Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[Placid]

Hi Quasar92,
　
Quote from Post 1158:
Notbythesword said:
God alone is indeed the power that created everything. It was God alone who created "through" and "for" Jesus. It is God alone who does the works "through" Christ. God has always been the one who does these works, regardless of who He does them through.

　
--- Then you said:
Quote: That is a correct assessment of the creation which is also endorsed in Heb.1:1-2 in the same way.


I have to ask you, --- Where is the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) through whom all things were made, John 1:3?
　
I know you shy away from mentioning 'three' because that might make people think of a trinity, but there were three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.

--- They are recognized as the 'Godhead', --- but neither Christ, nor Jesus were part of that were they?
--- I know you like to say "The Holy Spirit was the Father,'"--- so there was only One of Him, But I like to think that the Holy Spirit was the 'Spirit of the Father, --- and is mentioned separately, as in Genesis 1:1 - 2.

--- So, where does the 'Word,' (Logos) fit in?
　

 

[notbythesword]

Ok placid, why is it that you and quasar, sword and others around here are such "shallow" thinkers? And I don't mean this as some sort of put down. I'm talking about the fact that you guys never look up the meaning of words by using a Lexicon? I say this because the Bible was not written in English but in Hebrew, Greek and Aramanic. In fact, the Greek language is just about the most precise language in the world where you get the full affect of what the words mean in their context. But what do I mean exactly? You made this statement: "And there are no verses that say Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth.
--- But it does say that "Jesus was born on earth."
--- There are no places where it says, 'the Word was Jesus,' or that says, 'Jesus was the Word.'

Here is what Isaiah 6 starting at vs1 states, "In the year of King Uzziah's death, I "SAW" the Lo0rd sitting on His throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." Skipping down to vs5, "Then I said, "Woe is me for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lipts; FOR MY EYES HAVE SEEN THE KING, THE LORD OF HOSTS."

The verb Isaiah used for "saw" in Isaiah 6:1 is (ra'ah). It refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposte to, for example, the word "machazeh" which is the act or event of an ecstatic vision). This event is backed up by the Apostle John where John uses the Greek word (eidon) also a verb refering to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense.

We already know that God the Father is invisble, "whom no man hath seen, nor can see according to 1 Timothy 6:16. He is transcendant and lives in unapproachable light. And the Son is "the image of the invisible God" according to Colossians 1:15. Thus the one whom Isaiah "saw" in the literal sense with his eyes is the one whom he/Isaiah explicitly identified as "YHWH" the same one whose glory he saw according to the Apostle John at John 12:41. In fact, Jesus Himself makes this clear at John 12:45, "And he that seeth Me seth Him that sent Me."

There is only ONE time when Isaiah saw someone he, speaking by the Holy Spirit identified as "YHWH," and John's spirit-inspiried narrative of the interactions of Jesus with the Jews in the 11th and 12th chapter of his gospel, including their rejection of Christ, says that what Isaiah saw was HIS (ie Jesus') glory.

This works in perfect harmony with John's whole purpose, given the FACT that John had previously identified the one who became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) as "God" (John 1:1). Now, if you have a mind to bring up Isaiah 53 by saying Isaiah ALSO foretold the sufferingt and rejection of Christ (which is true btw) but it is 'IRRELEVANT to this account. You cannot ignore the grammar and the immediate context, including the clear and unmistakable words of Jesus Christ Himself in that very context. This is why are brought up the grammar and the looking up of words at the beginning of my post.

In short, this is a game changer because the verse themselves "DIRECTLY" contradict your statement that Jesus was not in heaven nor that He preexisted His incarnation. What are you thoughts on this placid?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

No need to resort to calling people “shallow thinkers” simply for having a difference of opinion than you. Did you learn that from scripture as well?

 

[notbythesword]

Hi notbythesword,
In the Post above yours, 1096, I said.
Quote: None of the language of trinity is in the Bible:
The concept of trinity, --- was obviously not known to the Apostles, or they would have taught it.
--- A verse that says, 'Jesus is God,' --- or a verse where Jesus said, "I am God." --- No.
--- A verse that says, 'Christ is God,' --- or a verse where Christ said, "I am God." --- No.

And there are no verses that say Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth.
--- But it does say that "Jesus was born on earth."
--- There are no places where it says, 'the Word was Jesus,' or that says, 'Jesus was the Word.'


And you said in Post 1097:
Quote:
Nor do I view Christ as merely a man, but of divine being. Just because you believe Jesus is divine, does not mean you have to believe He is God.
Furthermore, it was God who then "exalted" Jesus and sits Him at His right hand.
Jesus specifically said that He did not come on His own accord, but that it was the Father who sent Him. This shows that Jesus was commanded by God before He was in earthly form. God was always in control, even before Jesus’s incarnation.

The 'trins' try to replace the Word that was with God (through whom all things were made), with Jesus, who was born on earth.
--- Have you found verses that say Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth?

And the second thing the 'trins' say is that Jesus and Christ were the same Person. However, Jesus was born on earth from an earthly mother, but without sin, so He was qualified to be our Savior. --- And Christ came from heaven and was the 'Immanuel' of Matthew 1:23, which is translated, "God with us," and He was the Messiah.
It says in 2 Corinthians 5:19 "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself."
--- As I understand it, Jesus was born on earth, and Christ came from heaven, --- They were together, along with the Holy Spirit, though the years on earth, --- and after the resurrection and the ascension, Christ was seated at the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1 --- And Jesus became our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, as it says in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- So Jesus is the High Priest in the Sanctuary on the right hand of the throne, --- in a tabernacle which the Lord erected. --- So Christ and Jesus have different positions in heaven.
And the Holy Spirit remains on earth to indwell believers in their earthly bodies.
What are your thoughts on this? How do you understand it from the Scriptures?

