CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE

PeterJens · Jun 23, 2016

Got to say this is obvious and plain "We believe what we believe is the truth" wow - I never thought what you thought was true you thought was true.

I understand you agree with every positive affirmation and do not like defining what you actually hold to because then you could be wrong. This is creating a plastercine theology which for me is useless.

My theology is founded on a simple concept. Behaviour and relationship responsibility is His heart, the good samaritan, the prodigal son. Realisation by the individual and getting things right is His method of blessing. So believers are empowered to live this out, change their hearts, get things straight, yet when I say this I am your enemy and not spiritual.

I listen to God and His word above mans. I have shared this 100's of times, yet you seem blind to Gods word. I wonder why? Must be your emotional history, because it is not you do not understand this. Maybe it is all too cruel and all too much self effort for you. But hey I know lost souls are blind to their own darkness, as the Lord says. Many have come to you with the gospel but why does it fail? The two lenses?

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

We are to work out what is already in us in Christ in the inner man - created in righteousness and holiness. Phil 2:12-13 speaks of this too.

Colossians 2:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

you have been made complete = perfect passive = it's a done deal from a past event that is continuous in the present and it has been done to you - we are not doing it.

Remember that Paul said earlier in this chapter...

Colossians 2:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.

..that he was saying these things to keep the Colossians from being deceived. Recognition of our completeness in Christ is a tremendous safeguard against deception. Prior to salvation, we are incomplete, and there is a constant striving in all of us to satisfy that hunger.

Through the new birth, however, we are complete in Christ, and our hunger should only be for more revelation of what we already have in Christ. Total satisfaction with Christ disarms Satan’s lies.

gb9 · Jun 23, 2016

PeterJens said:

you are correct in that we are not that apart in theology. we agree that Christ saves us.

but here is the massive difference: grace7., myself, and others believe ( correctly) that Christ 100% saves, it is all him, not us. we accept his free gift, then strive to be more like him, be on guard against sin, etc.

you and others seem to believe ( incorrectly ) that it is joint effort between you and Christ, that He offers salvation, but you have to " do your part " to earn or keep it, thus nullifying it as a gift.

belief leads to behavior, not the other way around. God through Christ saves you, period. nothing to do with you. you respond to salvation by good works.

PeterJens · Jun 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

This summarises the sting in the tail of your gospel. The battle is no longer about righteousness and sin, but are you for or against the revelation of the teachers who preach this message of hyper-grace. And those who say the focus is wrong, on the wrong things, swallowing the camel of sin, while straining at the knat of doctrine and calling righteous people satan's liars.

Now being light in darkness is about righteousness and love, that this has ultimate real value.

I do not know how many times I have to repeat this, but sin is evil and needs to stop. You know something is wrong when people say oh that sin is easy to avoid, it is all this stuff over here which God never laid out, but that is impossible, so we can ignore the real issues we cannot deal with. That is always how you spot hypocracy and distraction.

I mean why be faithful in marriage, honest in business transactions, truthful about what you preach etc. Just come to the praise meetings and it will just happen by itself...

ladylynn · Jun 23, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Sounds like if you could., you might blame all the wars from all the ages on those "hyper grace people"
I'd say all of your "doctrine" will fall apart if you actually listened to what the people here who post to you really are saying and not the things you "think" they are saying. It's an "art" to learn how to actually become a good listener.

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

Romans 6:1-14 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

[SUP]2 [/SUP] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

ukok102nak · Jun 23, 2016

the title of this thread seems to
live on its reputation
:read:
The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
45*""Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master appointed over his household, to give them food in due season?"
46*"Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing."
47*"Assuredly I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his possessions."
48*"But if that evil servant should say in his heart, 'My master is delaying to come,'"
49*""and should begin to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,"
50*"the master of that servant will come on a day which he does not expect, and in an hour which he does not know,"

... . those evil things laugh while some of
our said trusted disciples of the word of truth were
arguing with each other
:read:
The Disciples Argue About Greatness
24*And there became also a dispute among them, as to which of them seemed to be greater.
25*But He said to them, ""The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.'"
26*"But you shall not be thus; but let the greatest among you, let him be as the youngest, and he who leads as he who serves."
27*"For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."

