Suicide Unpardonable ? or RCC Nonsense?

[PaulMack]

Why are you passing judgement on others GuessWho?

Actually what you sought were people who would praise you for your great understanding of the Scriptures. Sorry to bust your balloon, but you really do not understand the Scriptures at all.

Who are you to judge the Children of God? Are you saying that all those people who are in great pain are not Christians? Before you judge others you really need to take a good look in the mirror. You are making an assumption about something you really know nothing about.

You need to repent GuessWho and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior because i do not see the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you. All i see is condemnation for others you do not like.

 

[hornetguy]

I expected these sort of answers that avoid the questions.

I did not invite you to play with me games. I only sought some honest answers to my questions. Some clarifications to my lack of understanding. I guess this is not the place for asking questions because people jump like burn when they feel their ideological idols destroyed.

I thought salvation was supposed to change your being, I tought you united with Christ through the Holy Spirit, I tought salvation meant delivery from the devil, from death (all kind of death not only the second death). I thought salvation was a mystery and a paradox, like the kingdom of God: it is already here, but not yet.

I guess what I am trying to say is that people who claim to be saved are the most fake people in the world. They claim to know God personally, to have Jesus in their hearts etc. (because that's what salvation means) and then they comit suicide. And you're telling me that these people REALLY knew God? Who pushes them to take their lives? In my mind only one can to that: the devil.

I get the feeling you don't think you have a lack of understanding... that's why I said I wasn't going to play games with you... but then I still answered your question.... which is what you wanted me to do. And now you want to argue about it?

We obviously disagree on what can happen in a believer's life.... simply because one is saved does not preclude them from falling prey to mental illness, or severe depression, or a physical malady such as bipolar disorder.

Being saved means that you will not lose your salvation if you sin... if you are walking in the light, you are covered. This does NOT mean you can willingly live a life of sin.... you are not walking in the light if you are doing that.... read Romans...

If you believe that a Christian will live a perfect, sin free life simply because they have been saved, you are wrong. Again, read Romans.

I don't want to argue with you.... I don't mind discussing it with you, but arguing doesn't help either of us.

Please don't be offended by what I say... if you truly want answers, I will be happy to offer my opinions, as will many others on this board. I just want to avoid being caught up in "doctrinal wars"..

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree with you, brother. But with the last sentence, it doesn't make those thoughts go away completely. I still have days in which it is a struggle to just do the basic of things. Days where it's a struggle to get out of bed. And I've had those prayers, and read the Bible when such things have happened. If preaching the gospel essentially ended all of that, God wouldn't have invented psychological science to help with mental illness.

I understand what you are saying.

Keep listening to the gospel of the grace of Christ as it is the power of God for salvation which includes having a sound mind. I'm a very firm believer in hearing the gospel everyday. The gospel is a lot more then saying "yes to an altar call".

Romans 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[GuessWho]

I really do not understand "salvation" the same way you do.

So, yes, I lack understanding on how YOU see salvation.

I don't want to argue either.

So far, I understand that for you, salvation is not an inward act, you know, something that changes you. It is more like an outward act done by God but that doesn't have any real and significant implication on your life. Because if it did, you would not comit suicide.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Have you ever actually dealt with suicidal individuals?
I have.
Thousands of them.

The whole point about suicide is that it is not normal and normal people do not consider suicide.
Points #2 and #3 cannot apply to people with suicidal ideation - by definition what they are thinking is pathological.

Your argument may be theoretically plausible but it does not stand up to any test - theological, legal, or medical/psychiatric.

Hi TonyJay,

A few. I am not in the line of work to deal with thousands.

If you re-read what I wrote....I basically agree with what you said. I didn't say points 2 and 3 "cannot"...but I did say "may not". That was the whole point of what I was saying.

We are basically in agreement.

Peace.

 

[hornetguy]

I really do not understand "salvation" the same way you do.

So, yes, I lack understanding on how YOU see salvation.

I don't want to argue either.

So far, I understand that for you, salvation is not an inward act, you know, something that changes you. It is more like an outward act done by God but that doesn't have any real and significant implication on your life. Because if it did, you would not comit suicide.

No, we agree on that part of salvation... it IS an inward act... the acceptance of God's free gift of grace... we are to "repent", which means to turn away from our old life, and begin our walk in the light of Jesus. Yes, it DOES change us, but perhaps we are seeing the change differently.

I don't believe it is a "snap your fingers" kind of change... it is a conscious change of heart on our part, that takes a lifetime to "perfect"... it is always a work in progress. That is where grace comes in to play.... when we mess up, sin, the grace of God covers us.

