Sorry brother, but there is nothing in any of those scriptures that supports all of the GTS being killed. Verse 15 does mean that they are all killed, but that they "should" be killed and that because they will not worship the beast or his image. Proof of this is that other scriptures demonstrate that there will be Gentiles who make it through the seven year when Christ returns.
THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH
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No, my friend, Margaret McDonald was a pre-trib advocate. See the following:
n early 1830, a 15 year old Scottish Girl called Margaret McDonald claimed to have visions that included a secret rapture of believers before the appearance of a one man antichrist who she also named. Edward Irving (1792-1834) who was her Scottish Presbyterian pastor and forerunner of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements, attended prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland also in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle where he promoted this rapture doctrine as per her vision.
Source: PRE-DARBY RAPTURE ADVOCATES, IMMINENCY, AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION | FAITH-HAPPENS – Site of S.Douglas Woodward author, UNCOMMON SENSE, BLOOD MOON, THE FINAL BABYLON, POWER QUEST and LYING WONDERS OF THE RED PLANET
Quasar92
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REV 20;11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
MAT 13;40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25;32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The LOF is at the end of the millennium
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
MAT 13;40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25;32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The LOF is at the end of the millennium
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Hi STK,
No, I haven't ignored you, my friend, just fail to have sufficient time in the day to keep up. You know the old saying, "The hurrier I go, the behinder I get."
About the 24 Elders around the throne of God:
The twenty four Elders around the throne of God, represent the twenty four courses of the Levitical priesthood, with one priest for each course seated on each of the twenty four thrones.
As recorded in 1 Chr.24:7-18. In Jer.33:17-18: "For this is what the Lord says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, NOR WILL THE PRIESTS, who are Levites ever fail to have before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'" See also 2 Sam.7 for God's promise to David.
There are many who attempt to identify them as the twelve apostles and twelve of the old testament saints, but there is nothing in the Bible to support this theory or any of the others, except the one above.
Quasar92
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- Margaret MacDonald says “The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God – and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he – when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he.”
- Here she totally confuses The Elect (Jews) and the Bride of Christ (that does contain Jews). At the start of the tribulation God marks 144,000 Jews with power to do His preaching, they will evangelise the worldwide Jewish community along with the 2 witnesses Moses and Elijah who will be brought back to life (for 3 days) for the purpose of “restoring” the faith of Israel. And at the beginning of the tribulation The Holy Spirit will be poured out on Israel and they will dream dreams and have visions. (Acts 2:17)
- Only part of that Jewish community will respond in faith during the Tribulation, but this is preparing their hearts when they see Jesus Christ return at His second advent.
- The 144,000 Jews that were chosen by God are martyred (Revelation 14:1-5)
- Margaret MacDonald says: “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist.”
- And you just could not say it any clearer, THE ANTICHRIST WILL PERSECUTE THE CHURCH during the 7 year tribulation, of which another rapture will take place at Jesus’ Christ Second Coming.
https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2016/05/02/margaret-macdonald-vision-pre-trib-really/
S
we'll be praying and jamming on harps: Rev 5:8
And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.…
And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.…
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get you to understand something. None of the verses above say that everyone is killed. It says they "should be killed." That doesn't mean that everyone is. Then when you look at all the other scriptures that demonstrate that there will be Gentile believers that make it through until Christ returns the end of the age, then you can't continue to support that all Gentiles die during that last 3 1/2 years.
Give me an honest answer to the following:
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
Does the above scripture take place when the Lord returns to end the age, which is at the beginning of the thousand years, or does it take place at the end of the thousand years?
P
NIV ;15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
NASB;15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [l]speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
NASB;15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [l]speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
The problem with what you are proclaiming here popeye is that, since the only groups that will be here during the seven years will be Israel and the great tribulation saints, then by your claim there would be no mortal Gentile nations on the earth during the thousand years of Christ's reign. Yet, we have many scriptures that easily kill that idea. The word "Gentile" would be everyone who is not of Israel. You would be saying that the only mortal people during the millennial period will be Israel and no other nations. I would have agree to disagree here and leave it at that.
The original teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, come from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul as documented in the following:
Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.
Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].
The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.
1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.
"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.
"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.
Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.
"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.
"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Verse 18.
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
[/B]The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:
In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].
The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.
From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.
Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!
The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf
Quasar92
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Not saying all gentiles die.
The word says all w/o the mark die. That would mean Christians and I assume messianic Jews,but it could be that the christians are targeted first,and then the Jews are ushered away,possibly to petra.
Don't know about the plowshare deal,could be both or during one or the other?
The word says all w/o the mark die. That would mean Christians and I assume messianic Jews,but it could be that the christians are targeted first,and then the Jews are ushered away,possibly to petra.
Don't know about the plowshare deal,could be both or during one or the other?
P
I have never looked that deeply into the "who will populate" thingy,nor do I think anyone can give some conclusive answer to that.
But to hinge a emphatic belief that cancels those verses,I can see why I was never inclined to go there.
Could be some squeak by,but the obscure never has interested me.
But to hinge a emphatic belief that cancels those verses,I can see why I was never inclined to go there.
Could be some squeak by,but the obscure never has interested me.
P
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get you to understand something. None of the verses above say that everyone is killed. It says they "should be killed." That doesn't mean that everyone is. Then when you look at all the other scriptures that demonstrate that there will be Gentile believers that make it through until Christ returns........
Well Jesus destroys the army of the AC at his 2nd coming
So,that leaves the rest of earth's population.
Who says they have to follow darkness,and not defect into light?
In answer to that, here is another verse that demonstrates that there will be mortal Gentiles on earth during the millennial kingdom:
"If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain."
The above will be a condition for all nations during the millennial period. The "peoples of the earth" would be referring to any nation that is not Israel, ergo, Gentiles. All peoples of the earth during the thousand years, will be required to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. All I am saying that, not all of the GTS are killed. I'm sure that the majority will be, but as it is in God's nature, there will be a good number left to repopulate the millennial period.
"If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain."
The above will be a condition for all nations during the millennial period. The "peoples of the earth" would be referring to any nation that is not Israel, ergo, Gentiles. All peoples of the earth during the thousand years, will be required to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. All I am saying that, not all of the GTS are killed. I'm sure that the majority will be, but as it is in God's nature, there will be a good number left to repopulate the millennial period.