An Earnest Inquiry

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QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#41
What do you mean by "while I was still living in it"? Are you saying that you are free from sin now?

And you said you used to listen to Paul Washer. What exactly do you mean; and if you stopped, what was the reason?

Thanks
I thought after that I should have corrected how I said that.

I am free because Christ has said so. But my faith has not yet taken hold of the promise fully. But I see God working in me, and I am changing and acting more from my heart. Still a ways to go, but my faith has grown greatly.

Now God is speaking to me about love, loving Him. If I love Him, I will trust Him.

And why not listen to Paul Washer? Well, it does have to do with the fact that - as he says himself - he only has about 5 sermons to his name. I also just learned that I am no longer under the Law of Sin and Death. So I am trying to get away from being hammered, and just rest in faith instead. Paul Washer is great for people who aren't serious about God, to bring them under conviction. But not for believers who want to rest in faith.

Quest
 
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QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
20
38
#42
And why not listen to Paul Washer? Well, it does have to do with the fact that - as he says himself - he only has about 5 sermons to his name. I also just learned that I am no longer under the Law of Sin and Death. So I am trying to get away from being hammered, and just rest in faith instead. Paul Washer is great for people who aren't serious about God, to bring them under conviction. But not for believers who want to rest in faith.
This is a preacher that preaches a true living faith (suitable for serious audiences):

Everything Outside of Christ is Rubbish by Zac Poonen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0QePR44tZM

Quest
 
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dane_g87

Guest
#43
And why not listen to Paul Washer? Well, it does have to do with the fact that - as he says himself - he only has about 5 sermons to his name. I also just learned that I am no longer under the Law of Sin and Death. So I am trying to get away from being hammered, and just rest in faith instead. Paul Washer is great for people who aren't serious about God, to bring them under conviction. But not for believers who want to rest in faith.
Do you ever sin?

Where did you hear that Paul said himself that he has only 5 sermons to his name? Can you show me this exact quote? Because I have many more than 5 sermons that are all accredited to his name. He is an elder at First Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. I have friends that attend the church and they've heard many of his sermons, more than 5. And these sermons have been recorded, as all the sermons preached at the church are recorded and uploaded to the internet. As a matter of fact, Paul Washer's own official website lists many more than 5 sermons all officially accredited to his name (http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/resources/sermons/Paul_Washer).

What do you mean by "being hammered"? And what do you mean by "rest in faith"?

And can you explain why Paul Washer's expository preaching is not suitable for "mature" believers?
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
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#44

I feel I am under interrogation, but I will answer.

I do things that are contrary to the Law. But I am not under the Law of Sin and Death, I don't have to keep it. The devil tells us to gather straw and make bricks. Jesus said His burden is light.

God has promised to give me a heart that is directed toward His statutes, and He promised that He will cause me to walk in obedience (Ezek 36). The fruits of the Spirit - when they exist in a man - will cause holiness without thought. My faith will grasp His promise yet.


Where did you hear that Paul said himself that he has only 5 sermons to his name? Can you show me this exact quote?
In one of his videos he jokes that his sermons are all about the same topic saying: I only have about 5 sermons to my name; which are all about getting the churches to wake up. It's just a joke that he makes, but it's really true, because all of his sermons - that I have heard anyway - all sound the same. Sorry, I don't remember which sermon it was. I found it on YouTube.

What do you mean by "being hammered"? And what do you mean by "rest in faith"?
When we read God's Word, it brings conviction. When I got that conviction in the past, I would set about trying to keep the Law. I would gather my straw and make bricks. Everyday I would come to God and ask if I made enough bricks, but I felt I had never made enough and so God didn't accept me.

What I need is to get away from being hammered by satan telling me that I need to make more bricks. I need to rest in Christ's finished work, and allow Him to "Cause me to walk" Ezek 36. Hebrews 4 explains resting in faith. It's resting from our works, our efforts to obey.