Hi Placid. Thanks for the questions. I only have about 20 minutes left before I have to get back to work, so I kind of have to make this quick. There are quite a few examples in scripture that show Jesus’s existence prior to His entering into this world. One example I’ll give is Luke 10:18.

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

We know that Satan was around way before 1 AD as evidenced by the story of Job. So, if Christ saw Satan’s fall from heaven, it’s only natural to conclude that He was around way before His earthly appearance. I also believe that Jesus was the Word and that the Word became flesh as they do.

The difference being that they believe that the “Word” is speaking of being God Himself. I do not hold to that view. I would have to break down John 1:1 in its original Greek to discuss this further. This would take too long to cover right now though.

You mentioned Jesus being from earth and Christ being from heaven. They are one and the same actually. Christ Just means “anointed” or “anointed one”. Jesus was anointed by the Father. Anyways, hope this helped.

 

[VCO]

Your absolutely right in saying that firstborn has had a fraction of instances of alternate meaning. However, the surrounding context has always showed us that this was not to be taken literally. The difference with Jesus being called firstborn, is that this was tied directly to creation.

In addition, you have multiple references throughout scripture identifying Jesus as the “ONLY begotten” of the Father. Taking this into consideration, I have no reason not to take “firstborn from the dead” literally. There is no other surrounding context to make me think otherwise.

Now I know that you view Colossians 1:15-16 as showing Jesus as the creator, but I view it as God being the creator. I see God creating “through” and “for” Jesus. This was pleasing to God. This is backed up by other verses in the Bible also. Hebrews 1:1-2 reads…

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
. . .

Here is a commentary excerpt that will help you understand exactly what we believe about those verses, and the way you phrased your post, leads me to think you do not understand that we absolutely believe that the Son is part of GOD Himself :

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature [Col. 1:15]

1. He is the "image of the invisible God." "Image" is eikon. How could He be the image of the invisible God? You cannot take a photograph or an image of that which is invisible. How could He be that? John makes this clear in the prologue to his gospel: "In the beginning was the Word." That is a beginning that has no beginning -- Christ has no beginning. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1). And then John says, "And the Word was made [born] flesh..." (John 1:14). If you want the Christmas story in John's gospel, that is it: He was born flesh. This is the way that He became the image of the invisible God. How could He be that? Because He is God. If He were not God, He could not have been the image of the invisible God.


2. He is "the first born of every creature." This reveals His relationship to the Father and His position in the Trinity. God is the everlasting Father; the Son is the everlasting Son. His position in the Trinity is that of Son.
"Firstborn" indicates His priority before all creation. His headship of all creation does not mean that He was born first. We need to understand what the Scriptures mean by "Firstborn."


Nowhere does Scripture teach that Jesus Christ had His beginning at Bethlehem. We are told in the great prophecy of Micah 5:2 that He would be born in Bethlehem, but that He came forth from everlasting. Isaiah 9:6 tells us, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...." The child is born, but the Son is given. He came out of eternity and took upon Himself our humanity.


Paul is dealing with one of the philosophies of that day, one of the mystery religions. It is called the demiurge, and it held that God created a creature just beneath Him; then that creature created a creature beneath him; then that creature created a creature beneath him. You can just keep on going down that ladder until finally you come to a creature that created this universe. These were emanations from God. Gnosticism taught that Jesus was one of these creatures, an emanation from God. Now Paul is answering that. He says that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation, He is back of all creation. The Greek word is prototokos meaning "before all creation." He was not born in creation. He is the One who came down over nineteen hundred years ago and became flesh. He existed before any creation: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1-3). God the Father is the everlasting Father. God the Son is the everlasting Son. There never was a time when Christ was begotten.


There are several places in Scripture where the Lord Jesus is called the Firstborn. He is called the Firstborn of all creation; He is called the Firstborn from the dead; and He is called the only begotten.


He is called the Firstborn from the dead later in this first chapter, verse 18. This is what the psalmist spoke of: "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Ps. 2:7). Paul explained this idea further in that great sermon that he preached at Antioch of Pisidia in the Galatian country. Paul said there that the psalmist meant that Christ was begotten from the dead: "And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:32-33).


When Jesus Christ is called the Firstborn of all creation, it is not referring to His birth at Bethlehem. This is no Christmas verse. It means that He has top priority of position. It has nothing to do with His origin at all. The psalmist wrote, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Ps. 89:27). This makes it very clear that Christ as the eternal Son holds the position of top priority to all creation. In other words, He is the Creator. There is no demiurge, no series of creatures being created one after another. He Himself created all things.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[VCO]

Here is another Commentary that I agree with:

II. Doctrinal Instruction (1:15-1:23)

A. About Christ’s Deity (1:15-23)

1:15-20 One component in the heresy threatening the Colossian church was the denial of the deity of Christ. Paul combats that damning element of heresy with an emphatic defense of Christ’s deity.

