Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

bluto · Oct 27, 2016

Wecome to the forums victoria. And your right, what placid said is incorrect. Regarding Proverbs 8 and specifically vs 22 the "Arians" who would be the jehovah witnesses today use Proverbs 8 to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being and He is not God in flesh. In other words, they deny He is "theos/God" like John 1:1 states.

Now, the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdom and in fact wisdom is referred to a "her" at vs1 and at other places including Proverbs 9:1. Of course we know Jesus Christ is not "her." We also know that "wisdom" is intrinsic with God which means there was never a time when God was "wisdomless" or without wisdom. This means that Jesus, in his humanity, is the human expression of this wisdom. "b ut to hose who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, CHRIST the pwoer of God and the "WISDOM" of God." 1 Corinthians 1:24.

So, just like Jesus Christ is the expression or the physical manifestation of God He is also the expression/personification of the wisdom of God. I would like to clarify what you said about Genesis 18:1 and the rest of the chapter. The Lord appeared to Abraham as a man and the other two men were angels. In fact, the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ before his incarnation and he first appears to Hagar at Genesis 16:7.

Rather than go through the whole chapter of Genesis 18 we see that Abraham was asking the Lord about if He found forty men would He still destroy Sodom. This is at vs29 and you can read for yourself up to vs33. And at vs33, And as soon as He/the Lord had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. Now look at Genesis 19:1. Now the TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was istting in the gate of Sodom." My point is only one man is identified as the Lord and the other two men were indeed angels.

The other thing you said was this: "Also, the Lord of Host (Angels) is Yeshua." The Lord of Host is Yeshua/Jesus Christ but He is not an angel. The word in Hebrew for angel is "malak." It has two meanings depending on how it is used in context. It can indeed refer to real angels like Michael of Gabriel but it can also mean "messenger." The angel of the Lord who appeares only in the Old Testament is the "messenger" of the Lord and not a real angel. Like I said, it is determined by the context. Does this makes sense to you victoria?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

VictoriaLS · Oct 27, 2016

Sorry if I confused you in my writing, but I didn't mean that Jesus was an angel, I meant the host of angels.

VictoriaLS · Oct 27, 2016

Does not Jesus come back to earth in the end times with a league (host) of angels?

bluto · Oct 27, 2016

Yes He does! At Matthew 24:30,31 and Matthew 13:41 they are mentioned as well as in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

VictoriaLS · Oct 27, 2016

Exactly, Jesus is from everlasting. Even in Proverbs 8:22- it states he is eternal.

Placid · Oct 28, 2016

Hi Bluto,
Quote from Post 1178
I get all that placid, "BUT" is not the "Word/Logos" Jesus Christ according to John 1:1-14 who became flesh or are you saying the "Word/Logos" is the spoken word of God, like in speaking/speech?

Response: --- I had said that in Malachi 3:1 the LORD of hosts said, "I am coming," --- then He said, "Behold, He is coming," referring to Christ.

In John 1, it gives a history of the Word in the creation of our world and everything in it, that pertains to mankind.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Theov), and the Word was God (Theos).
2 He was in the beginning with God (Theov).
3 "All things were made through Him (the Word)," and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him (the Word) was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light (from God) which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He (the Word) was in the world, and "the world was made through Him," and the world did not know Him.
11 He (the Word) came to His own (creation), and His own (people) did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him (the Word, God, through the preaching of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ), --- to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --- (Who were born of God, or born of the Spirit), in John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
　
1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- The Word became flesh, --- (as the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, act together, so was the case in the miraculous birth of Jesus. --- Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."
--- The Father decided, --- and the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) 'overshadowed' Mary, in creating a new Being,--- and the Holy Spirit gave Spiritual life. --- The angel said, "That Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God."
And Jesus was called the (earthly) Son of God, in a body of flesh and blood.
　
1:15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’"
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
--- While Jesus was born of Mary, --- Christ existed before and came down from heaven to indwell Jesus and speak through Him.
(It was evident that John honored Jesus above himself when Jesus came to John to be baptized in Matthew 3:
14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.)
　
--- Now this verse is the one that verifies verse 1, God (Theov) --- and 'the Word was with God and the Word was God' (Theos).
John 1:18 No one has seen God (Theov) at any time. The only begotten Son, (the Word) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
18 NASB No one has seen God (Theov) at any time; the only begotten God (Theos) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

So Jesus Christ was the visible Son of God and represented God in all things on earth.
And Jesus said in John 9:
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- But after the crucifixion, Jesus was no longer in the world, --- and the FOCUS was on Christ.