And can you explain why Paul Washer's expository preaching is not suitable for "mature" believers?
Well, you have heard sermons on different topics from him than I have. I'm talking about him attacking churchianity over and over. It's good to hear messages like that from time to time, but a steady diet is repetitive. I get much more from Zac Poonen than from any other preacher I have seen on YouTube.

I would recommend too, to check out some Keith Green preaching.
He attacked Churchianity with excellent results, but he did it in the most gentle way.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Quest
 
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dane_g87

Guest
#45
Well, in a way you are "under interrogation" as we are commanded to "test all things," just as I should be and anyone else. And there are some things I don't quite understand so I ask for greater clarification. Thank you with your willingness to bear with me..and I plead with you to bear with me here (I know this post is long) and if you had any questions regarding my theology I would return the same.

By "I do things that are contrary to the Law" you mean sin, right?

Concerning the comment that Paul Washer had only 5 sermons to his name, it seems then that indeed that was a joke. Paul Washer is an elder at a local church and an itinerate pastor as well. He has multitudes of sermons and he does not always preach on the same thing. If you were to visit that link I gave, Paul Washer has various sermons regarding missions, explaining the cross, biblical assurance, dating & courtship, equipment of the saints, explaining faith, and explaining the glory of God. These are the ones listed on Heartcry and he has many more elsewhere on the internet. The reason he said it appears as though he only preaches the same thing is because of the popularity he's received from his famous "Shocking Youth Message." Since then he's been known to speak out against the many errors in what America calls "the church" and many people flock to these same messages because of the shock value. He does speak indepth on many other important biblical issues that are very well meat for mature believers.

I don't know why you would want to run away from conviction. Conviction is a God-given gift, it is exceedingly useful and the means through which the Holy Spirit condemns the sin in our lives. The Bible says this conviction from the heart is one of the tests that determine if one is a Christian or not (1 John 3:20). This conviction is absolutely necessary because the Bible describes the Christian walk as one of violence, battles, struggles, and pressing on. If one is absent from conviction they are unable to fight, and if one is not fighting, then they are not a Christian - otherwise all those words in Scripture are lies. Jesus said it is the "violent" who take the kingdom by force, and that we must be tearing out eyes and cutting off hands, through many trials enter into the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 11:12, 5:29-30, Acts 14:22).

Countless times in the New Testament we are warned to beware of:
- false doctrine or hypocrisy (Matthew 16:6)
- sin (Luke 12:15)
- causing others to stumble (1 Corinthians 8:9)
- unbelief (Acts 13:40-41)
- false teachers (Colossians 2:8, Philippians 3:2)
- an evil heart springing forth in you (Hebrews 3:12)
- falling away (2 Peter 3:17)

We are warned to take heed for fear of:
- the light in us being darkness (Luke 11:35)
- letting sin go unchecked (Luke 17:3
- us becoming weighed down with sensuality (Luke 21:34
- us falling away (1 Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 4:16)

We are warned to fear:
- God who has the power to destroy us in Hell (Luke 12:5)
- lest we fall into unbelief and arrogance and be condemned (Romans 11:20; Hebrews 4:1)

We are told to:
- remain vigilant because Satan is seeking to destroy us (1 Peter 5:8)
- strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men (Acts 24:16)
- discipline ourselves lest we fall away (1 Corinthians 9:27)

As you can see the course of the Christian life is not easy or relaxed. It is one of diligence, vigilance, careful following after the Lord "in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:13). In Ezekiel 36:27 God says those whom He saves "will be careful to observe His ordinances." Jesus described this road to be "narrow" with only "few" who find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Therefore since walking in the truth is "like walking on a razor blade", so easy to fall to the left or right, accountability in the church, accountability in the conscience (conviction) is absolutely necessary.

