharisee, hypocrite, legalist, just because I do not agree with their faith position is sinful behaviour and not just and true.

There justification is saying the gospel is different than their version is witch-craft, adultery etc. So sin becomes a capital offence not to believe like them. Today in 2016 do you know who believes like this - ISIS. And they murder in justice because that is doing Gods will. Paul as Saul did the same thing.

The joke goes deeper, they turn the argument around and say we are the murderers etc when we are not murdering or sinning against anyone, and are actually open to conviction of sin and walking in righteousness.

And the reason they do this all? They hate the way they did faith before, and will do anything not to return there.
I found the same thing among many muslims. Even if they were wrong they would never come to Christ, they hated it so much. I mean how do you become an enemy of God while appearing to be His friend?

 

[Grace777x70]

I am still holding judgement until I read some more posts to see where this is going, But will comment here.

When you do not KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, you have no other choice but to think you are in the world..

Thats why eternal security/eternal life/osas/ whatever you want to call it is the root of christian life and means to spiritual maturity. Because you have to KNOW you are no longer of this world. but are set apart, and justified and are now strangers in a foreign land awaiting your commander in chief (God) to call you Home..

I agree EG,

With "security" comes "maturity" as it does in any relationship.

When I see people posting that Christ has not given us His righteousness - it reveals to me that they really don't know the gospel yet. They obviously cannot see the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. They obviously cannot see that we are in fact in Christ. Paul talks about being in Christ 140x times in his writings.

One poster here that denies we are the righteousness of God because we are in Christ told me 2 weeks ago that he does not consider anyone born again until they have the new body that is to be given us. This reveals the mindset that has no revelation of the new birth in Christ in our inner man. It's no wonder people that believe like this must do things to "maintain" their righteousness and it is NOT the gospel.

When I hear statements like that - it makes me wonder if they really are in Christ - but only the Lord knows the hearts and He can make that determination.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is an article from the Paul Ellis that the OP mentioned .

How Does the Holy Spirit Convict Us?

Through the law,” says the mixed-grace preacher. “It is by God’s law that we are convicted. When you sin, the Holy Spirit will remind you of God’s holy commands and show you the way to go.”

The Bible says you are not under law, but grace. But if we get rid of the law, how will we know how to please the Lord? How will the Holy Spirit set us on the straight and narrow? Or to use a recent example I read on Charisma News, how will we know it’s a bad idea to steal from Walmart?

The mixed-grace preacher says the law shows us the way of life. Yet the hyper-grace preacher Paul said the law ministers death (2 Cor. 3:7). Something doesn’t add up.

The mixed-grace preacher describes the Holy Spirit as a Spirit of law, but the writer of Hebrews said he is the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29). Again, something doesn’t add up.

I have heard people say they were convicted of sin while reading the law and that this caused them to run to God in repentance. These experiences testify to the true ministry of the law—it helps us recognize sin and our need for grace. But the law is not the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Grace does not minister to you through the law.

The ministry that brought death, … was engraved in letters on stone… If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! (2 Cor 3:7-9)

Look into the mirror of the law and you will feel condemned, every time. That’s what the law does. It points out your faults and failings. But that is not what the Holy Spirit does. That is not the more glorious ministry that brings righteousness.

When you sin it takes no faith to look into the mirror of the law and agree that you made a mess. It takes faith to listen to the Holy Spirit and agree that in Christ you are as righteous and holy as he is! This is the good news that turns sinners into saints. This is the startling revelation that empowers you to go and sin no more.

How does the Spirit of grace convict us?

A law-conscious preacher will define conviction (elegcho in John 16:8) as fault-finding and rebuke. But an interpretation of conviction which is more consistent with the Holy Spirit’s gracious character is expose, or bring into the light. (More here.)

How does the Holy Spirit convict us? He does it by turning on the lights, not to shame you (Jesus carried your shame), but to show you the way to life. Ian Thomas describes it like this:

The Holy Spirit is like a man with a lamp entering a dark and dirty room, and what you have learned to live with in the dark becomes repugnant in the light.

Think of Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3). By his own account he was chief of sinners. Then the lights went on and he became a different man.

I have written elsewhere about the need for a new covenant definition of conviction, one that does not emphasize your badness but God’s goodness and grace.

But the simple fact is the Holy Spirit will never convict you of your sin. When you sin, your conscience may condemn you, the law will condemn you, the judge and jury may condemn you, the religious may condemn you, and the devil will certainly condemn you, but against the chorus of condemners stands the sweet Holy Spirit who defends you and draws you to grace.

The Holy Spirit’s conviction has nothing to do with your sin and everything to do with God’s grace. It’s not about the bad thing you’ve done but the good thing he wants to do in you right now.


https://escapetoreality.org/2014/09/25/how-the-holy-spirit-convicts/

This makes sense, Taking us from the law which condemns, to the law of love, It shows us how to love others, And tries to remove our focus of self. and on to others.. It is sort of like trying to show someone who made a wrong turn, not his mistake (he alread knew his mistake( but the correct action he should have taken.

Sort of like my road rage example. The Holy Spirit would not show me my sin (I already KNOW its sin) he will show me the way I should have acted (which in my experience, is most times worse than exposing my sin, It shows how still self centered I can be)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

uh, yeah. That is unless you have perfect faith.

Then you just condemned everyone to hell, NO ONE will get to heaven, Because no one has perfect faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christians are believers in Jesus Christ.