Placid · Oct 28, 2016

I want to show what the Scriptures say about Jesus and what 'Role' He played on earth, before He was exalted to heaven as our High Priest, and given a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow.
--- And Peter said in Acts 4:
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

In the OT it says God is the only Savior, which is true, God is our Savior as well, --- but in the NT, the name Jesus means Savior. We must believe in God, and then God saves us, 'through accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.' --- As we read the Gospels we fall in love with Jesus, because He is our Hero. --- He paid the price for our sin and brought in our salvation, --- but He was called a Servant.

We will start in Isaiah 52:
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
For what had not been told them they shall see, And what they had not heard they shall consider.
　
53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
　
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
　
10 "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him" --- I don't believe that God took pleasure in the suffering of Jesus, but
11 "He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied."
--- The Scripture says, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." --- So the death of Jesus as a Sacrifice for sin, "Satisfied the requirements of the Law."
　
After His death, what did the Apostles say about Him? --- Peter said, after a lame man was healed, in Acts 3:
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
　
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

--- Peter and John were arrested and put in jail over night, then they were commanded not to speak any more in Jesus' name, in Acts 4:
23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.
24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,"
27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

So Jesus was God's Holy Servant to bring in salvation, for all who will believe.
　

notbythesword · Oct 28, 2016

bluto said:

I’ve heard Trinitarians say many times, how Proverbs 8:22 is referring to the “attributes of wisdom”, rather than about Christ. Let’s just review the passage and then substitute the “I”, “me”, and “my” with “Christ” and then with “wisdom”. Let’s see which one makes more sense and is more fitting. From the HCSB, Proverbs 8:22-36

Original rendering: “The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race. “And now, my sons, listen to me; those who keep my ways are happy. Listen to instruction and be wise; don’t ignore it. Anyone who listens to me is happy, watching at my doors every day, waiting by the posts of my doorway. For the one who finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord, but the one who misses me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”

Christ rendering: “The Lord made Christ at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. Christ was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. Christ was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. Christ was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. Christ was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. Christ was a skilled craftsman beside Him. Christ was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. Christ was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race. “And now, my sons, listen to me; those who keep Christ’s ways are happy. Listen to instruction and be wise; don’t ignore it. Anyone who listens to Christ is happy, watching at my doors every day, waiting by the posts of my doorway. For the one who finds Christ finds life and obtains favor from the Lord, but the one who misses Christ harms himself; all who hate Christ love death.

Wisdom rendering: “The Lord made wisdom at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. Wisdom was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. Wisdom was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. Wisdom was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. Wisdom was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. Wisdom was a skilled craftsman beside Him. Wisdom was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. Wisdom was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race. “And now, my sons, listen to me; those who keep wisdoms ways are happy. Listen to instruction and be wise; don’t ignore it. Anyone who listens to wisdom is happy, watching at wisdoms doors every day, waiting by the posts of wisdoms doorway. For the one who finds wisdom finds life and obtains favor from the Lord, but the one who misses wisdom harms himself; all who hate wisdom love death.”

I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to go with this passage talking about Christ and not wisdom.

NarrowRoadDisciple · Oct 28, 2016

VictoriaLS said:

Perhaps, but He is also returning with an army of saints as well

Jude 1:14-15 NKJV
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

royalscot · Oct 28, 2016

bluto said:

The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."

First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.

He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.

So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?

1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship

The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.

I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God?

Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"

Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)

How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.

Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.

Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.

Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

follow history of years , and the eras that intoduced ,a god, son, holy spirit. sorry you would need a history of the past to get a answer, yet are to busy thinking pea brians are the same as you speculation . lol

bluto · Oct 28, 2016

Come on sword, look at what you just said, "I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to go with this passage talking about Christ and not wisdom." This is not the game show "The Price Is Right" where you get to pick door number 2 as the version you think is correct?

By all means, please tell me on what basis you think door number 2, (The Christ) version is the correct one?

