if you have to say that the word is the true inspired word of God to be saved you just condemned 90% of so called christians in here. wow you are more strict than i am. well it is not my place to chastise you. if you won't say something to someone's face then you shouldn't say it behind their back, how does one meddle when someone makes a public annoucement. God told us to preach the Gospel it is not our place to judge anyone
can a christiain lose their salvation
- Thread starter seer
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
if you have to say that the word is the true inspired word of God to be saved you just condemned 90% of so called christians in here. wow you are more strict than i am. well it is not my place to chastise you. if you won't say something to someone's face then you shouldn't say it behind their back, how does one meddle when someone makes a public annoucement. God told us to preach the Gospel it is not our place to judge anyone
D
What you are saying doesn't agree with the Apostle John; Let we look what he said in his letter:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So we have to confess our sin. All yes.. all....
Look what is written in the book of James about it:
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
So when we read and study the book of John we can see some:
John admit that Christians made sin (1John 1:8), but there is a solution for that.. and that is commit your sin (1:9)
But when you study the letter further: we see there are like in the OT sins unto the death.. and what that mean you can read in chapter 3.
This is not meaning: You lost your earth life. No, you lost your eternal life by the Lord.
Look what John is written in 1John 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
John is talking about 'brothers' that means.. actually saved people... So I think John is clear about this. Not only in this letter.. but in the Gospel of John it is written too.
In John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burne
This meant, that such branches are cut of the tree. There is no Holy Spirit in those branches.
When people say.. well we don't have to commit our sins.. because it is all forgiven.. we talked always in the past..not in the future.. the sins that we make in the future we have to commit.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So we have to confess our sin. All yes.. all....
Look what is written in the book of James about it:
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
So when we read and study the book of John we can see some:
John admit that Christians made sin (1John 1:8), but there is a solution for that.. and that is commit your sin (1:9)
But when you study the letter further: we see there are like in the OT sins unto the death.. and what that mean you can read in chapter 3.
This is not meaning: You lost your earth life. No, you lost your eternal life by the Lord.
Look what John is written in 1John 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
John is talking about 'brothers' that means.. actually saved people... So I think John is clear about this. Not only in this letter.. but in the Gospel of John it is written too.
In John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burne
This meant, that such branches are cut of the tree. There is no Holy Spirit in those branches.
When people say.. well we don't have to commit our sins.. because it is all forgiven.. we talked always in the past..not in the future.. the sins that we make in the future we have to commit.
D
[quote="phill] Your English is Fine Dutch.[/quote]
Thank you for the compliment. Next message in Dutch?
I agree totally with you.. you have to read it in the context.. And Phil, I am doing that.. all my postings are not just picked by verses.. It is in the context. So.. don't worry.. about that svp. It is not Eisegese, but Exegese
Yes, I agree totaly with this..
You have to understand that Paul thought he was living in the end time. (We can read this in the letter of Tessalonica, but in 2Tim 3:1 too)
But there is more about the word Kairos:
It mean too: ( and now I have a problem because I don't how to write this in English, so my excuse if it is not totally correct)
the exact time.. or the time that the Lord prepare for it.
We have to know and agree that Paul got a revelation of the Spirit.. It isn't important how and what for revelation it was..But Paul write to Tim: The Spirit Now the Spirit speaks expressly:
This mean actually: This is not I who say this: But the Lord Him self.... And this prophesy was for the day where Timotheus lived.. (because Paul wrote it to him) But we know too: It is for now too. Paul didn't know that... but that isn't important...
You posted on this quote.. But it is good to read my posting complete.. because I started with 1Tim 1:18-20.
But there is more; If it is true...and it is once saved always saved.. it is impossible for people who where written in the book of live that their names aren't blot out of the book.
But when we read the revelation of Jesus, written in the book of Revelation, we can see what He touch:
In (the context) Rev 3:1-8
We see that the Lord knows the works of the churches. (Rev 2:2) And we read that the Lord Jesus is not pleased about the works of this church. It doesn't start with compliments.
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
And than the Lord made a warning: Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent
At who is he talking too? To people who aren't Christians,.. or Christians who where once Christians and where written in the book of Live.
We are seeing this in a moment:
Than Jesus said; You have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
I think we agree that Jesus meant.. those people are saved...because they where faithful to the Lord.
But the Lord said to the other churchemembers: Change your thought... and come back.. Because Jesus said:He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment
So if he win, he will wear white clothes too, like the other,... and if they don't change their lives... Jesus will wipe out their names of the book of Live. What meant: once they where standing in it.. actually..on this moment, they are standing in it.. So on this moment, they are saved..... But if there is no changing.. they are lost.
GBY
Thank you for the compliment. Next message in Dutch?