We should be renewing our mind to be more like Christ daily, but as humans, we will never achieve perfection, and we can fall prey to sin.

Call it what you will, but if a person becomes so mentally distraught that they take their own life, it is wrong... a sin... a giving in to Satan's temptation... but it doesn't disconnect us from God, any more than any other sin does.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

One other point I had not mentioned, that we receive remission of sins if we repent, and not if we do not repent; for repenting is the first command Christ commanded when He began His ministry (Matthew 4:17), and it is repentance for the remission of sins is what is supposed to be taught in His Name among all nations (Luke 24:47). But the point is this: that if we commit self-murder, then we have committed a sin that we cannot repent of! Either we will put our trust into the hands and power of sin; or else we will put our trust into the hands and power of God; but what we cannot do is trust in both sin and God.

Hi lastofall,

Probably very few suicides are actually mortal sins because, as I've been trying to say and the Doctor mentioned as well, the psychological conditions may not be there for the person to actually have full knowledge, consent, etc. for them to really understand what they are doing.

Also, for some suicides, there is a possibility for the person to repent before they die. Someone could commit an act that will kill them but repent of it before they actually die. But God alone knows that.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

How can someone be saved and commit suicide? What kind of salvation is that which leads you to suicide?

Hi GuessWho,

Difficult question, the first one. I think we have to acknowledge that being saved does not necessarily remove all of our troubles and tribulations that we have in this world. A person can be saved and still struggle with mental illness. Christians aren't immune to such things.

Second questions. Salvation doesn't lead anyone to suicide. But being saved doesn't automatically remove all effects of the world upon us. So a Christian can suffer mental illness or psychological disorders. It would be that that could lead someone to suicide....not their salvation.

Peace.

 

[GuessWho]

No, we agree on that part of salvation... it IS an inward act... the acceptance of God's free gift of grace... we are to "repent", which means to turn away from our old life, and begin our walk in the light of Jesus. Yes, it DOES change us, but perhaps we are seeing the change differently.

I don't believe it is a "snap your fingers" kind of change... it is a conscious change of heart on our part, that takes a lifetime to "perfect"... it is always a work in progress. That is where grace comes in to play.... when we mess up, sin, the grace of God covers us.

Yes. It makes a lot of sense. Salvation means being existentially resolved. And that doesn't happen at the snap of your fingers. It is a long life process. All your life you must fight against sin and you must give yourself to God. Not only one time. You don't start to love God and your neighbour over night just because you said a prayer. To chose to follow Christ is not an easy thing. But it doesn't depend solely on our willing and power. We only make the first step and God makes the rest of them towards us.

We should be renewing our mind to be more like Christ daily, but as humans, we will never achieve perfection, and we can fall prey to sin.

Agree.

Call it what you will, but if a person becomes so mentally distraught that they take their own life, it is wrong... a sin... a giving in to Satan's temptation... but it doesn't disconnect us from God, any more than any other sin does.

My problem is not with the person that comits suicide and what happens with her. Only God can know that and I even pray for them. The problem begins when a person claims she is saved (changed, renewed, resurrected) and then comits suicide.

Salvation is a free gift, like you said. It is not Jesus Christ that gives up on you, it is you that give up on him. You can say mentally "I receive the gift" and then give it up...

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Why should we listen to anyone who prays to Mary as a god????

How can you Bestil_Andno claim to be a Christian while serving two Gods?

Until you reject Mary and serve God only we cannot accept you as a Brother in Christ. In the eyes of God, Catholics who Worship Mary are Pagans.

I do not need to talk to any Catholic because i was born and raised in the Catholic Church.

Hi PaulMack,

I'm gonna stick with the original topic at hand.

And, by the way, nobody is forcing you to talk with me.

I do know everything the Catholic Church teaches.

Fine. Then I have a question for you.

There was a claim made to start this thread that I have questioned. The claim was that the Catholic Church teaches that if somebody commits suicide they go to hell.

Since you know everything that the Church teaches, could you please show me where the Church teaches that?

I have this tendency to not just believe every statement that is made just because it is made.

You can try to deceive others here but you cannot deceive me. I was taught in the Catholic Church we had to go through Mary to reach Jesus.

This is nothing more than Paganism!

off topic

Repent Bestil_Andno, reject Mary, toss away Mary, serve God only and stop praying to Mary and receive the Salvation God wants you to have!

Ok. Maybe. But could we start maybe with something on a little smaller scale?

How about you show me where the Church teaches that somebody who commits suicide goes to hell. You believe that.

If you can show me that, I might be able to believe what you have to say about other topics.