. ... and lucky for them they will sit on thrones
judging the twelve tribes of israel
:read:
28*"Now you are those who have remained with Me in My trials."
29*"And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me,"
30*"so that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.""

:ty:

godbless us all always

Angela53510 · Jun 23, 2016

Cee said:

I guess the thing I take issue with is the use of the term "self awareness." For one thing it is not Biblical. It is not found in the Bible. Before I was saved, I was in the New Age Movement, and this was a favourite "buzz" word for people. It didn't seem to matter which guru people followed, whether they believed in a god or not, it was always this quest to develop "self awareness."
That is why it has triggered me so much. I looked at a few websites on self awareness, and there was never a single word about God, about Christ, about serving him and following him with all our hearts. Instead, it was all about finding happiness, getting ride of pain by various techniques.

Here are three quotes from various websites about "self awareness" It is not a Christian doctrine, it is based on philosophy and a desire to improve the self. The Christian walk is about transformation by God and renewing the mind. It is NEVER about self awareness. And some of this might even sound tempting or logical, but it is not Biblical!

"Self Awareness is having a clear perception of your personality, including strengths, weaknesses, thoughts, beliefs, motivation, and emotions. Self Awareness allows you to understand other people, how they perceive you, your attitude and your responses to them in the moment."

Self Awareness

"And there’s the crux of searching for self-awareness: Do we embrace the “ignorance is bliss” adage when a bright light shines on our flaws? Do we simply escape the reality of who are and let the tides of the day carry us adrift? Or we do face ourselves and move onward towards a path that allows us to reinvent ourselves to embrace our best, truest selves, regardless of how painful it may be at times? "

Why Self-Awareness Is the Secret Weapon for Habit Change - 99U

"Self-awareness (sometimes also referred to as self-knowledge or introspection) is about understanding your own needs, desires, failings, habits, and everything else that makes you tick. The more you know about yourself, the better you are at adapting life changes that suit your needs.Of course, self-awareness is a big part of both therapy and philosophy. It's also the basis of the quantified self movement , which assumes that if you collect data about yourself you can make improvements based on that data."

The Importance of Self-Awareness, and How to Become More Self Aware

So yes, I agree we need to focus on Christ. Always! But that is something totally different than self-awareness, which puts the emphasis on self and not God.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 23, 2016

gb9 said:

I don't see how the bolded parts in paragraphs 2 & 3 are incompatible or different. The bolded in paragraph 4 I agree with wholeheartedly, but the underlined item contradicts it. If we are doing, then we are a part of the process.

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

I agree with Angela that "self-awareness" is an incomplete term within itself, which some could get a mis-understanding from. if it is not properly defined.

I think a better term would be "Christ-awareness" inside of us. The mystery of the gospel is Christ in us.

Colossians 1:27-29 (KJV)
[SUP]27[/SUP] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

[SUP]28 [/SUP] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]29 [/SUP] Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

ladylynn · Jun 23, 2016

Hi Angela., Just a thought on that subject., people can take something that is true and mix it in with humanism. For instance., human behavior follows a pattern because we as humans come with human tendencies. Our human ness is not sinful it just 'is' who we are .....human. Made in the image of God.

We humans are self aware because God made us that way. We relate to God that way too. He trains us as believers to be aware of Him in relation to our own self awareness. He doesn't take away our personhood. He is the One who made us who we are. Sin corrupted us but what God made (human) He said was very good.

It is our responsibility to love God's way. Human love that follows God's way is right. God gave us the hand book on how to love as humans who are born again. God gave us the capacity to experience pleasure and there are many ways to be Godly and human too. Eating a fabulous meal and having a scrumptious desert with coffee is humanly experiencing pleasure that is also God pleasing too. All good things come from Him.