1:15 image of the invisible God. See note on Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for image is eikon, from which the English word icon derives. It means “copy” or “likeness.” Jesus Christ is the perfect image—the exact likeness—of God and is in the very form of God (Phil. 2:6; cf. John 1:14; 14:9), and has been so from all eternity. By describing Jesus in this manner, Paul emphasizes that He is both the representation and manifestation of God. Thus, He is fully God in every way (cf. 2:9; John 8:58; 10:30-33; Heb. 1:8). the firstborn over all creation. Cf. verse 18. The Greek word for firstborn can refer to one who was born first chronologically, but most often refers to preeminence in position, or rank (see note on Heb. 1:6; cf. Rom. 8:29). In both Greek and Jewish culture, the firstborn was the ranking son who had received the right of inheritance from his father, whether he was born first or not. It is used of Israel who, not being the first nation, was however the preeminent nation (cf. Ex. 4:22; Jer. 31:9). Firstborn in this context clearly means highest in rank, not first created (cf. Ps. 89:27; Rev. 1:5) for several reasons: (1) Christ cannot be both “first begotten” and “only begotten” (cf. John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9); (2) when the “firstborn” is one of a class, the class is in the plural form (cf. v. 18; Rom. 8:29), but “creation,” the class here, is in a singular form; (3) if Paul was teaching that Christ was a created being, he was agreeing with the heresy he was writing to refute; and (4) it is impossible for Christ to be both created, and the Creator of everything (v. 16). Thus, Jesus is the firstborn in the sense that He has the preeminence (v. 18) and possesses the right of inheritance “over all creation” (cf. Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1-7, 13). He existed before the creation and is exalted in rank above it. See notes on Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:29.

1:16 thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Cf. 2:15; Romans 8:38; Ephesians 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 6. These are various categories of angels whom Christ created and rules over. There is no comment regarding whether they are holy or fallen, since He is Lord of both groups. The false teachers had incorporated into their heresy the worship of angels (see note on 2:18), including the lie that Jesus was one of them, merely a spirit created by God and inferior to Him. Paul rejected that and made it clear that angels, whatever their rank, whether holy or fallen, are mere creatures, and their Creator is none other than the preeminent One, the Lord Savior, Jesus Christ. The purpose of his catalog of angelic ranks is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over any being the false teachers might suggest. All things were created through Him and for Him. Cf. Romans 11:33-36. See notes on John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2. As God, Jesus created the material and spiritual universe for His pleasure and glory.

1:17 He is before all things. When the universe had its beginning, Christ already existed, thus by definition He must be eternal (Mic. 5:2; John 1:1, 2; 8:58; 1 John 1:1; Rev. 22:13). consist. Lit. “to hold together.” Christ sustains the universe, maintaining the power and balance necessary to life’s existence and continuity (cf. Heb. 1:3).

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH="colspan: 3"]Titles of Christ[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Name or Title[/TH]
[TH]Significance[/TH]
[TH]Biblical Reference[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adam, Last Adam[/TD]
[TD]First of the new race of the redeemed[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor. 15:45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alpha and Omega[/TD]
[TD]The beginning and ending of all things[/TD]
[TD]Rev. 21:6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bread of Life[/TD]
[TD]The one essential food[/TD]
[TD]John 6:35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chief Cornerstone[/TD]
[TD]A sure foundation for life[/TD]
[TD]Eph. 2:20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chief Shepherd[/TD]
[TD]Protector, sustainer, and guide[/TD]
[TD]1 Pet. 5:4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Firstborn from the Dead[/TD]
[TD]Leads us into resurrection and eternal life[/TD]
[TD]Col. 1:18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Good Shepherd[/TD]
[TD]Provider and caretaker[/TD]
[TD]John 10:11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Great Shepherd of the Sheep[/TD]
[TD]Trustworthy guide and protector[/TD]
[TD]Heb. 13:20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High Priest[/TD]
[TD]A perfect sacrifice for our sins[/TD]
[TD]Heb. 3:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Holy One of God[/TD]
[TD]Sinless in His nature[/TD]
[TD]Mark 1:24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Immanuel (God With Us)[/TD]
[TD]Stands with us in all life's circumstances[/TD]
[TD]Matt. 1:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]King of Kings, Lord of Lords[/TD]
[TD]The Almighty, before whom every knee will bow[/TD]
[TD]Rev. 19:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lamb of God[/TD]
[TD]Gave His life as a sacrifice on our behalf[/TD]
[TD]John 1:29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light of the World[/TD]
[TD]Brings hope in the midst of darkness[/TD]
[TD]John 9:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord of Glory[/TD]
[TD]The power and presence of the living God[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor. 2:8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediator between God and Men[/TD]
[TD]Brings us into God's presence redeemed and forgiven[/TD]
[TD]1 Tim. 2:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Only Begotten of the Father[/TD]
[TD]The unique, one-of-a-kind Son of God[/TD]
[TD]John 1:14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prophet[/TD]
[TD]Faithful proclaimer of the truths of God[/TD]
[TD]Acts 3:22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Savior[/TD]
[TD]Delivers from sin and death[/TD]
[TD]Luke 1:47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seed of Abraham[/TD]
[TD]Mediator of God's covenant[/TD]
[TD]Gal. 3:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Son of Man[/TD]
[TD]Identifies with us in our humanity[/TD]
[TD]Matt. 18:11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Word[/TD]
[TD]Present with God at the creation[/TD]
[TD]John 1:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]The MacArthur Study Bible, by John MacArthur (Nashville: Word Publishing, 1997) 1837. © 1993 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