Listening to godly and biblically sound, expository preaching that convicts the hearers of sin should not be shunned but embraced; and it most certainly is not reached through Satan, and it does not generate anyone to believe that they must do anything in order to be saved. If that is what you are getting, then you have not gotten it from Paul Washer's preaching; you've gotten it from something else - Satan putting thoughts into your mind, your own sin perhaps, or what have you. I'm talking about the source here.

When one becomes a Christian, they do not have to keep the law in order to be saved. Christ's work on the cross alone is what saves a person, justifies them, and declares them righteous before God. However, when one becomes a Christian, God writes His law on their hearts and causes them to strive after honoring it. Now the Law of Christ is not the same as the Law of Moses; therefore when one is saved, they are not led to keep the Old Covenant style law. The Law of Moses is fulfilled in Christ and is actually elevated; as Moses forbade murder, Christ forbids hatred; as Moses forbade adultery, Christ forbids lust. Moses required 10%, Jesus requires 100%. The striving for the law of Christ is not done in order to gain salvation, but because one has gained salvation already. Obedience to Christ is a fruit and evidence of the salvation only Christ has achieved. Without works faith is useless (James 2:20). Works is not the cause, but the evidence of the grace of God through faith.

When Jesus said His burden is light, He is referring to what Jesus requires of His people. The commandments of Christ are not a burden. Anyone who thinks the commandments are a burden needs to examine himself as to whether they're actually in the faith. God says His commandments aren't a burden. What a burden is, on the other hand, is sin and unrighteousness. Bondage to sin is what the burden is, not slavery to Christ.

I would say it is quite dangerous to pledge your allegiance to any one or few men regardless of the message they preach. The reason for this is because God hasn't visited just one man; He is working through multitudes and our allegiance and joy is in His word preached, not the men alone. Therefore you should expand your sphere of influence so that it is not centered on one man.

Last thing I will say, from the verse you quoted in Hebrews 4, the "rest from works." It does not mean that we live a relaxed and complacent lifestyle. We rest from any works by which we try to justify ourselves. We can give that struggle up as it is impossible to please God and be justified by deeds of the law. In this we rest completely and utterly. However, as we rest from striving to be accepted by God, we, from a renewed and resurrected life given to us by God in Christ, strive to do the will of God, keep His commandments, and do all for His glory. Ephesians 2:10 says God's people are His workmanship, created and redeemed in order to bring forth good works which God had prepared for us to walk in. Philippians 2:12 tells us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" - salvation being sanctification, not justification.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#46
I am afraid Dane_G87, that I do not know how to strive as you suggest, without going into legalism.

Perhaps you are correct in these things, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure things out, now that I am not under the Law.

My understanding is, that for every command in the Bible, God gives us a promise that we will fulfill them by His Righteousness. How I can resolve that through making any effort on my part I do not understand. I don't understand how that God will "cause me to walk according to his statutes" while I am somehow determining to walk in His statutes. I've already tried walking in His statutes and I just fail. But, just trusting Him, looking to Him, I have felt conviction at times, a conviction that actually brings about a change that I never could bring about through determination to obey.

All I understand is the experience of the old saints, where they have an experience that changes them inwardly, and that obedience then flows naturally from them. Moved by God's love, they fulfill the Law because it is all that their hearts desire.

I believe of course that the scriptures you give are good food for a person who has rested fully in a living faith in Christ. Because those people - eager in their hearts to please God - will take His commandments and eagerly adhere to them, because they want to, and not because they have to.

Quest
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#47
I am afraid Dane_G87, that I do not know how to strive as you suggest, without going into legalism.

Perhaps you are correct in these things, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure things out, now that I am not under the Law.

My understanding is, that for every command in the Bible, God gives us a promise that we will fulfill them by His Righteousness. How I can resolve that through making any effort on my part I do not understand. I don't understand how that God will "cause me to walk according to his statutes" while I am somehow determining to walk in His statutes. I've already tried walking in His statutes and I just fail. But, just trusting Him, looking to Him, I have felt conviction at times, a conviction that actually brings about a change that I never could bring about through determination to obey.