There are maaaaaany other pleasures God gives us humans to enjoy (like intimacy in marriage) that have been made specifically for our human bodies. These are not sinful. It's only when sin comes in and distorts these things that they become sinful. Being self aware is a very good thing and what God uses to train us about the differences between putting Him first or ourselves.

Being self aware in the proper way is a major blessing. All things are lawful but not all things are beneficial. It's learning the differences in our humanness. God does not take away our humanity. And it is not wrong to know human behavior. As Christians we have the "owners manual" on how to use the bodies given to us. Self awareness is not a bad word because it was high jacked by the new age movement.

Angela53510 · Jun 23, 2016

ladylynn said:

Yes, but.......

Gnosticism, the basis of the New Age Movement, is actually referred to in the Bible. We are warned to stay away from such things. (Ephesus was one of the hot beds of Gnosticism, which spread to Galatia, also in Asia Minor)

"O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you." 1 Tim. 6:20-21

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-9

So what is Gnosticism?

"Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge."

Gnosticism | Theopedia

And what is self-knowledge? Another word for it is self-awareness! Self awareness is a bad word, because it is anti-Biblical. My recounting some of my adventures in the New Age Movement are merely to show that it is so easy to be led astray by things which sound wonderful at first. And that God got me out of those lies and heresies, and gave me a new heart to serve him.

What is Gnosticism?

"Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

To discredit the idea of any compatibility between Christianity and Gnosticism, one has only to compare their teachings on the main doctrines of the faith. On the matter of salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. Although they claim to follow Jesus Christ and His original teachings, Gnostics contradict Him at every turn. Jesus said nothing about salvation through knowledge, but by faith in Him as Savior from sin. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Furthermore, the salvation Christ offers is free and available to everyone (John 3:16), not just a select few who have acquired a special revelation."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

Obviously there is a right "knowledge" and we are told that we can "know" the things associated with salvation. Gnosticism has nothing to do with "knowing" Christ and knowing that we are children of God. That we are new creations in Christ. It all has to do with Christ and what He has already done for us and we can know the things freely given to us by God and walk in assurance in the knowledge of the Lord and of His great love for us.

Knowledge and knowing are not bad terms.

I could fill this post up with scripture that talks about us growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord and that there are a lot of things for us to know.

One big one is Romans 6:6 .."knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Christ."...and that "Col. 3:3 "we have died and out life is hidden in Christ in God".

ukok102nak · Jun 23, 2016

as it is written
:read:
Job 11:4
For you say, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in God's eyes.
5*But oh, that God would speak
****and open his lips to you,
6*and that he would tell you the secrets of wisdom!
****For he is manifold in h understanding.1
Know then that God i exacts of you less than your guilt deserves.
7*j Can you find out the deep things of God?
****Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?
8*It is k higher than heaven1 —what can you do?

... . please continue to
:read:
Job 13:7
Will you speak unrighteously for God, and talk deceitfully for him?
8*Will you show partiality to him?
****Will you contend for God?
9*Is it good that he should search you out?
****Or as one deceives a man, will you deceive him?
10*He will surely reprove you
****if you secretly show partiality.
11*Shall not his majesty make you afraid,
****And his dread fall on you?

:ty:

godbless us all always

BenFTW · Jun 23, 2016

Angela53510 said:

It looks to me like a tactic of the devil to make a counterfeit to pollute the image of the reality. Think of palm readers, and tarot card readers attempting to give prophecy. The problem with comparing hyper-grace theology and Gnosticism is that they aren't saying the same thing. Gnosticism, as you quoted, believes that anything done in the flesh is inherently sinful but because they are spirit beings it doesn't taint their purity. This is false, obviously, as Adam and Eve reveal in the fall of mankind through their disobedience.

I've heard people pick up these new age concepts, especially self-awareness. They think they are "one with the universe" and that they are actually "gods." VVaking up their "inner divinity." All in all, in doing so they contradict the truth that there is one true God, and have made of man, many gods.

