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It's all good sister, I understood your point and I know you aren't defending abortion. I made the same point that we all sin, sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes out of defiance. The main point of accepting Christ as our Savior is that if we sin out of ignorance we will be saved through the blood of Jesus Christ. If what she did is sinful, she will be made clean again. There is not one ounce of malice in her post and therefore I believe she and her family didn't make a decision maliciously. This doesn't mean she made the right decision, it just means she, like us, will be made clean if we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.
People read this and somehow think we are saying, "I support abortion. I defend her murdering her daughter." It's a bit strange honestly.
People read this and somehow think we are saying, "I support abortion. I defend her murdering her daughter." It's a bit strange honestly.
P
I have to defend Utah. Medical ethics and principles focus on the clinician doing "no harm." I don't think you can make the case that abortion is harmless. If anything, his posts show that he really cares about the health and wellness of the unborn child. Since when did it become the role of medical science to terminate pregnancies instead of trying to save the child. How is abortion a fulfillment of the Hippocratic Oath?
I'm just the messenger when I answer your question in bold: It's consistent with the Hippocratic Oath when it involves saving the mother's life. This woman expressed the dangers associated with the decision of carrying the baby to full term. The priority for the doctors is first to the mother, then to the baby. We can disagree with this, but that is how it is.
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Some have gone as far as to exclude parts of her post and made assumptions of a supposed "overriding" reason for making her decision in addition to calling others an "abortion apologist.". It's not exactly edifying.
If it's any consolation, I know you're not championing abortion... I get your point of view.
If it's any consolation, I know you're not championing abortion... I get your point of view.
P
Yes, she made a heart-wrenching decision, but it was the wrong decision. She murdered a life that God created and God is the one who decided when to end that life. I pray she will make it right with God. And you assume a lot when you say some of us have not had to make the same decision, but trusted God, not ourselves.
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Bigger View:
Idolatry in many things (religion, sports, music, entertainment, holiday revelry, excesses in food and drink and fashion, materialism, etc.) Are baits of an evil fisherman who would hook us, play us out til tired and reel us in to do as he pleases. This sort of idolatry leads people to manipulate each other for gain - we can become hooked into the game of idol worship and a new level of play ensues. Sex becomes a tool for manipulation by both genders.
Sex - illicit, predatory, manipulative (fornication) is a fundamental aspect relating to;
* Quid Pro Quo games from the school yard, to the workplace, to the church.
* Adultry which leads us to a divorce problem and victimizes all parties, children included.
* Sexually transmitted diseases - rampant the world over.
* A general social response that may result in turning to homosexuality, bisexuality, trans-gender, fear of marrying or staying married, fear or mistrust of the opposite gender, and more ...
* Unwanted Pregnancies, witch in turn can lead to abortion, an unwanted, or an illegitimate child.
In discussing the positions of "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice" we can be led into an EITHER-OR Fallacy - (EITHER - you're Pro-Life ... OR - you're Pro-Choice). But we do not get to this point without the sex, and too often, sexual sin. The alternative is the loving relationship between life committed man and woman that understands and accepts the facts of sex.
Other aspects and other deceptions of the mind can also come into play, e.g. Pride.
Would a stay at home mom have made a different decision from that of the one under discussion?
This is a different view that is not reactionary (work of the flesh?) but preventive (fruit of the spirit?) that requires societal and personal moral training, discipline, and self control.
The issue was rightly made of taking the larger view. That deserves it's own thread. I posted the OP article as 'news' mostly as an awareness issue. The posting was not made with personal animosity or the intent to spur that. I am thankful for the many thoughtful posts as there are many aspects, personal, societal, political, religious, educational etc. that are a part of the makeup of the human psyche and thus human behavior.
Enough for this post - feel free to start [a] thread(s) on the pathology of sin, the mindsets and actions along that / those paths and the work of The Word along those paths.
Idolatry in many things (religion, sports, music, entertainment, holiday revelry, excesses in food and drink and fashion, materialism, etc.) Are baits of an evil fisherman who would hook us, play us out til tired and reel us in to do as he pleases. This sort of idolatry leads people to manipulate each other for gain - we can become hooked into the game of idol worship and a new level of play ensues. Sex becomes a tool for manipulation by both genders.
Sex - illicit, predatory, manipulative (fornication) is a fundamental aspect relating to;
* Quid Pro Quo games from the school yard, to the workplace, to the church.
* Adultry which leads us to a divorce problem and victimizes all parties, children included.
* Sexually transmitted diseases - rampant the world over.
* A general social response that may result in turning to homosexuality, bisexuality, trans-gender, fear of marrying or staying married, fear or mistrust of the opposite gender, and more ...
* Unwanted Pregnancies, witch in turn can lead to abortion, an unwanted, or an illegitimate child.