If you cannot show me that, I might not trust what you have to say about other topics.

Until you turn away from Mary i cannot accept you as a Brother in Christ.

That's your choice. I still accept you as a Brother in Christ anyways.

But whether we are or not is irrelevant to the question.

Show me that you are a trustworthy Brother in Christ by showing me where the Catholic Church teaches the question at hand.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Its by Grace Bestil_Andno that we receive Salvation. We receive Salvation now, not after we die and spend time in Purgatory.

Salvation is not based on our Good Works like the Catholic Church teaches. Its our Rewards in Heaven that is based on our Works.

Also you have been lied to Bestil_Andno by the Pope into believing in Purgatory. Its by the Blood of Jesus is how we are cleansed of ALL our sins. In fact we are even cleansed of the Stain of our sins by the Blood of Jesus. And yes i know all about the teachings of the Catholic Church about the Stain of our sins. Therefore since we have been cleansed of both our sins and the stain of our sins we do not need to spend any time in Purgatory.

Please listen to the Holy Spirit, listen to God. Reject the Catholic Church, reject what the Popes teach, and above all reject Mary. Mary is dead and cannot hear nor answer your prayers. You are wasting you time praying the Hail Mary and the Rosary.

Only God is Omnipresent. Only God is Omniscience. Mary is not Omnipresent nor Omniscience. Mary cannot hear your prayers to her, nor can she answer you prayers. You are praying to a dead false Idol every time you pray the Hail Mary and pray the Rosary.

Do you not realize you have put you Soul in danger of Hell fire?

Please consider accepting Jesus as your ONLY Lord and Savior. We do not need Mary. Have nothing to do with Mary. Reject her! Follow Jesus only.

Until you do this you will not be allowed to enter into Heaven with us True Children of God.

Hey PaulMack,

So let me see if I get this right.

Since you cannot answer the question that I have asked, you are going to change the subject and talk about all sorts of other things.

How about this. I will gladly speak with you, one topic at a time, but first I would like something from you.

Either answer my question about where the Catholic Church teaches that people who commit suicide go to hell.

Or admit that it really doesn't and you were misinformed and then we can move on to something else.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Its by Grace Bestil_Andno that we receive Salvation. We receive Salvation now, not after we die and spend time in Purgatory.

Salvation is not based on our Good Works like the Catholic Church teaches. Its our Rewards in Heaven that is based on our Works.

Also you have been lied to Bestil_Andno by the Pope into believing in Purgatory. Its by the Blood of Jesus is how we are cleansed of ALL our sins. In fact we are even cleansed of the Stain of our sins by the Blood of Jesus. And yes i know all about the teachings of the Catholic Church about the Stain of our sins. Therefore since we have been cleansed of both our sins and the stain of our sins we do not need to spend any time in Purgatory.

Please listen to the Holy Spirit, listen to God. Reject the Catholic Church, reject what the Popes teach, and above all reject Mary. Mary is dead and cannot hear nor answer your prayers. You are wasting you time praying the Hail Mary and the Rosary.

Only God is Omnipresent. Only God is Omniscience. Mary is not Omnipresent nor Omniscience. Mary cannot hear your prayers to her, nor can she answer you prayers. You are praying to a dead false Idol every time you pray the Hail Mary and pray the Rosary.

Do you not realize you have put you Soul in danger of Hell fire?

Please consider accepting Jesus as your ONLY Lord and Savior. We do not need Mary. Have nothing to do with Mary. Reject her! Follow Jesus only.

Until you do this you will not be allowed to enter into Heaven with us True Children of God.

With all due respect I am not going to respond to all of this until we wrap up the initial question at hand.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Actually we are anti-Satan. We cannot help it if the Catholics want to follow Satan instead of God. We cannot stop them from doing this, its their life.

So exposing the lies of the Catholic Church is hating the Catholics? Let me guess are you Yahweh_is_gracious a Catholic?

We need to expose the lies from the Catholic Church. Lies like Purgatory, Mary being born sinless, Mary being equal to and above God. We are to expose these and other lies from the Catholics.

Why are you here? Are you here to cause God problems? Like i have said before we do not need the lies of the Catholics on this site. If you want to listen and learn the Truth then you are welcomed to sit down and listen. But do not try to deceive us with the lies of the Catholic Church.

Hi PaulMack,

How about we just step back for a second and just answer one question.

Where does the Catholic Church teach that those who commit suicide go to hell?

There might, indeed, be a lie floating around out there right now. Or maybe there isn't. We are looking for answer.

