Whats the deal with Catholics?

[Bestil_Andno]

The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that:
"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments , and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned.

Enough said.

Hi Mike. Not quite enough said. The Church will protect the faithful against faulty translations. Think of it this way. Most any Christian denomination today would probably warn and some might even forbid their people from reading the New World Translation because of it's many errors. Same thing.

Also, I did a little digging....found this....not sure how accurate it is but between the two of us....there should be more research done on the topic, probably.....

There was no Council of Tarragona in 1234. There was a provincial council in 1242 to deal with the details of the Inquisition. Presuming the author simply got the year wrong, I do know the history of this area and time in a general way. Muslim Moors, who had recently been ejected from this region, had produced doctored versions of the Bible, much like the Albgensians had done in France. This was done to support the view that it was Ishmael, not Issac, who Abraham blessed, that Jesus was not crucified and that another even greater prophet would follow Jesus. Many many copies of these false scriptures had been spread throughout the land during the Moorish occupation of Spain.

Seems like a good reason to make sure people had legitimate copies of the scriptures....even though who knows how many there actually were....being pre-printing press time here.

Peace

 

[Bestil_Andno]

I guess it would depend on what church you are going to. Are they teaching the truth or are they teaching doctrines of devils. The truth comes from the Word of God, do not forget before it was written it was spoken. The writers in the bible penned Gods Word as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. If any church is not teaching things that are in the bible, I advise you run and run fast.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We were given the bible to study so we can show ourselves approved.

Hi redeemed,

First, the part I bolded above is not taught in the Bible. Doesn't that make it your tradition?

Also, isn't what you are really saying is "If any church is not teaching things that are in the Bible, as I interpret them?

Everybody agrees that the Bible is authoritative. I think what everyone disagrees on is which interpretation is correct.

God bless.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Its written in the bible to be baptised in the name of Jesus.. not the trinity the catholic church created.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”.

The body of Christ are all TRUE believers.

Hi Demi.

Mind if I interject? Curious about how you would square up Acts 2:38 with Matthew 28:19 where Jesus says, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Thanks.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

When you build a faith on necromancy you make the bible say anything you want. The scripture does not say the church as that seen is the pillar and foundation of absolute truth .

Every-time the Catholics offer their opinion in respect to the pillar and ground they leave out "the living God" out the that equalization.

As the house of God is modified by the word church . The words living God is modified by the pillar and ground to truth .

Both are of God. The church did not build itself. so it cannot be of itself. Its the revealed will of God in respect to his faith that the gates of hell could never prevail against not the things of men (necromancy)

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, "the" pillar and ground of the truth.

Hi garee.

I agree. But the point remains the same. That the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of the Truth. It doesn't say the Bible is the pillar and ground of the Truth. Shoot, They didn't even have a New Testament. Christ left a Church. And He left it with His authority. I think that is the point.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

It's interesting how all these Catholic conversations go around in full
circle. The same points are now been raised as stated and answered in the
earlier pages.

Nothing new is been asked or stated.

Catholics are not really giving any supporting verses. This suggests they are following
man made traditions and rules, though many of us do to a certain degree about all sorts of
things. The question which has to be asked though now, is if those man made rules
and traditions are contrary to the bible, then what action will be taken?

Biggiest one I can think of is about one mediator etc, the verse has been mentioned
several times on this thread.

So maybe for now the Catholics responding could think about how they reconcile praying to
dead saints and praying to Mary in light of this verse. Maybe you can point out this verse
to your own priest and ask them what they think and ask why, in light of this verse,
are Catholics told that it is ok to prayer to Mary and dead saints and where did this
tradition come from It would be interesting to know the official answer.


1 Timothy 2:1-6 NKJV
[1] Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving
of thanks be made for all men, [2] for kings and all who are in authority, that we may
lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all
men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God
and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave Himself
a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Hi Miri.

I'm gonna leave this thread, cause, yeah, it's very interesting but I am wiped out and gonna be off line for quite awhile.
I'm sorry, I do not know which posts I've done that answer your very question above...but I have answered with scripture.