​

1:18 head of the body. Cf. 2:19. Paul uses the human body as a metaphor for the church, of which Christ serves as the head. Just as a body is controlled from the brain, so Christ controls every part of the church and gives it life and direction. Cf. Ephesians 4:15; 5:23. For a detailed discussion of the church as a body, see notes on 1 Corinthians 12:4-27. the beginning. This refers to both source and preeminence. The church had its origins in the Lord Jesus (Eph. 1:4), and He gave life to the church through His sacrificial death and resurrection to become its Sovereign. the firstborn from the dead. See note on verse 15. Jesus was the first chronologically to be resurrected, never to die again. Of all who have been or ever will be raised from the dead—and that includes all people (John 5:28, 29)—Christ is supreme (see notes on v.15; Phil. 2:8-11).

1:19 all the fullness. A term likely used by those in the Colossian heresy to refer to divine powers and attributes they believed were divided among various emanations (see Introduction: Background and Setting). Paul countered that by asserting that the fullness of deity—all the divine powers and attributes—was not spread out among created beings, but completely dwelt in Christ alone (cf. 2:9).

1:20 reconcile all things to Himself. The Greek word for reconcile means “to change” or “exchange.” Its NT usage refers to a change in the sinner’s relationship to God. See notes on Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. Man is reconciled to God when God restores man to a right relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. An intensified form for reconcile is used in this verse to refer to the total and complete reconciliation of believers and ultimately “all things” in the created universe (cf. Rom. 8:21; 2 Pet. 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1). This text does not teach that, as a result, all will believe; rather, it teaches that all will ultimately submit (cf. Phil. 2:9-11). having made peace. See note on Romans 5:1. God and those He saved are no longer at enmity with each other. the blood of His cross. See note on verse 14.

The Firstborn Over All Creation
(Col. 1:15-20)​

This passage includes a powerful defense of Christ’s deity. Apparently, a central component of the heresy that threatened the Colossian church was the denial of the deity of Christ. Ironically, throughout the centuries some cults have used the phrase “firstborn over all creation” (1:15) to undermine Christ’s deity. The assumption is that if Jesus was born at creation, then He is more like us than He is like God.The Greek word for firstborn, however, can refer to one who was born first chronologically, but it most often refers to preeminence in position or rank (Heb.1:6; Rom. 8:9). Firstborn in this context clearly means highest in rank, not first created (Ps. 89:27; Rev. 1:5) for several reasons:

• Christ cannot be both “first begotten” and “only begotten” (see John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9); and, when the firstborn is one of a class, the class is in the plural form (1:18; Rom. 8:29), but “creation,” the class here, is in a singular form.
• If Paul were teaching that Christ was a created being, he would be agreeing with the heresy that he was writing to refute.
• It is impossible for Christ to be both created and the Creator of everything (1:16). Thus, Jesus is the firstborn in the sense that He has the preeminence (1:18) and that He possesses the right of inheritance “over all creation” (Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1-7, 13).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,
　
Quote from Post 1160
In short, this is a game changer because the verse themselves "DIRECTLY" contradict your statement that Jesus was not in heaven nor that He preexisted His incarnation. What are you thoughts on this placid?

Response: --- Thank you for asking this question because Isaiah saw "The LORD of hosts" high and lifted up.
I could give you the background to identify that the LORD of hosts is the Word (Logos) but we may discover it as we go along.
　
The Word was present different places in the OT, but we will jump ahead to the last Book of the OT, and it says in Malachi 3:
1 "Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,"
Says the LORD of hosts.
--- This is the LORD of hosts speaking, and in some Bibles the LORD of hosts is in capitals to separate from Lord, who we will see later. So let's look at it this way:
　
Behold, I (the LORD of hosts) send My messenger (small 'm' on 'messenger' referring to John the Baptist),
And he (John) will prepare the way before Me (the LORD of hosts).
And the Lord (Lord with just a capital L) (the Messiah), whom you (Jews) seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple (the body that was prepared for Him) John 2:18 - 21, and Hebrews 10:5.
Even the Messenger (capital 'M' on Messenger, meaning Jesus Christ) of the covenant,
In whom you (Jews will) delight --- Because they were looking forward to their Messiah's coming.
Behold, He (the Messenger, Jesus Christ) is coming." --- Notice the change from 1st to 3rd person? --- 'He is coming.'
--- Says the LORD of hosts.
　
So the 'Word,' as the 'LORD of hosts,' who was mentioned from 1 Samuel to Malachi 4, --- is not mentioned in the NT.
--- And beginning the NT it starts with John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ.

(Only Jesus is visible, though Christ and the Holy Spirit were the Power of God in Him.)
And in the new Role He is called the 'Lord Jesus Christ.'
So Christ represents the 'Word' on earth through the Person of Jesus.
--- The LORD of hosts, or --- 'the Word was God,' John 1:1, --- but neither Christ nor Jesus were God.

And as it says in John 12:
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him (Jesus Christ),
38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
"Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His (the LORD of hosts's) glory and spoke of Him.
The transition from the LORD of host to the Lord Jesus Christ had not taken place in the OT, but was revealed through Jesus Christ in the NT.
　

 

[bluto]

No need to resort to calling people “shallow thinkers” simply for having a difference of opinion than you. Did you learn that from scripture as well?