We don't need to discuss Satan, or Purgatory, or Mary or anything else to figure that out.

Peace.

 

[emjcares]

Jesus-
God became man and dwelt among us.

He went to the cross to pay the penalty for our sins in full
and satisfy the justice of God.

Justice and mercy were met at the cross.

Jesus died on the cross, but the grave could not keep Him.

He rose from the grave, showing Himself alive through many infallible proofs.

He conquered, sin, death and the devil, is alive forevermore,
and this was all in fulfillment of prophecy.

He is King of kings and Lord of lords, God our Savior, and the only way to be saved.

The way to the throne of God is open to all, and the way to have our sin debt erased, our sins forgiven,
and eternal life, is through Jesus and Him alone.

It is a gift of God's grace and must be received as a gift by faith.

What it means to be saved means, in part at least, that where we were once headed to an eternity of outer darkness, separated from God and each other forever, Jesus stepped into time and space, took our sins, and the wrath of God, which we deserved, upon Himself, and gave us His righteousness, the sinless for the sinful, along with the gift of eternal life with Him, in His Kingdom which has no end.

Salvation is a gift, God's gift to us, received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be and must be saved, and this is God's doing, the Creator redeeming His creation and His fallen creatures to Himself by way of Jesus.

How we grow as individuals is really a personal thing between us and a relationship with God through Jesus, but He calls us to get to know Him and be conformed to His image through prayer and His Word the bible.

Collectively He wants us to support each other in love and encouragement, also in prayer, bible study, fellowship and worship, to help each other find and utilize the different gifts or talents He gives us, whether it be ministering within the body or helping others come to know the Truth and Love in Jesus, and to love our neighbors as we would want to be loved, and even loving and praying for our enemies.

All this for the glory of our great God and Savior!

Of course, we're all at different stages of growth and understanding, and in life in this world we have varying degrees of tribulation, but Jesus said to be of good cheer because He has overcome the world.

He calls us to be saved, and if we believe in Him, His finished work for us on the cross, and His resurrection, we are saved, for whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, let whosoever will, come and drink from the fountain of the water of life (Jesus) freely.

He wants us to have confident faith in Him, He said He would never leave us or forsake us, He loves us with an everlasting love, and the work that He began in us He will complete.

Obviously so much more can and will be said and done, so Hallelujah and praise to our King Jesus, our Father God, our Lord and Savior, our Comforter, our Healer and our Friend.

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." -John21:25-

 

[Bestil_Andno]

There is a time to come when God will call His children out of the Great Whore.

Please bear in mind, the Great Whore is the mother of whores, therefore, it is certain our Father will call His children out of all of her daughters also.

Keeping this in mind and heart, this is a lesson that there are believers in many sects who, for teh time being, are deceived. God knows everything; His ways are not our ways, so we should ot put all people in one bag until the tares have been separated from the wheat, and that will be accomplished by Jesus Christ,.

By the way, we are off topic.......the topic is about the pardon of suicide.

I agree.

Peace.

 

[Vdp]

Tell me Bestil_Andno, why do Catholics teach Mary was born without sin?

Romans 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

Romans 3:23
[SUP]3 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was the only person born without sin. Now i do know the Corrupted Catholic Church teaches Mary had to be without sin to keep Jesus free from Sin. But yet somehow by Magic Mary's mother did not have to be born without sin to keep Mary free from sin. Do you see how the Catholics have elevated Mary above God!

This is why Catholics are not Born Again Christians because Mary is their God who according to the Catholic Church is greater than God. If fact they have gone so far in claiming Mary is sitting at the right hand of God.

Repent Bestil_Andno. Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Reject Mary! Throw away all your statues and pictures of Mary. Stop praying the Hail Mary. Stop praying the Rosary. If you keep on the wide road you are on you will never be allowed to enter into Heaven with me.

There is Salvation outside of the Corrupted Catholic Church! You can reject the Catholic Church and Mary and still receive your Salvation!