Here's my main question for you: In 1 Timothy 2:1-3 which you quoted above....Christians are told to pray for all men and that that is good and acceptable to God.

How is that not mediating? I don't get it. That is mediating for others. It is NOT mediating in the same sense that Jesus does. His "mediatorship" is par excellance. Ours is like being mini-mediators through Him....but it is still mediating, right? Every time we pray for somebody or even share the Gospel we are being a mini-mediator for Christ, right?

So Christians are told to pray for each other, we are told we are all connected to the One Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12), we are told that death does not separate us from Christ and so not from each other since we are all connected through Him (Romans 6, I believe), we are told that those who die in relationship with Christ are alive (I am the God of the living, not the dead (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) Matthew somewhere) so the saints aren't dead, Hebrews tells us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (so the spiritual realm is very close), .....nowhere are we told that we only pray for each other while on earth but stop it after we die, love would prevent us from stopping to pray for others when we die, Paul says in 1 Cor. 12 that one part of the Body of Christ cannot say to another part "I don't need you" (that could mean Christians on earth and Christians in Heaven), we know all contact with departed ones isn't necromancy because Jesus talked to Moses at His Transfiguration and He can't sin.....so....

.....why wouldn't we ask Christians to pray for us, whether they are in Heaven or on Earth? I bet those in Heaven have more powerful prayers because they are unencumbered by the things of this world and love more perfectly.

God bless you.

I gotta go for awhile.

 

[AllenW]

If we pray to someone else, then we take our eyes off of Jesus.
If we take ourselves away from him, we are no longer connected to him.
We are told to pray to him, and we can grab hold of others and pray for them too as we pray to Jesus.
This is how we love one another.
Nothing in Scripture tells us to put Jesus to one side and pray to a human being instead.
Nor does Scripture tell us to bypass Jesus and pray directly to God the Father.
That is a clear misunderstanding.
Anything to get people to take their eyes off of Jesus.
We need to focus on him as it is he who gives us our salvation and our life every day.

 

[garee]

Hi garee.

I agree. But the point remains the same. That the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of the Truth. It doesn't say the Bible is the pillar and ground of the Truth. Shoot, They didn't even have a New Testament. Christ left a Church. And He left it with His authority. I think that is the point.
Peace.

It does not say that the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of the Truth. What it does say as the scriptures infallibly informs the church and not the church infallibly informing the church. But God, the Potter loosening His will from heaven binding it on earth he reveals His instructions as to how Christians his children are behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, "because he is the " pillar and ground of the truth. Not because they are the pillar and foundation of truth.

Christian's (everyone" have the treasure of His authority in them, seeing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to God . But clearly that authority is not of us if it is of God. Can't serve two masters.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and "not" of us.

No other foundation can be laid or impossible to be laid seeing no man can serve that which is framed (the church)as the master and he who frames it as master. For they will hate one and love the other or love the one and hate the other. No man can serves two masters as Lord.

The fact that the Catholics make the fathers venerable a form of worship, shows which one is their master. We are the hallow by venerating God alone .He alone is venerable
It would seem as did the apostate Jew in respect to apostate Judaism simply turned things upside down so does the Catholic denomination.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

And it does not matter when the scriptures was penned or how many books. His word is law whether we have it in part or the whole deposit. (Genesis through Revelation) Today we have the perfect . There are no new revelations being loosened from heaven .

 

[Demi777]

Hi Demi.

Mind if I interject? Curious about how you would square up Acts 2:38 with Matthew 28:19 where Jesus says, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Thanks.

Maybe your catholic bible says that. None of the bibles that I know say it.. how come yours does??
New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Study Bible
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
And Peter says to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

New American Standard 1977
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

 

[FlSnookman7]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 28:19
[/TD]
[TD]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[PaulMack]

We True Christians need to understand when we are talking to a Catholic we are talking to a person who has not be Born Again.

How can we expect them to understand what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures if they do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What is interesting is back in the Crusades when people fought for the Catholic Church, the Pope would sprinkle water on the people declaring that now they were Christians. There was no accepting Jesus it was all about the Pope giving these people Salvation from the Catholic Church.