This is not what hyper-grace theology is putting forth. The self-awareness that is being presented is not one of self-sufficiency but God given (by grace) efficiency. It is coming into awareness of who you are in Jesus Christ. VVhat has happened to us, once born-again, made new creations? Are we slaves to sin or slaves of righteousness? Are we dead to sin, and alive unto God? Shall we walk holy as He is holy? Can we? All of these questions are summed up in the reality of us partaking in Christ's death and resurrection. The awareness part of all of this, is very practical. Find the answers to these questions, and learn who you are in Jesus Christ. Then, walk it out as God sanctifies you in helping you to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (your firm foundation).

Just because the enemy makes a counterfeit of the truth does not mean that any similarity ought to be avoided. If we do that, the devil wins on hindering the body of Christ from sanctification, and in walking in the reality of the Kingdom. VVe must be careful that we are walking in the truth, and if there is a counterfeit find the reality in God's Kingdom.

God4me · Jun 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

If all our sins have been forgiven, why is Jesus pleading our case when we do sin.
1 Jn 1: 8--10-- 1 Jn 2: 1--2.

You can believe your own wrong beliefs, but I will believe the Bible.

BenFTW · Jun 23, 2016

God4me said:

Because we have the accuser of the brethren defaming us and Jesus is our defense(I.e; Advocate).

God4me · Jun 23, 2016

JennaLeanne said:

There's a difference between being a believer and being a Christian, as a Christian is one who is just like Jesus.
And that's the reason why believers were first called Christians.

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

Originally Posted by God4me

If all our sins have been forgiven, why is Jesus pleading our case when we do sin.
1 Jn 1: 8--10-- 1 Jn 2: 1--2.

You can believe your own wrong beliefs, but I will believe the Bible.

BenFTW said:

Amen....Jesus says "I purchased them with My blood and their sins are forgiven"....this makes us want to live holier lives then ever. He who has been forgiven much - loves much.

We love the Lord Jesus for what He has done for us! The true knowledge that our sins have been forgiven makes us want to be who we are in Christ - new creations - created in righteousness and holiness.

When I finally saw that all my sins were forgiven in Christ - my life changed dramatically and my love for the things of the Lord increased to a never ending astonishment of what He has done for us because of His great love.

Grasping this grace of Christ spiritually releases the empowering aspect of grace to take effect in our lives.

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 23, 2016

PeterJens said:

If you have faith in what someone says, you follow their instructions. So having faith in Jesus is obeying Him, ie following the sermon on the mount.

It sounds like your position is the sermon on the mount is impossible. If this is so, you do not believe in Jesus or have faith in His words. So oddly though you create this mental image of you are truly representing Him, that is actually a lie.
You are representing part of Pauls teaching, in isolation and excluding most of Christian understanding of Christ and the cross. Of course you claim this is the "true" understanding and what went before was wrong "religious" but it is you who are actually "religious" or "mystic" in your influence and ignore actually practically finding ways to "live" it out in obedience.

You label the obedience as "legalism" and call it evil, a denial of Christs power, but in reality you are saying any human following is "self-righteousness" as if that is evil, and just being "mystically" with Christ is the real spirituality. But your being is in religious meetings, and fellowships, listening to your "special" teachers who have the "knowledge" sounds a lot like a cult following rather than being taught by the "Holy Spirit"

One thread where a person who was sharing being taught by the "Holy Spirit" was immediately deemed evil and wrong, before much had been said. At the time I found that odd, but with this theological track record now I know it is just your groups double standard. But thankyou for educating us about how you deal with your ideas and theology and make it appear something else than it actually is. That takes great skill, but ultimately is pointless.

Would you consider it mystic teaching to say that if I have anger and resentment in my heart, I have murdered a person?
To have faith means to believe and trust in someone and what they have said.
Jesus said if we have anger in our heart we have already murdered.
You have said this is not true and it is only if we do the act outwardly that we have murdered.

Jesus: anger in your heart means you have already murdered.
peter jens: Not true! Only if we do it outwardly have we murdered.

CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE

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