I mean do you know anything about Biblical hermanuetics? Have you not heard the expression, "That's your interpretation?" This "assumes" that your interpretation is correct and the rest are wrong. That is not how it works. The Scriptures DO NOT contradict themselves. When we disagree, your view may not be correct and mine may not be correct. In fact, both of us can be wrong but both of us cannot be right at the same time in the same place.

To be clear, there may be thousands of "applications of a given text, BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT MEANING. So again sword, please tell me how you know you have the right interpretation of Proverbs 8?

And oh yea, please correct me if I'm wrong but don't you deny that Jesus Christ is God Almighty?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

notbythesword · Oct 28, 2016

bluto said:

Lol bluto. I just showed you, with an example given, of why I believe Proverbs 8:22 that way. It sounds like you view the only “correct meaning” as your meaning. In your mind, if someone does not agree with your views, then surely they must not understand the meaning of hermeneutical reasoning. Also, you already know from many prior posts that I identify God as the Father, so I’m not sure why you are asking again.

Just because we may not see eye to eye on certain topics, does not mean that I do not know how to reason, nor does it mean that I have any less of an understanding in ways of which to reason. This is my personal opinion and yes, I know what Hermeneutics means.

bluto · Oct 28, 2016

notbythesword said:

No sword, we don't see "eye to eye" on this issue. Furthermore, it's not about "my view" but what the text says and teaches. You told me you like the "passage/interpretation of Christ which means you like the second view. What they did was insert the name of Christ in the verses and that is "assuming" that His name should be in there which btw, is adding to Gods' word.

Proverbs 8:22 explicitly states, "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way," Where is the name Christ in that sentence? How do you know that the sentence is not referring to "wisdom" and not Christ? You said you knew about "hermaneutics" so let's go back to the beginning or Proverbs 8 starting at vs1.Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift us HER voice?

This means sword that the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdom and the writer of Proverbs clearly identifies wisdom as a female. Look at vs2 and vs3, "Where the paths meet SHE takes here stand." Vs3, "At the entrance of the doors, SHE cries out." All this is known as "Anthropomorphic" language. It means, "described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes."

And look at all the "she's" and "her's" at Proverbs 9. Vs1, Wisdom has built HER house, SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars." Vs2, SHE has prepared HER food, SHE has missed HER wine, SHE has also set HER table." Do I need to continue in order for you to get the point? And for the record, I did not say anything about you not knowing how to "reason?" I'm more concerned with you "thinking" about what is said before you post. And btw, you did not answer my question? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty? I had forgotten what you said?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

notbythesword · Oct 28, 2016

bluto said:

I think you’re misunderstanding my 1188 post. The issue was that you believed Proverbs 22 was talking about wisdom. I believe that it is talking about Christ. I myself changed (as an example) the “I”, “me” and “my” within the passage to show how it would read with either the word “Christ” or “wisdom” as the identifying words. I used the original passage, then the passage with Christ, and then the passage with wisdom.

I tried to show how the passage would sound between both of our understandings of it. This would show the contrast between both of our opinions. By the way, why is it ok for you to have an opinion about this passage as talking about wisdom, yet if someone else views it differently, they are told that this is not the game show “the price is right”? Your opinions are ok but others opinions equate to a game show to you? Sounds somewhat egotistical to me.

I identify God as the Father. I view Jesus as the Divine Son of God. I view the Holy Spirit as the Spirit and Power of God Himself, whom I identify as the Father. I believe that it is “through” the Son, that we reach the Father. That it is “through” the Son, that we a saved. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I know this may not be what is most popular with the mainstream, but it is my personal view.

bluto · Oct 28, 2016

notbythesword said:

Again sword, your not listening. I am "NOT" giving you my opinion, I am giving you what the text actually says. I purposefully went through the trouble of starting at Proverbs 8:1 and showed the subject of the Proverb is wisdom. I also showed why it is about wisdom because wisdom is identified with feminine words like "she" and "her." Christ is not a she or a her now is He? This also means I am not being"egotistical" but rather sensible by taking the words for what they mean.

The other thing that you and the "Arains/Unitarians" and others is to attribute Proverbs 8:22-36 to show that Jesus Christ is a created being and that right there makes your argument incorrect and void because Jesus Christ was not created but eternally existed His incarnation as God.