Oh please sword, your a big boy and did you not read that I said this was not meant to be a put down? I was not trying to "deemean" you or insult you by my statement. I'm trying to get you to "expand your horizons" by looking up words and their meanings in their orginal languages. You would be surprised at how the Bible is full of gems when you do word studies because it allows you to understand the culture of the day by those words.

Now, how about you addressing what I posted, when you get time of course?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

do know placid that the "Word/Logos" is the "LORD" of hosts who is identified as Jesus Christ according to Malachi 3:1. And the "Word/Logos" is also identified as God at John 1:1. Remember John 1:1 says, "and the Word/Logos was "WITH" God, and the Word/Logos is God." That word "with" in context means there is someone is in opposition or in relation of another and does not mean the Word/Logos is God with Himself.

Now, getting back to Malachi 3:1? Your right, John the Baptist is the "malak" of the Lord who clears the way of the Lord. In Hebrew the word "malak" can mean "angel or messenger," it all depends on the context. Obviously it means messenger in the particular text because John the Baptist is not an angel, but rather a messenger. His mother might have thought John was an angel but we don't know?

And I don't know why placid your making an issue about captial letters. There are no captial letters in the Hebrew language so you making an issue out of this is "moot." Furthermore, this is why I said in my other post that you should look up how the words are used and what they mean by using a Lexicon. In other words, in English many of the words don't "jive" with the Hebrew or Greek language.

Now, let me show you where your "again" contradicting yourself as well as the Scriptures. Yes, Jesus Christ is the one coming to "His temple" God the Father is not coming to the temple because just as you said the Father cannot be seen. And I also know that your trying to "jackhammer" the idea that Jesus Christ coming to His temple means it is actually God the Father. This is how you get out of denying that Jesus Christ is not God.

So, here is a question for you about Malachi 3:1? Who is the messenger of the covenant and where in the Old Testament was this covenant made and to whom? This is an extremely important question placid.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Placid]

Hi notbythesword,

Quote from Post 1163:
There are quite a few examples in scripture that show Jesus’s existence prior to His entering into this world. One example I’ll give is Luke 10:18.

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

We know that Satan was around way before 1 AD as evidenced by the story of Job. So, if Christ saw Satan’s fall from heaven, it’s only natural to conclude that He was around way before His earthly appearance.
　
Response: --- You are right in saying that Christ was there in heaven before He came to earth, but Jesus was born on earth. Galatians 4:4. --- However, it was Christ who spoke the words through Jesus. --- The way to tell who is speaking is, if there is wisdom or prophecy spoken, it is Christ speaking through Jesus.

--- Christ sent out 70 disciples with power to heal the sick and cast out evil spirits and the 70 returned, in Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
--- You see, it was God's power given through Christ, because, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself."
See the prophetic part? As well as giving them power, Christ said, "Rejoice not in that, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven," --- declaring the future.
　

 

[bluto]

Hi notbythesword,

Quote from Post 1163:
There are quite a few examples in scripture that show Jesus’s existence prior to His entering into this world. One example I’ll give is Luke 10:18.

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

We know that Satan was around way before 1 AD as evidenced by the story of Job. So, if Christ saw Satan’s fall from heaven, it’s only natural to conclude that He was around way before His earthly appearance.
　
Response: --- You are right in saying that Christ was there in heaven before He came to earth, but Jesus was born on earth. Galatians 4:4. --- However, it was Christ who spoke the words through Jesus. --- The way to tell who is speaking is, if there is wisdom or prophecy spoken, it is Christ speaking through Jesus.

--- Christ sent out 70 disciples with power to heal the sick and cast out evil spirits and the 70 returned, in Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
--- You see, it was God's power given through Christ, because, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself."
See the prophetic part? As well as giving them power, Christ said, "Rejoice not in that, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven," --- declaring the future.
　[/QUOTE

And here all this time placid I thought Jesus and the Christ/Messiah were one and the same person? How did I miss this placid?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Placid]

Hi VCO,

Quote from Post 1164:
Paul is dealing with one of the philosophies of that day, one of the mystery religions. It is called the demiurge, and it held that God created a creature just beneath Him; then that creature created a creature beneath him; then that creature created a creature beneath him. You can just keep on going down that ladder until finally you come to a creature that created this universe. These were emanations from God. Gnosticism taught that Jesus was one of these creatures, an emanation from God. Now Paul is answering that. He says that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation, He is back of all creation. The Greek word is prototokos meaning "before all creation." He was not born in creation. He is the One who came down over nineteen hundred years ago and became flesh.

Response: --- There is a progression downward from God in the heavenlies to us on earth and it does follow certain levels of authority, --- as mentioned above.
And It was Christ who came down from heaven over 2000 years ago to indwell Jesus, who was born on earth, was it not?

---There are those who think that some Personages were 'from the beginning' without realizing that if there was only "ALMIGHTY GOD" in the beginning, then everything and every heavenly Personage had to be 'brought into being' in some order during 'eternity past.'
There is a close association between the Word and Christ, but the Word was 'with God in the beginning' of our earthly creation, --- which was not the beginning of 'eternity past.' --- And because there are progressive levels of authority, there are no 'co-equals.'