I agree totally with you.. you have to read it in the context.. And Phil, I am doing that.. all my postings are not just picked by verses.. It is in the context. So.. don't worry.. about that svp.
It is not Eisegese, but Exegese Yes, I agree totaly with this..
You have to understand that Paul thought he was living in the end time. (We can read this in the letter of Tessalonica, but in 2Tim 3:1 too)
But there is more about the word Kairos:
It mean too: ( and now I have a problem because I don't how to write this in English, so my excuse if it is not totally correct)
the exact time.. or the time that the Lord prepare for it.
We have to know and agree that Paul got a revelation of the Spirit.. It isn't important how and what for revelation it was..But Paul write to Tim: The Spirit Now the Spirit speaks expressly:
This mean actually: This is not I who say this: But the Lord Him self.... And this prophesy was for the day where Timotheus lived.. (because Paul wrote it to him) But we know too: It is for now too. Paul didn't know that... but that isn't important...
You posted on this quote.. But it is good to read my posting complete.. because I started with 1Tim 1:18-20.
But there is more; If it is true...and it is once saved always saved.. it is impossible for people who where written in the book of live that their names aren't blot out of the book.
But when we read the revelation of Jesus, written in the book of Revelation, we can see what He touch:
In (the context) Rev 3:1-8
We see that the Lord knows the works of the churches. (Rev 2:2) And we read that the Lord Jesus is not pleased about the works of this church. It doesn't start with compliments.
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
And than the Lord made a warning: Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent
At who is he talking too? To people who aren't Christians,.. or Christians who where once Christians and where written in the book of Live.
We are seeing this in a moment:
Than Jesus said; You have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
I think we agree that Jesus meant.. those people are saved...because they where faithful to the Lord.
But the Lord said to the other churchemembers: Change your thought... and come back.. Because Jesus said:He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment
So if he win, he will wear white clothes too, like the other,... and if they don't change their lives... Jesus will wipe out their names of the book of Live. What meant: once they where standing in it.. actually..on this moment, they are standing in it.. So on this moment, they are saved..... But if there is no changing.. they are lost.
GBY
F
Define Christian, Salvation can't be lost once you truly believe. You are born again and redeemed:
2 Corinthians 5:17
''Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.''
Attaining Salvation doesn't depend on anything we do, its what God did.
2 Corinthians 5:17
''Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.''
Attaining Salvation doesn't depend on anything we do, its what God did.
B
Can a born-again Christian lose their salvation? YES! Salvation is a gift of God that is open to all and will never cease till the end of this world . Once a person accepted Jesus Christ sincerely in their heart, he is a born-again Christian and all the sins committed was wash away. What is being "born-again" in a man? Man is a spirit, and soul, and body. The real man is the soul. The body will return to dust on this earth. The spirit of man was given by God because it is where the Holy Spirit will reside and thereby born-again.
When a man is born, his spirit is dead, in other word, the spirit remains intact but it can not function or useless. When he accept the Lord Jesus Christ, immediately the Holy Spirit enter and reside in the man's spirit, hence born-again. The Holy Spirit maybe grieved or quenched but never to leave till death of the man. Once the man sinned, the Holy Spirit is grieved or quenched, but the man remain a born-again Christian. So a born-again Christian can go to hell. Why?
The soul of man is where the sin reside. The soul have the spiritual heart, the intellect, emotions, and will. The spiritual heart is the battle ground between the intellect and emotions, and the born-again spirit of man (Holy Spirit residence). The biblical flesh is the intellect and emotions. The spiritual heart is part of the subconscious which need to be renewed by the word of God because sins are deposited in this place. Upon accepting the Lord Jesus Christ, the spiritual heart was cleansed from sins or the man have a new heart free from any sin. if the man will diie at this point in time, he is saved. On the other hand, if the man committed a sin, he must confess the sin according to I John 1:9 for cleansing of the spiritual heart. No confession - lost salvation.
When a man is born, his spirit is dead, in other word, the spirit remains intact but it can not function or useless. When he accept the Lord Jesus Christ, immediately the Holy Spirit enter and reside in the man's spirit, hence born-again. The Holy Spirit maybe grieved or quenched but never to leave till death of the man. Once the man sinned, the Holy Spirit is grieved or quenched, but the man remain a born-again Christian. So a born-again Christian can go to hell. Why?
The soul of man is where the sin reside. The soul have the spiritual heart, the intellect, emotions, and will. The spiritual heart is the battle ground between the intellect and emotions, and the born-again spirit of man (Holy Spirit residence). The biblical flesh is the intellect and emotions. The spiritual heart is part of the subconscious which need to be renewed by the word of God because sins are deposited in this place. Upon accepting the Lord Jesus Christ, the spiritual heart was cleansed from sins or the man have a new heart free from any sin. if the man will diie at this point in time, he is saved. On the other hand, if the man committed a sin, he must confess the sin according to I John 1:9 for cleansing of the spiritual heart. No confession - lost salvation.