And regarding your last paragraph, I do agree with you that no one can come to the Father except by Jesus Christ. However, this does not preclude Jesus Christ from being God, and tons of verses attest to that fact. What your really doing is denying Jesus Christ is God and then to make matters worse you think God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. What you are doing is advocating "Modalism" which is what the oneness pentecostal cult believes. In short, you got your own problems sword. I also notice you keep saying, "This is my opinion" or "This is how I understand it" or "This is my personal view."

Opinions, views, understand etc. has to be based on something other than whay you may think is right. Proof is evidence and the things you advocate are "subjective" in nature and not proof. I'm really trying to help you here because I remember from your very first post you stated words to the effect of, "I'm just trying to understand." Now your at the state from me reading your post that you do understand but not according to "wisdom." The pun is intended!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

VCO · Oct 28, 2016

VictoriaLS said:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

That is one of the MANY reasons that I absolutely believe in a Pre-Trib calling of all of His saints to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven, during the Great Tribulation here on Earth.

VCO · Oct 28, 2016

VictoriaLS said:

Does anyone besides me find the 5 minute editing rule irritatingly too short? Here is what I meant that last post to be:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

That is one of the MANY reasons that I absolutely believe in a Pre-Trib calling of all of His saints to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven, during the Great Tribulation here on Earth.

Good read on Prov. 8:22, This will confirm it.

John 17:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Placid · Oct 29, 2016

Hi VCO,
　
Quote from Post 1179:
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)

[SUP]10 "You are My witnesses"— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— "and My servant whom
I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He.
No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Response: --- Yes, in the OT it says different places that God is our Savior. --- And God is our only Savior in the NT, --- but through accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord. --- However, in this context in Isaiah, God was proclaiming that He was God, and was the only Savior for the Jews, who were becoming unfaithful to Him and were starting to follow the Pagans in idolatry.[/SUP]
[SUP]
--- So God is calling them to account. --- To show the emphasis I have used the Amplified Bible starting here in Isaiah 43:
9 All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled.
Who among them (the idolaters) can predict this [that Judah would return from captivity] And proclaim to us the former events?
Let them provide their witnesses so that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say [in acknowledgement], "It is the truth."
10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11 "I, [only] I, am the Lord, And there is no Savior besides Me.
12 "I have declared [the future] and saved [the nation] and proclaimed [that I am God],
And there was no strange god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses [among the pagans]," declares the Lord,
"That I am God."
　
10 "You (Jews) are my witnesses (among the pagans), and My servant whom I have chosen."
--- God had chosen the Jews to be a righteous people before God, to influence the Pagan nations to believe in God and receive His blessings, as the Jews did. --- But instead, the wayward Jews were following the Pagans, so God is asking "Can the Pagan gods predict the future, or save you?" --- So God said:
11 "I, [only] I, am the Lord, And there is no Savior besides Me.

　
　
Philippians 3:20 (HCSB)

20 but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
　
Response: --- The context of the verse in the Amplified Bible, Philippians 3:
17 Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you.
18 For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation],
19 whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame—who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things.
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.
--- Compare Colossians 3:
1 Therefore if you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, sharing in His resurrection from the dead], keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind and keep focused habitually on the things above [the heavenly things], not on things that are on the earth [which have only temporal value].
3 For you died [to this world], and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
　

John 20:28 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Response: --- Again in context from John 20:
19 So when it was evening on that same day, the first day of the week, though the disciples were [meeting] behind barred doors for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace to you."
20 After He said this, He showed them His hands and His side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with great joy.
21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you [as My representatives]."

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve [disciples], who was called Didymus (the twin), was not with them when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples kept telling him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the marks of the nails, and put my finger into the nail prints, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe."
26 Eight days later His disciples were again inside the house, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though the doors had been barred, and stood among them and said, "Peace to you."
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and put out your hand and place it in My side. Do not be unbelieving, but [stop doubting and] believe."
28 Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, do you now believe? Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, and favored by God] are they who did not see [Me] and yet believed [in Me]."