 

[posthuman]

My problem is not with the person that comits suicide and what happens with her. Only God can know that and I even pray for them. The problem begins when a person claims she is saved (changed, renewed, resurrected) and then comits suicide.

i'm with you, sister.

i'm not opposed to hornetguy, either, i think.

like you, i can't comprehend of having received this gift, which is not 'mental assent' or the result of having obediently answered an 'altar call' and recited some magic words, but is a genuinely transformative calling of God Himself, and then going on to be so despondent and hopeless in life that one would actually kill themselves.

it's bewildering. as depressed as i may ever be, or as bleak as my future may ever look, knowing that i am not my own and that the Almighty cares for me and has purposed my life for His own use, i cannot even conceive of committing suicide. this seems absolutely antithetical to what i understand salvation to be -- in a certain sense, i have already committed suicide, taking up my cross and being baptized into Christ, so that with Him i was crucified too, and no longer live. dead to the world, to sin, to the law -- all those things. i would be denying God His right to do with my life as He will, even if His purpose is my suffering for the sake of His good, if i were to kill myself by my own compulsion.

but i think i understand hornetguy's response, too, that he is allowing for the possibility that someone who is truly redeemed, and who belongs to God, could under the influence of the spirit of the age, because of a lack of faith, or because of some psycho-physical problem, be overwhelmed by temptation of the Devil and take their own life. i guess i admit that is possible.

but my understanding is like yours, GuessWho -- if a person is truly redeemed by God, suicide simply does not fit.
because i understand salvation as being the work of God, not an human "choice" that we can somehow undo by our will. a necessary aspect of it is a redemption, renewing and transformation, by the hand of God Himself through His spirit, which is an ongoing work of sanctification in those who belong to Him, having by one sacrifice been declared sanctified forever, and through the work of the Spirit being built up and perfected in Him.
if this is truly happening to a person, and God Himself has both chosen and called you, i just can't understand how those things that cause a person to become so hopeless and devastated that they end their lives can ever be present in her or him.
we are saved in an eternal and sure hope.

how can you hold such a faith, and then act as though there is no hope?

that's not condemnation i'm expressing. it's being puzzled.
i don't believe suicide is "unforgivable" either -- that's not the issue for me.
the issue is how anyone who is being sanctified could ever arrive at such a state??

 

[GuessWho]

Thank you posthuman for being honest. That's what I was searching for. Not resolvation of the problem but honesty. It is difficult to talk about suicide and salvation because people think that you condemn to hell the person that comitted suicide only because you simply can't understand how the two (salvation and suicide) can fit together. I wasn't condemning people to hell, I just refused easy answers.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Tell me Bestil_Andno, why do Catholics teach Mary was born without sin?

Romans 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

Romans 3:23
[SUP]3 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was the only person born without sin.

Hi Vdp,

Don't you think we should stick to the topic at hand? I mean, I understand how threads can sortof morph into conversations and conversations can cover alot of different topics. But it seems like we should try to stay on topic. I see quite a few people who request that during threads.

So the question that I have with this topic is: Where does the Catholic Church teach that people who commit suicide go to hell?

Thanks.

Now i do know the Corrupted Catholic Church teaches Mary had to be without sin to keep Jesus free from Sin.

I've been trying to stay in line with the topic of the thread...but you've got me curious....so could you show me where the Church teaches that? Maybe that could be another discussion sometime. I don't think we should totally derail, though.

But yet somehow by Magic Mary's mother did not have to be born without sin to keep Mary free from sin. Do you see how the Catholics have elevated Mary above God!

off topic

This is why Catholics are not Born Again Christians because Mary is their God who according to the Catholic Church is greater than God.

This is all very off topic, Vdp. But I would like to quote something that you said in post #2 of a thread entitled "Who are the very Elect of God?".

You said, "All those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior ARE the Elect of God!

Those who have rejected Jesus are not the Elect.

Its clear as day and night."

According to that statement of yours, Catholics are part of the Elect of God if they have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Now you seem to be saying the opposite. That Catholics can't be part of the Elect. (??)

It seems like you are contradicting yourself. (By the way, Catholics do not believe Mary is a god or that she is greater than God.)

I suppose that could be yet another discussion sometime: Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is greater than God?

If fact they have gone so far in claiming Mary is sitting at the right hand of God.

Repent Bestil_Andno. Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Already have, thanks be to God!

Reject Mary! Throw away all your statues and pictures of Mary. Stop praying the Hail Mary. Stop praying the Rosary. If you keep on the wide road you are on you will never be allowed to enter into Heaven with me.

There is Salvation outside of the Corrupted Catholic Church! You can reject the Catholic Church and Mary and still receive your Salvation!

Off topic.....So back to the question I have about the topic of this thread:

Can you tell me where the Catholic Church teaches that people who commit suicide go to hell?

Maybe some of the other topics could be discussed when that question gets wrapped up. I really do get confused when there gets to be several topics going at once.

Peace.

 

[RBA238]

You wont go to hell for killing yourself, but I know God wont be very happy.

Ever read the verse where Jesus Said: "Don't you.know your body is THE TEMPLE OF GOD? And whom soever destroys this temple ( Drugs, Alcohol, including Suicide) Godcwill DESTROY HIM"