I have mentioned before the 'three levels of our redemption': --- First John the Baptist came to awaken the people that the Kingdom of God was at hand. --- Secondly, Jesus came on the scene and revealed God to mankind through miracles. John the Baptist said, in John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease." --- Thirdly, Jesus had to die on the cross as the Sacrifice before Christ could take leadership.

It was Jesus who died and shed His blood, but the close association of Christ and Jesus identifies them together as both going through death. --- While Christ was a Spirit who couldn't die, it is phrased this way by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once,
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (who believe) shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Did you notice that Jesus isn't mentioned? --- Because in the ascension, Jesus became the High Priest in heaven, --- and the FOCUS was on Christ, who also became the Head of the Church. --- And this shows a level of progression as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:
3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
And the progression would go above Christ to the Word, the heavenly Son of God, --- then to the Heavenly Father, --- then to Almighty God.
--- (There may be other intermediaries, but you can see there are no 'co-equals.')
　

 

[bluto]

Hi notbythesword,

Quote from Post 1163:
There are quite a few examples in scripture that show Jesus’s existence prior to His entering into this world. One example I’ll give is Luke 10:18.

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

We know that Satan was around way before 1 AD as evidenced by the story of Job. So, if Christ saw Satan’s fall from heaven, it’s only natural to conclude that He was around way before His earthly appearance.
　
Response: --- You are right in saying that Christ was there in heaven before He came to earth, but Jesus was born on earth. Galatians 4:4. --- However, it was Christ who spoke the words through Jesus. --- The way to tell who is speaking is, if there is wisdom or prophecy spoken, it is Christ speaking through Jesus.

--- Christ sent out 70 disciples with power to heal the sick and cast out evil spirits and the 70 returned, in Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
--- You see, it was God's power given through Christ, because, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself."
See the prophetic part? As well as giving them power, Christ said, "Rejoice not in that, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven," --- declaring the future.
　[/QUOTE

And here all this time placid I thought Jesus and the Christ/Messiah were one and the same person? How did I miss this placid?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bumped for placid. nt

 

[bluto]

do know placid that the "Word/Logos" is the "LORD" of hosts who is identified as Jesus Christ according to Malachi 3:1. And the "Word/Logos" is also identified as God at John 1:1. Remember John 1:1 says, "and the Word/Logos was "WITH" God, and the Word/Logos is God." That word "with" in context means there is someone is in opposition or in relation of another and does not mean the Word/Logos is God with Himself.

Now, getting back to Malachi 3:1? Your right, John the Baptist is the "malak" of the Lord who clears the way of the Lord. In Hebrew the word "malak" can mean "angel or messenger," it all depends on the context. Obviously it means messenger in the particular text because John the Baptist is not an angel, but rather a messenger. His mother might have thought John was an angel but we don't know?

And I don't know why placid your making an issue about captial letters. There are no captial letters in the Hebrew language so you making an issue out of this is "moot." Furthermore, this is why I said in my other post that you should look up how the words are used and what they mean by using a Lexicon. In other words, in English many of the words don't "jive" with the Hebrew or Greek language.

Now, let me show you where your "again" contradicting yourself as well as the Scriptures. Yes, Jesus Christ is the one coming to "His temple" God the Father is not coming to the temple because just as you said the Father cannot be seen. And I also know that your trying to "jackhammer" the idea that Jesus Christ coming to His temple means it is actually God the Father. This is how you get out of denying that Jesus Christ is not God.

So, here is a question for you about Malachi 3:1? Who is the messenger of the covenant and where in the Old Testament was this covenant made and to whom? This is an extremely important question placid.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bumped for placid. nt

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,

Quote from Post 1168:
Now, let me show you where your "again" contradicting yourself as well as the Scriptures. Yes, Jesus Christ is the one coming to "His temple" God the Father is not coming to the temple because just as you said the Father cannot be seen. And I also know that your trying to "jackhammer" the idea that Jesus Christ coming to His temple means it is actually God the Father. This is how you get out of denying that Jesus Christ is not God.

So, here is a question for you about Malachi 3:1? Who is the messenger of the covenant and where in the Old Testament was this covenant made and to whom? This is an extremely important question placid.

Response: --- Quote from 1166:
Even the Messenger (capital 'M' on Messenger, meaning Jesus Christ) of the covenant,
In whom you (Jews will) delight --- (Because they were looking forward to their Messiah's coming.)
Behold, He (the Messenger, Jesus Christ) is coming." --- Notice the change from 1st to 3rd person? --- 'He is coming.'
--- Says the LORD of hosts.
　
Quote: And I also know that your trying to "jackhammer" the idea that Jesus Christ coming to His temple means it is actually God the Father.

Response: --- Where did you get that idea? --- There is no mention of God the Father, Just the Word (Logos), the LORD of hosts, as you have rightly said,
Quote: do know placid that the "Word/Logos" is the "LORD" of hosts who is identified as Jesus Christ according to Malachi 3:1. And the "Word/Logos" is also identified as God at John 1:1. Remember John 1:1 says, "and the Word/Logos was "WITH" God, and the Word/Logos is God." That word "with" in context means there is someone in opposition or in relation of another and does not mean the Word/Logos is God with Himself.

--- In making the distinction that Jesus was human, --- then the conferring of Power was given to Christ, who was Spiritual and who indwelt the 'temple' or body of Jesus. --- So Jesus was the Vessel or temple (body) that God prepared for Him, Hebrews 10:5.
--- It was Christ who existed before in heaven, --- but Jesus was born on earth. Galatians 4:4. --- Even the Calendar was restarted at that time.
　
You ask,
"Who is the messenger of the covenant and where in the Old Testament was this covenant made and to whom? This is an extremely important question.