All I understand is the experience of the old saints, where they have an experience that changes them inwardly, and that obedience then flows naturally from them. Moved by God's love, they fulfill the Law because it is all that their hearts desire.

I believe of course that the scriptures you give are good food for a person who has rested fully in a living faith in Christ. Because those people - eager in their hearts to please God - will take His commandments and eagerly adhere to them, because they want to, and not because they have to.

Quest
I believe we exercise the faith God has given us to trust in his Son. It is when we realise that we ourselves are incable of doing the changing and trust in Jesus the real life changing occurs in us

Biblically if we conciously strive to obey law we will become worse sinners. And Biblically again those who live by faith in Christ and not law will sin far less than those who do.

Jesus was hounded as a lawbreaker by religious people

The first Christian martyr Steven was dragged before the sanhedrin and stoned to death, by religious people. One of the reasone? He was ignoring the law.

Paul said. Broothers if I was still preaching circumcision(ie the law) I would not be persecuted, by religious people. Paul said this was the offence of the cross

As then as now. Human nature will never change. People are offended at the true message of faith. The Pharisees and Saducees were proud people. They had to believe they couldd earn there way to Heaven by law keeping and their own effort as many do today.

Trtue faith in Christ, not our own strength will always be the offence of the cross.
 
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dane_g87

Guest
#48
Both of you are putting the cart before the horse and treating like something I am completely against.

livingbygrace, please explain to me how you are to carry out Paul's command in Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Please explain how you would do this, as Paul didn't write it for the wind. He wrote it expecting the people to whom he was writing to "obey much more in his absence."
 
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oopsies

Guest
#49
You are very cut and dried in these matters Dane, as I was once also. I used to preach hardcore against sin, while I was still living in it. I also used to listen to Paul Washer.

Since God has been working on my heart of late, I have begun to see faith as the most important thing. A living faith causes people to love their Lord - and so without any thought to themselves - they go about trying to please God. They have the fruits of the Spirit within them:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Anyone who has these fruits will obey God, without any thought toward God's Law. How can it be otherwise? The fruits - if they exist - will cause a man to always walk in obedience to God, without any striving or determination. We are dead to the Law, and this is how God achieves our obedience.

I have seen people in this forum who are in great error in their theological beliefs. They don't not talk the Bible lingo and thus appear to be Antinomians from the first five glances. But then I see their faith. I see that they pray and something happens. I see their words - without correct understanding - yet filled with love for their Savior. These people really love and trust God.

I'll leave off with a quote from John Wesley:

Quest
I am surprised by your admissions but I am also very happy for you. It is always more effective to live in faith and have others see that compared to simply telling them how it all works.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
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#50
hi,
in order to remain strong, you need to feed your spiritual self. how to do that is to read the Bible and pray every day. associate with friends who are christian and strive for righteousness. attend church regularly and try to get involved in youth activities; join the choir, ministry, club etc. hope you have an interesting and wonderful walk with God, and if you should fall never give up cuz God doesn't give up on you. God bless and take care
I hope and pray Beta7 that the scriptures will lead you to realize you are weak, not help you to "remain strong." The Law is a taskmaster to bring you to faith in Christ. So long as you think you can keep God's Law and strengthen yourself by Bible time, prayer, and church attendance, you will fall short of faith in Christ.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
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#51
I am surprised by your admissions but I am also very happy for you. It is always more effective to live in faith and have others see that compared to simply telling them how it all works.
Böhler says,' I took a walk with the elder Wesley, and asked him about his spiritual state. He told me that he sometimes felt certain of his salvation, but sometimes he had many doubts; that he could only say this, "If what stands in the Bible be true, then I am saved." Thereupon I spoke with him very fully, and earnestly besought him to go to the opened fountain, and not to mar the efficacy of free grace by his unbelief.' Immediately, he says, it struck into his mind to leave off preaching, for how could he preach to others who had not faith himself! Appealing to Böhler, he received for answer, 'By no means: preach faith till you have it, and then, because you have it, you will preach it.'