Revelation 2:8-11
8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write: `These things saith the First and the Last, who was dead and is alive:
9 I know thy works and tribulation and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death.'
so what happens to those Christians who DON'T overcome?
REMEMBER: this is a church that has NO rebuke from Christ, so EVERY Christian in this church is born again.
you think there wont be some people who wont cave in under pressure?... you better rethink the doctrine you believe...
Revelation 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book.
in order to have a part in the Book of Life, a person must be IN the Book of Life first... THIS IS A WARNING TO ALL PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS.
you mess with this book, Yahweh WILL take away from you what He gave you
your beloved "once saved always saved" doctrine?... never taught by Christ. Ever.
The first one that taught it was John Calvin... the same person who brings you Calvinism
no church leader before Calvin ever taught eternal security, or the "once saved always saved" doctrine
8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write: `These things saith the First and the Last, who was dead and is alive:
9 I know thy works and tribulation and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death.'
so what happens to those Christians who DON'T overcome?
REMEMBER: this is a church that has NO rebuke from Christ, so EVERY Christian in this church is born again.
you think there wont be some people who wont cave in under pressure?... you better rethink the doctrine you believe...
Revelation 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book.
in order to have a part in the Book of Life, a person must be IN the Book of Life first... THIS IS A WARNING TO ALL PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS.
you mess with this book, Yahweh WILL take away from you what He gave you
your beloved "once saved always saved" doctrine?... never taught by Christ. Ever.
The first one that taught it was John Calvin... the same person who brings you Calvinism
no church leader before Calvin ever taught eternal security, or the "once saved always saved" doctrine
Well, all I can say is I am glad there is now no condemnation for those in Christ, that my name is in the book, I am glad that I don't not have to fret or worry everyday that I will lose my salvation as Christ has gained it for me, I am an heir with Christ, reconciled to God, adopted as a son, God caused me to believe, he regenerated my heart as I was dead to sin in the darkness of this world.
When I sin, the Spirit in me brings me to repentence, and I have am advocate in Jesus, washed by His blood, I don't need to worry, for the when you are a truly, and that is the main word truly born again, you haved been saved once and for all, and will do the things pleasing to the Lord (fruit of the Spirit). you are His.
I was saved (past)--Justified-- a right standing before God
I am being saved--- sanctification-- the process of the Spirit working in you to be mor elike Christ
and will be saved--- Glorification -- the time the Lord takes you or when Jesus comes back
Praise God that He saved a wretch like me.. for in my darkened natural state I could not and would not have chosen Him.
(Ps.. if you think it is just calvinists who believe this then you are very mistaken.)
In Love
Phil
When I sin, the Spirit in me brings me to repentence, and I have am advocate in Jesus, washed by His blood, I don't need to worry, for the when you are a truly, and that is the main word truly born again, you haved been saved once and for all, and will do the things pleasing to the Lord (fruit of the Spirit). you are His.
I was saved (past)--Justified-- a right standing before God
I am being saved--- sanctification-- the process of the Spirit working in you to be mor elike Christ
and will be saved--- Glorification -- the time the Lord takes you or when Jesus comes back
Praise God that He saved a wretch like me.. for in my darkened natural state I could not and would not have chosen Him.
(Ps.. if you think it is just calvinists who believe this then you are very mistaken.)
In Love
Phil
D
Hoi Phil,
Thank you for your posting.. No I don't say..you have to fear that you are losing the salvation.. Absolute not... We don't need to live in a kind of cramp.... Because, if we love the Lord, we wanted to do what He say...
I don't say: You have to earn your salvation or grace... (That is not the question) And the mercy of the Lord is big.. we can see that in Rev 3.
And the beautiful thing is in your posting this: When you bring your sins to the Lord there is nothing wrong... And that is what I say: Because I know, you sorry about it... And when it happen again... you can bring it again again again and again to the Lord.
But we have to bring it to Him. Unfortunately, it isn't always like that...
Hi Dutch I wasn't replying to your post, I was just stating my position.
My position is that God, saved me, I did not call to him until He opened my eyes softened my heart, it was then that I called out in Faith.. as you and everyone else.. if you really think about.. I did not rely on me to call out to God, for that would never have happened.
Secondly my salvation is secure, and those who are truly born again are secure also.
Thats all.
In Love
Phil
D
I know Phil, that you didn't replying on my post... and that you stating your position.