--- Thomas the doubter was the weakest link among the Apostles at that time, and had expressed his unbelief. --- When Christ appeared in a resurrected body that could appear in their midst, he believed without touching Him.
It was his expression, "My Lord and my God." --- but neither Jesus nor Christ said they were God, did they?
　
　
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[/SUP][SUP]Response: --- Yes, "God was in Christ," which identifies Him with the name Immanuel in Matthew 1:23, which is interpreted "God with us."
　
Something to think about. God was in Christ, who came down from heaven to indwell Jesus and live through Him. --- But it doesn't say , "God was in Jesus."
So Jesus meant Savior, and Christ meant Messiah, And God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, as it says in 1Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (who believe) shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

[/SUP]

notbythesword · Oct 29, 2016

bluto said:

Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on Proverbs 8:22. We obviously do not agree on the meaning of that passage, nevertheless I still respect your opinion. However, I’m not sure why you would think that I believe in Modalism.

Just to clarify, Modalism is the belief that God fully exists in one person at a time. In one mode at a time. Either the Father, Son, or the Spirit becomes fully God. Thus, there is only the one person of God, rather than the three that Trinitarians believe in. I do not hold to that view. I view God as the Father alone…no other modes.

Modalism actually tends to be a more common mistake amongst Trinitarians who are confused in the actual meaning of the trinity. But hey, why wouldn’t you expect many to get confused within a doctrine that according to many Trinitarians, "cannot be fully understood", you just have to believe it.

The only similarities between identifying God as the Father alone and Modalism, would be the belief of God being a singular person rather than a three person combo. However, if God is identified as the Father alone, then that cannot be Modalism.

Regarding my introductory question, I was being sarcastic, as I gave you a slew of verses showing Paul identifying God specifically as the Father. I was showing you how the Apostles identified God as being the Father and asking if you could tell me why that was.

By the way, if you view the Holy Spirit as the third person of God and not simply God’s Spirit and Power…then do you feel like you can pray to this “separate person”? Dear Holy Spirit...etc? Where in scripture do you find this “person” having a unique personality? For instance, where can I read about the Spirit having back and forth conversations with the Father?

I believe that the Spirit of God can be anointed or “given” to whomever to receive power, gain knowledge and understanding, perform works, receive healing, receive a helper, but not that it is a separate person with its own unique personality. The Spirit is simply the Spirit and Power of the Father. Not a separate person.

Matthew 3:16-17 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed

Titus 3:5-6 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom "he" poured out on us richly "through" Jesus Christ our Savior,

Romans 5:3-5 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Placid · Oct 29, 2016

Concerning Proverbs 8:
A lot of Solomon's writing is poetic and in this case he almost gives life to the attribute "wisdom."
　
We can look at it from a few angles, --- First it says in verse 26, "Before the Primal dust of the world. I was there."
Suppose the beginning of the universes started with 'primal' dust, --- then there would be a time when Almighty God, the Designer and Architect was there alone, --- because of what it says below:

22 "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
--- This says that God was there, and that there was a beginning, and that 'wisdom' was there from the beginning. --- we follow this down to verse 25:
　
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains bounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;

--- But we see this term used twice, --- "I was brought forth."

24 NIV: When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,

24 Amplified: "When there were no ocean depths I was born, When there were no fountains and springs overflowing with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was born;"
　
So 'wisdom' was brought forth or 'born' in the mind of God before He made anything.
"Wisdom" is an absolute. --- God's 'wisdom' is perfect. --- therefore, He created everything with 'wisdom.'
--- The first and basic Attribute of God was 'wisdom,' --- And Solomon, who also was given 'wisdom' did well, --- but his downfall was in his personal ambitions and desires.
　
--- But wisdom was the Attribute by which God made things perfect, and it says in this verse:
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight; Rejoicing before Him always,
--- So Solomon portrays 'wisdom' as a 'companion' to God.
　
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

When Paul listed the Spiritual gifts given to men, he put 'wisdom' first, in 1 Corinthians 12:
8 "For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit."
And James said also in James 1:
5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

The evidence that it does not refer to Christ, or Jesus, is that 'wisdom' is not capitalized in Proverbs 8.
　
In Isaiah 52:13, where it speaks of Jesus, "Behold, My Servant."
And in Isaiah 53, speaking again of Jesus it says:
2 "For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him."

Again in Isaiah 61, Isaiah gave this prophecy but not about himself:
1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
--- Which was fulfilled in Jesus Christ in Luke 4:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
--- So 'wisdom' in Proverbs 8 --- is just 'wisdom,' is it not?
　

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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