Quest
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#52
Both of you are putting the cart before the horse and treating like something I am completely against.

livingbygrace, please explain to me how you are to carry out Paul's command in Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Please explain how you would do this, as Paul didn't write it for the wind. He wrote it expecting the people to whom he was writing to "obey much more in his absence."
Hi Dane

Well to answer your question. Spurgeon says our salvation is worked out by faith in Jesus(as you know) and the Holy Spirit will sanctify us. My fear and trembling would be if I took my eyes off Jesus, I know then I would be doomed, petryfying thought! and enough to make me fear and trembly.

The only way to truly obey God is to trust in Jesus.

As the song says

Trust and obey
for there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus
But to trust and obey.

And you know, it gives me such peace to know that my salvation is secure, because it doesn't depend on me keeping it by my own effort or personal strength, it is Christ who keeps me with Him.

As Spurgeon also says. It is Christ's responsibility to bchange us, not ours.

What a wonderful God we have. He gave us a righteoiusness we did nothing to earn, His Son paid the price for us, God gave us the faith to believe from the fountain of grace, and Jesus changes us, and the Holy Spirit is the powerr in our lives.

To God be all the Glory, greast things he has done
 
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oopsies

Guest
#53
Böhler says,' I took a walk with the elder Wesley, and asked him about his spiritual state. He told me that he sometimes felt certain of his salvation, but sometimes he had many doubts; that he could only say this, "If what stands in the Bible be true, then I am saved." Thereupon I spoke with him very fully, and earnestly besought him to go to the opened fountain, and not to mar the efficacy of free grace by his unbelief.' Immediately, he says, it struck into his mind to leave off preaching, for how could he preach to others who had not faith himself! Appealing to Böhler, he received for answer, 'By no means: preach faith till you have it, and then, because you have it, you will preach it.'

Quest
Preaching faith does not equal to preaching to correct people's wrongs. :) Böhler is talking about preaching the Gospel.
 
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dane_g87

Guest
#54
Quest needs to topple his idol of Wesley before he can see clearly to discuss, let alone understand, biblical theology.
 
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oopsies

Guest
#55
Quest needs to topple his idol of Wesley before he can see clearly to discuss, let alone understand, biblical theology.
If I were a moderator, I would have deleted your conceited comment.
 
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dane_g87

Guest
#56
It's a good thing you are not a moderator as you lack much discernment.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
20
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#57
Preaching faith does not equal to preaching to correct people's wrongs. :) Böhler is talking about preaching the Gospel.
And preaching the gospel involves correcting people's wrong beliefs, else how can they understand it? You should read the account of Wesley's revival, the debates he had to have to correct beliefs throughout the entire remainder of his life. Your statement is so contrary to everything that these saints had to do all of their lives; debating theology and defending the truth against corruption.

I am quite hurt by this response of yours. With this "don't judge" attitude, you instantly dismiss every scripture in the Bible that tells us to offer correction. Love corrects Oopsies, apathy allows people to go to hell.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
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#58
If I were a moderator, I would have deleted your conceited comment.
His comment is not offensive to me.

Psalm 141:5 (King James Version)
5Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

Even if a prostitute walks up to me and offers me a reproof for my behavior, I ought to have a soft enough heart to hear what she is saying and change if necessary.

This isn't to say that I agree with Dane's Reproof, but I must consider it.


Quest
 
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charm1110

Guest
#59
Thank you Beta 7 for your comments, They are sound advice on "How-to" get fed in the spirit. As Christians we do need to fellowship with other believers, pray, and study the Word in order to grow in maturity and we will develop the ability to discern the truth. I am starting to go outside of the Church I am a member of as it is just the same people saying the same things. It is complacent and hinders my growth.