Like I see it: We don't have agree with all the topics... (but we have to respect each other)..But, what we don't have to forget is: We are brothers..(and sisters) and we worship the one who Saved us all...
It isn't the mention to fight each other.. but understand each other...
The Lord Jesus is in our midst... He knows your and mine hart... and when you are stating your position, you testify from Jesus... And when that is true.. I wanted to say amen on that.
GBY
Like I see it: We don't have agree with all the topics... (but we have to respect each other)..But, what we don't have to forget is: We are brothers..(and sisters) and we worship the one who Saved us all...
It isn't the mention to fight each other.. but understand each other...
The Lord Jesus is in our midst... He knows your and mine hart... and when you are stating your position, you testify from Jesus... And when that is true.. I wanted to say amen on that.
GBY
1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:1jo 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
It doesn't say when a man sins but if a man sins, you have an option while in the flesh we will always have sin but we do not have to sin
Last edited:
D
Yes...??? This said nothing about once saved, always saved.. If the Lord say: I know you have to come to me.. but you don't listen to the voice of the Lord.. you never got what the Lord wants to give you..
The Lord is not a suger uncle.. Or Santa Claus...
Jesus said this (Mt 6:14):
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Here we can read it is an order that we have to forgive others... If we don't forgive..our heavenly Father can't forgive us.
There is no text in the Bible, that said: You can still maintain in sin. It is good to read all the text about grace.. because the grace is the most important gift. But it is good to read all the Bible texted about warnings..
But it is good, to see what the Lord say about that if the people of Sardis don't make a change..he will blot them out of the book of live. (Rev 3:5)
The same word is used in Col 2:14 only in the opposite.. way.
This is what the Dake Bible is written about this verse:
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Here is Christ promise not to blot the name out of the book of life of any man who will obey the command of the Lord Jesus. What if some should refuse to obey this commands, would their names not be blotted out? If we say this is impossible, we accuse God of using vain threats on his people.
To understand we have to read the OT, Ex 32:32-33 Where Moses asked the Lord to forgive their sin. And where the reaction of the Lord is:Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
To understand who is in the book of live the Biblical Encyclopaedia (Bijbelse Encyclopedie, under redaction from Prof. dr W.H Gispen, and more) said this:
It is a book where the LORD God, the name write from who is righteous (Ps 69:28)
The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia said this:
In the New Testament it is the record of the righteous who are to inherit eternal life (#Php 4:3; Re 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 21:27)
All it said: In the book of live is written the one who are righteous for God. And we know who are righteous for the Lord: That are people who live by faith in Jesus Christ.
And my question is the same as Rev. Dake: Did the Lord made a vain accuse?
The Lord is not a suger uncle.. Or Santa Claus...
Jesus said this (Mt 6:14):
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Here we can read it is an order that we have to forgive others... If we don't forgive..our heavenly Father can't forgive us.
There is no text in the Bible, that said: You can still maintain in sin. It is good to read all the text about grace.. because the grace is the most important gift. But it is good to read all the Bible texted about warnings..
But it is good, to see what the Lord say about that if the people of Sardis don't make a change..he will blot them out of the book of live. (Rev 3:5)
The same word is used in Col 2:14 only in the opposite.. way.
This is what the Dake Bible is written about this verse:
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Here is Christ promise not to blot the name out of the book of life of any man who will obey the command of the Lord Jesus. What if some should refuse to obey this commands, would their names not be blotted out? If we say this is impossible, we accuse God of using vain threats on his people.
To understand we have to read the OT, Ex 32:32-33 Where Moses asked the Lord to forgive their sin. And where the reaction of the Lord is:Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
To understand who is in the book of live the Biblical Encyclopaedia (Bijbelse Encyclopedie, under redaction from Prof. dr W.H Gispen, and more) said this:
It is a book where the LORD God, the name write from who is righteous (Ps 69:28)
The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia said this:
In the New Testament it is the record of the righteous who are to inherit eternal life (#Php 4:3; Re 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 21:27)
All it said: In the book of live is written the one who are righteous for God. And we know who are righteous for the Lord: That are people who live by faith in Jesus Christ.
And my question is the same as Rev. Dake: Did the Lord made a vain accuse?
All I can say is Dutch, that if you belive you can lose your salvation that is up to you..
I like how you quote professors as if that proves a point.. I could list all day long from, Scholars and Bible dictionary's etc, on once saved always saved.
However, as I say, I am secure in the knowledge that Christ will not let his true sheep be lost again after being found.
In Love
Phil
I like how you quote professors as if that proves a point.. I could list all day long from, Scholars and Bible dictionary's etc, on once saved always saved.
However, as I say, I am secure in the knowledge that Christ will not let his true sheep be lost again after being found.
In Love
Phil