This is how people in the Catholic Church today view Salvation. They actually believe Salvation is received by being a member of the Catholic Church. Also they taught if you were kicked out of the Catholic Church you also lost your Salvation.

This is how the Catholic Church keeps a stranglehold on their people.

Martin Luther was excommunicated in 1521 for teaching we live by Faith.

Anytime anyone goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church they are threatened with being excommunicated.

Who gave the Catholic Church the Power and Authority to take away someone's Salvation? God never gave the Catholic Church the Authority. It was Satan who gave this authority to the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church today has walked away from God to become a god.

 

[FlSnookman7]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 28:19[/TD]
[TD]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

That is the version in my KJV bible of Matthew 28:19.

 

[FlSnookman7]

I must say, though I wont be converting to catholicism anytime soon, whoever this Bestil_Andno is he/she has just dominated this thread. While those attempting to refute him/her use personal attacks he/she has used logic and scripture. I think if one is going to refute the rcc there are better topics to try and use. Infant baptism, confession before a priest (though I know the answer to that one) and ex-communication (not an entirely accurate answer was given) are a few major issues I have with the rcc. Anyway, well done Bestil_Andno, a wonderful display of logic driven arguing, though we disagree.

 

[valiant]

Hi garee.

I agree. But the point remains the same. That the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of the Truth. It doesn't say the Bible is the pillar and ground of the Truth. Shoot, They didn't even have a New Testament. Christ left a Church. And He left it with His authority. I think that is the point.

Peace.

the apostolic church, yes, for they were guided by the Apostles. But not an eight century hierarchical church which had long before wandered from Apostolic doctrine,

 

[Budman]

I must say, though I wont be converting to catholicism anytime soon, whoever this Bestil_Andno is he/she has just dominated this thread. While those attempting to refute him/her use personal attacks he/she has used logic and scripture. I think if one is going to refute the rcc there are better topics to try and use. Infant baptism, confession before a priest (though I know the answer to that one) and ex-communication (not an entirely accurate answer was given) are a few major issues I have with the rcc. Anyway, well done Bestil_Andno, a wonderful display of logic driven arguing, though we disagree.

Then you must have been skipping over Valiant's posts. He's refuted Bestil's best at every turn.

 

[PaulMack]

Romans 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

ALL have sinned, ALL are sinners, and ALL includes Mary.

Therefore Mary was born a sinner and died a sinner. This proves the Doctrine of Mary being born sinless and blameless is a false doctrine used by the Catholic Church to justify their worship of Mary.

 

[valiant]

"LOL" it reads " the prayers of the saints." means the saints pray.

LOL LOL LOL you show your ignorance, when the bible says Saints it means Christians alive on this earth.

 

[PaulMack]

Most Catholics i have meet are very ignorant as to what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures.

 

[Budman]

Most Catholics i have meet are very ignorant as to what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures.

Well, they are discouraged from reading the Bible because only the "magisterium" can interpret what the Scriptures say. One of the main reasons why many former Catholics leave the RCC, is because they started reading the Bible for themselves, and saw first hand how Catholicism contradicts the Scriptures.

 

[Miri]

You may not have realised this but if you have been spiritually born again in
Christ. You are a saint there is therefore no need to pray to saints as they cannot
answer your prayers. They are just people like you and me, some of us are still in the
body on planet earth, some are absent from the body.

This won't paste very well or in its entirety but see the following link.

90 Bible verses about Saints

Bump........

 

[Miri]

Praying for each other is good, there is a prayer ministry in my church and lots of
prayer groups. Sometimes we also do what we did this morning and part way through the
service we broke off to pray with the people sat around us.

Matthew 18:19-20 NKJV
[19] "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask,
it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered
together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."



It's good to lift the needs of each other up in prayer.


Were you referring to this or did you have in mind something else?

I think the issue people have is the concept of praying to dead saints (dead Christians)
who cannot intercede and pray for us, Mary included.

Bump......