--- The Messenger of the New Covenant was the human Jesus, who could be seen and could identify with men, --- and the indwelling Christ, and the Holy Spirit who could not be seen, but who spoke through Jesus in wisdom and power.
So as not to make this too long, I will show where it came from later. --- The Prophecy and fulfillment.
　

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,
　
To continue with this:
Quote: Where in the Old Testament was this covenant made and to whom? This is an extremely important question.
　
Response: --- The Jews had drifted away from God. --- They were supposed to be the influence on the Pagans, to bring them to worship God, but it worked the opposite way when the Jews began to follow idolatry.
--- So this prophecy was given in Jeremiah 31:
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them," says the Lord.

33 " But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
　
--- This was the New Covenant of the Gospel, the GOOD NEWS of Salvation, which was for all who would believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. --- Then by surrendering their will to God's will, they would receive the Holy Spirit to indwell them and guide them in their new life in Christ Colossians 3:1-3.
And this is how God 'put His laws in their mind and wrote it on their hearts' --- by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
　
This was fulfilled and written about in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Thus the Old Covenant was fulfilled and we live in 'newness of life' in the Holy Spirit. --- The OT is out text book for beginnings, --- and the history of God's people, but we have God's guidance in our hearts and minds, if we submit to Him.
--- However there are many who claim to be Christians that live in the world, --- so they do not show a good witness to others, --- but 'we live and let live.'
　

 

[bluto]

Hi placid!

Before I start I went back to what you posted to me a while ago where you said this to the question I ask you which was, "Do you personally believe Jesus Christ is God Almighty?" Here is what you said: "No, only God is God Almighty, and all other beings are subordinate to Him."

So how can you say Jesus Christ is not God and in the same breath say the "Word/Logos is the Lord of hosts? Can you please explain why the "Word/Logos" at John 1:1 does not refer to Jesus Christ? I just want to get this reconciled before I continue to address your answer regarding who the messenger of the covenant is?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,

Quote from Post 1176:
So how can you say Jesus Christ is not God and in the same breath say the "Word/Logos is the Lord of hosts? Can you please explain why the "Word/Logos" at John 1:1 does not refer to Jesus Christ? I just want to get this reconciled before I continue to address your answer regarding who the messenger of the covenant is?

Response: --- To understand who the LORD of hosts was, we have to go back to this:
When Moses saw the burning bush in Exodus 3, he turned aside to see why the bush was burning, but not being consumed. --- And a Voice spoke to him and said, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." --- So which was God? --- The bush, --- the fire, --- or the Voice.
--- Almighty God was in heaven, but the Word was God on earth, in the various 'appearances,' when He came 'to His own creation.'
I believe the Scriptures as literally as I can, so when it says "I am God," --- it has to mean the Word, who was called God (Theos) in John 1:1, does it not?
　
When the Voice said to Moses, "I am sending you to Egypt to free My people." --- Moses objected. The Voice said, "I will be with you." --- So the invisible Word was with Moses through the wilderness.
Moses said, "When they ask who sent me, what will I say?"
And in Exodus 3:
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

So the Word was God, and also used the name, I AM. --- And in John 8, where the Pharisees were accusing Jesus:
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
--- This had to be the same voice speaking through Jesus, did it not?
　
I had mentioned the close relationship between the Word and Jesus, which is evident in the wilderness wanderings. It was Christ who accompanied them, as it says in 1 Corinthians 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. --- Exodus 17:1-7.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
　
--- Just a little clarification from Numbers 21:
5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread."
6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live."
9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
--- And it says in John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
　
After Moses died and Joshua took the leadership, the Lord spoke to him in a different way in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?"
14 So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come."
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?"
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.
　
--- Notice what the Lord said to Moses in Exodus 3:
5 Then He said, "Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."
　
--- The words 'armies' and 'hosts' are used interchangably in the OT and the "Commander of the Lord's army," was called, --- "The LORD of hosts."
He was with Moses, with Joshua, and through to Malachi 3, where He conferred power to Christ who indwelt and spoke through Jesus during their years on earth.
So, Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus, was the "Messenger of the New Covenant."

--- Using loose terms we could say 'they lived together, they died together, they were resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where Christ sat at the right hand of God. --- Colossians 3:1. --- And Jesus became our High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek in the Sanctuary, or new "Prayer room" in heaven. --- Hebrews 8:1-2.
　
--- Sorry, it is a little long, but I wanted to get it all in, and it may propmt more questions.
　

 

[bluto]

I get all that placid, "BUT" is not the "Word/Logos" Jesus Christ according to John 1:1-14 who became flesh or are you saying the "Word/Logos" is the spoken word of God, like in speaking/speech?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[VCO]

Hi VCO,

Quote from Post 1164:
Paul is dealing with one of the philosophies of that day, one of the mystery religions. It is called the demiurge, and it held that God created a creature just beneath Him; then that creature created a creature beneath him; then that creature created a creature beneath him. You can just keep on going down that ladder until finally you come to a creature that created this universe. These were emanations from God. Gnosticism taught that Jesus was one of these creatures, an emanation from God. Now Paul is answering that. He says that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation, He is back of all creation. The Greek word is prototokos meaning "before all creation." He was not born in creation. He is the One who came down over nineteen hundred years ago and became flesh.