True christians are yes.. There are many who have yet to repent and placed their trust and assurance (faith) in Christ.. They are still trusting in self. They have a form of godliness, But deny his power.

I think some true inner belief systems are being exposed here.

 

[JennaLeanne]

You are trying to teach me and correct me. Are you doing what you are trying to teach me not to do?
You are also teaching something contrary to scripture.

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

Now I have confronted this "brother" with his sin, but he refuses to listen to me, and still calls me a liar. He repeatedly says I am not saved and need to repent. Now this thread is a testimony that he is not telling the truth and I am.

So I have done my duty, and I am commanded to treat him as an unbeliever.

Maybe you do not understand who your Lord actually is, and who you are commanded to follow. So I am happy to follow my Lord and His word, but unfortunately you are wrong and speaking against the Lords commands. If you are happy to walk in rebellion against His word, then you are in sin. If you do not repent, then I am commanded likewise to treat you as a unbeliever.

Now I am sorry if this sound hard, but spiritual authority is actually this blunt and straightforward. How long have you followed Jesus and not known this? There is never any compromise with real sin, though many imagine sin where there is none.

No.. I'm not trying to teach or correct you.. Read the message in the spirit it is written in.. I asked questions.. I didn't force my view which is what you do.. The spirit of Christ is love... Who are u to say someone isn't a believer ? That's crazy! And dangerous... You sound as though u very much have it all together and no one else has a clue.. If u read back u will see that no one else has been so directive and abusive as u have Peter

 

[Grace777x70]

This makes sense, Taking us from the law which condemns, to the law of love, It shows us how to love others, And tries to remove our focus of self. and on to others.. It is sort of like trying to show someone who made a wrong turn, not his mistake (he alread knew his mistake( but the correct action he should have taken.

Sort of like my road rage example. The Holy Spirit would not show me my sin (I already KNOW its sin) he will show me the way I should have acted (which in my experience, is most times worse than exposing my sin, It shows how still self centered I can be)

Amen EG...the Holy Spirit leads us to what Christ has done for us. That's His job - to reveal the things of Jesus to us.

We have been told religious things so much that it becomes part of who we are and in fact sometimes those beliefs can be anti-the gospel and anti-the cross and resurrection.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sounds like a shell game Grace.

It's not condemning to point out sin....it's condemning to say you are going to be punished and are inherently bad.

Pointing out sin is convicting someone. The Holy Spirit DOES convict people.

Personally I find the preacher too sugar coated for my tastes and would wonder if he is offer me sugar coated dung...but since I don't know him and can't ask him to clarify, I would just avoid his sermons and website.

so instead you think we should get all legalistic? (I am just asking, please do not take this personally)

The legalist will push and push and push until someone hides his sin he is struggling with, or walks away from God altogether. ( I have witnessed it countless times) Where as the grace oriented church will be explaining to th eperson WHY he needs ot change, and how much bnetter it will be, and try to get to the root of the issue, not harp on the sin itself..

Why does God have to convince a drunk, who knows dringking is bad, He should not drink. Thats like me trying to scream at a man who has a doctorate degree in mathematics that 2 times 2 is 4. He already knows it.

Its like saying we need to repent of the same sin over and over and over,, When we already KNOW it is a sin..

That makes no sense at all.

 

[PeterJens]

I am still holding judgement until I read some more posts to see where this is going, But will comment here.

EG - this thread proves I am right about hyper-grace and am not lying. Will you admit this or are you just a hypocrite lost in your own self justifications. I have my integrity, honesty and openness, but you are a twisted individual with a simple agenda, 100% convinced of your calling and mission. This is what I call pride, to the heights, where you believe you know and are untouchable.

I know this does not end nicely for you, because your faith is built on sand.

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.
Matt 7:26-27


I know what these words mean and their reality when people fall apart. You will survive for a time lying to yourself, but in the end judgement will fall by the reality of your foundations washing away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But are all "believers" believing into Christ at every moment? The commandment is to believe into Christ, not just have some idea in the head that he has done this and that.

Uh Yeah, In the term believe, A believer does not sit there and dasy, Ok I do not believe in christ anymore, I am going to go sin, Oh wait, I changed my mind (repent) I believe in Christ, so I am not going to sin, Oh Wait, I do not believe, so I am going to go sin again, Well shoot. I change my mind again, I believe in Christ..........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a vital part of it for me.
Because of what Christ has done, there is now no condemnation for me.
IF I had the fear of condemnation, I would not be able to come boldly to Him for the help I need.
I would be too busy trying to hide everything my heart does because of my fear instead of boldly admitting it to Him.
Even Adam said, I WAS AFRAID, so I hid.
Because of not having to fear the penalty of my sins (I did it lynn - I said "my" ) I am not afraid like Adam and I run TO God, not away from Him.
He can't help me when I hide, cover up, and run away. I have to walk in the truth about myself.

Amen.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”



2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

 

[gb9]

No.. I'm not trying to teach or correct you.. Read the message in the spirit it is written in.. I asked questions.. I didn't force my view which is what you do.. The spirit of Christ is love... Who are u to say someone isn't a believer ? That's crazy! And dangerous... You sound as though u very much have it all together and no one else has a clue.. If u read back u will see that no one else has been so directive and abusive as u have Peter

peter thinks that we are to stand over each other in judgement. he basically told me that a few days ago in another thread. until he repents of this " morally superior" attitude, there is no point in trying to tell him anything.