Response: --- There is a progression downward from God in the heavenlies to us on earth and it does follow certain levels of authority, --- as mentioned above.
And It was Christ who came down from heaven over 2000 years ago to indwell Jesus, who was born on earth, was it not?

---There are those who think that some Personages were 'from the beginning' without realizing that if there was only "ALMIGHTY GOD" in the beginning, then everything and every heavenly Personage had to be 'brought into being' in some order during 'eternity past.'
There is a close association between the Word and Christ, but the Word was 'with God in the beginning' of our earthly creation, --- which was not the beginning of 'eternity past.' --- And because there are progressive levels of authority, there are no 'co-equals.'

I have mentioned before the 'three levels of our redemption': --- First John the Baptist came to awaken the people that the Kingdom of God was at hand. --- Secondly, Jesus came on the scene and revealed God to mankind through miracles. John the Baptist said, in John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease." --- Thirdly, Jesus had to die on the cross as the Sacrifice before Christ could take leadership.

It was Jesus who died and shed His blood, but the close association of Christ and Jesus identifies them together as both going through death. --- While Christ was a Spirit who couldn't die, it is phrased this way by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once,
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (who believe) shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Did you notice that Jesus isn't mentioned? --- Because in the ascension, Jesus became the High Priest in heaven, --- and the FOCUS was on Christ, who also became the Head of the Church. --- And this shows a level of progression as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:
3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
And the progression would go above Christ to the Word, the heavenly Son of God, --- then to the Heavenly Father, --- then to Almighty God.
--- (There may be other intermediaries, but you can see there are no 'co-equals.')
　

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom
I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He.
No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Philippians 3:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 20:28 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


I think the Scriptures are rather easy to understand about the DEITY of CHRIST. It amazes me how many theological HOOPS you have to jump through to arrive at a NON-Trinitarian's point of view.

 

[VictoriaLS]

Hi Bluto,

Quote from Post 1176:
So how can you say Jesus Christ is not God and in the same breath say the "Word/Logos is the Lord of hosts? Can you please explain why the "Word/Logos" at John 1:1 does not refer to Jesus Christ? I just want to get this reconciled before I continue to address your answer regarding who the messenger of the covenant is?

Response: --- To understand who the LORD of hosts was, we have to go back to this:
When Moses saw the burning bush in Exodus 3, he turned aside to see why the bush was burning, but not being consumed. --- And a Voice spoke to him and said, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." --- So which was God? --- The bush, --- the fire, --- or the Voice.
--- Almighty God was in heaven, but the Word was God on earth, in the various 'appearances,' when He came 'to His own creation.'
I believe the Scriptures as literally as I can, so when it says "I am God," --- it has to mean the Word, who was called God (Theos) in John 1:1, does it not?
　
When the Voice said to Moses, "I am sending you to Egypt to free My people." --- Moses objected. The Voice said, "I will be with you." --- So the invisible Word was with Moses through the wilderness.
Moses said, "When they ask who sent me, what will I say?"
And in Exodus 3:
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

So the Word was God, and also used the name, I AM. --- And in John 8, where the Pharisees were accusing Jesus:
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
--- This had to be the same voice speaking through Jesus, did it not?
　
I had mentioned the close relationship between the Word and Jesus, which is evident in the wilderness wanderings. It was Christ who accompanied them, as it says in 1 Corinthians 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. --- Exodus 17:1-7.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
　
--- Just a little clarification from Numbers 21:
5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread."
6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live."
9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
--- And it says in John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
　
After Moses died and Joshua took the leadership, the Lord spoke to him in a different way in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?"
14 So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come."
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?"
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.
　
--- Notice what the Lord said to Moses in Exodus 3:
5 Then He said, "Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."
　
--- The words 'armies' and 'hosts' are used interchangably in the OT and the "Commander of the Lord's army," was called, --- "The LORD of hosts."
He was with Moses, with Joshua, and through to Malachi 3, where He conferred power to Christ who indwelt and spoke through Jesus during their years on earth.
So, Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus, was the "Messenger of the New Covenant."

--- Using loose terms we could say 'they lived together, they died together, they were resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where Christ sat at the right hand of God. --- Colossians 3:1. --- And Jesus became our High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek in the Sanctuary, or new "Prayer room" in heaven. --- Hebrews 8:1-2.
　
--- Sorry, it is a little long, but I wanted to get it all in, and it may propmt more questions.
　

Sorry, but this isn't right. Again, another interpretation. That's fine, it's allowed, but it's incorrect. Yeshua (Jesus)is the Word. He is God in flesh. Yeshua (Jesus) was there in the beginning. If you read Job 38:4-42 and even further, God is questioning Job. "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?"
If you look at Proverbs 8:22-36, where it begins, "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
This is speaking of Jesus.
"I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there ever was an earth. When He prepared the Heavens, I was there. When He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman. And I was daily His delight. Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. Now therefore listen to me my children, for blessed are those who keep my ways.... whoever finds ME finds life. Um.... this is Jesus speaking.
If you read Genesis 18:1- the Lord appeared to Abraham as three men, not one.
Also, the Lord of Host (Angels) is Yeshua. He is the one in Revelations on the white horse, carrying a bow. No arrow he possesses, his words is the weapon.