In discussing the positions of "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice" we can be led into an EITHER-OR Fallacy - (EITHER - you're Pro-Life ... OR - you're Pro-Choice). But we do not get to this point without the sex, and too often, sexual sin. The alternative is the loving relationship between life committed man and woman that understands and accepts the facts of sex.
Other aspects and other deceptions of the mind can also come into play, e.g. Pride.
Would a stay at home mom have made a different decision from that of the one under discussion?
This is a different view that is not reactionary (work of the flesh?) but preventive (fruit of the spirit?) that requires societal and personal moral training, discipline, and self control.
The issue was rightly made of taking the larger view. That deserves it's own thread. I posted the OP article as 'news' mostly as an awareness issue. The posting was not made with personal animosity or the intent to spur that. I am thankful for the many thoughtful posts as there are many aspects, personal, societal, political, religious, educational etc. that are a part of the makeup of the human psyche and thus human behavior.
Enough for this post - feel free to start [a] thread(s) on the pathology of sin, the mindsets and actions along that / those paths and the work of The Word along those paths.
P
I can agree that there are cases that require the choice of saving one life over another. I'm not saying it is ever an easy decision. We can perhaps make a case for choosing to save the mother ( especially if she has other children), but we can't downplay that we are taking the life of a child. At least if pro abortion advocates admitted that abortion was murder we would have a true debate. Their case should be that murder is sometimes acceptable in specific situations. We could then analyze the specifics of each case and go from there. To say that abortion ( especially late term ) isn't murder is absolutely illogical and pretty much shuts down the potential for an intelligent discussion. I find it ironic how much hate and criticism the young teen mother endured for panicking and dumping her newborn child out a window. That story was trending everywhere on social media. If she had just been smart and had an abortion 5 mins prior to delivery she would have tons of support from pro choice advocates. Murder shouldn't be determined by the difference of minutes.
In times of war or natural disaster tough judgment calls have been made to essentially prioritize life ( not everyone can always be squeezed into a life boat, etc). Sometimes we do have to make the choice to save one life at the expense of another. We are still denying someone the chance to live and have to deal with the consequences. If abortion was only legal for very specific cases we would see so few. Medical practitioners should be held accountable for how quickly and easily they offer abortions. They do regularly violate their oath. Any time an abortion is recommended and advised and the mother is not dying or in critical condition the physician is doing harm. They can claim whatever they want that they have empathy for a patient, but they are destroying life and harming the mother. If a patient insists that he wants all his perfectly sound teeth pulled and a set of dentures made almost no dentists will agree to do this ( I've seen this actually, lol) Real empathy is talking your patient out of harmful choices and refusing to assist them in self harm. How many doctors spend time discouraging abortions and find solutions to help the mother deliver safely? Not all doctors go the extra mile to save patients, regardless of the condition.
Abortions are dangerous for mothers too, physically and psychologically. The recent advances in medicine are incredible. I find it hard to believe that the medical community can't do more to save at risk mothers and fetuses
I've also read many disgusting stories of nurses being threatened with loss of employment if they tried to save babies of botched abortions. The mothers wishes were to be honored. Some couldn't stand watching these babies gasp in pain and disobeyed. How was that not doing harm? I read one heartbreaking account of a nurse who use to hug and say prayers over these babies as they died. To defend abortion and campaign for the laws to not be overturned out of good attentions to protect mothers in dire situations leaves the door open for these other needless atrocities to continuously occur. Roe vs Wade was only passed because of a rape allegation. These laws only can stay on the books because pro choice advocates appeal to our common decency ( no one wants to see a mother die during childbirth or a young teen be forced to carry a child full term after being raped). The pro choice advocates know how to be emotionally manipulative and work on our sympathies.
In times of war or natural disaster tough judgment calls have been made to essentially prioritize life ( not everyone can always be squeezed into a life boat, etc). Sometimes we do have to make the choice to save one life at the expense of another. We are still denying someone the chance to live and have to deal with the consequences. If abortion was only legal for very specific cases we would see so few. Medical practitioners should be held accountable for how quickly and easily they offer abortions. They do regularly violate their oath. Any time an abortion is recommended and advised and the mother is not dying or in critical condition the physician is doing harm. They can claim whatever they want that they have empathy for a patient, but they are destroying life and harming the mother. If a patient insists that he wants all his perfectly sound teeth pulled and a set of dentures made almost no dentists will agree to do this ( I've seen this actually, lol) Real empathy is talking your patient out of harmful choices and refusing to assist them in self harm. How many doctors spend time discouraging abortions and find solutions to help the mother deliver safely? Not all doctors go the extra mile to save patients, regardless of the condition.
Abortions are dangerous for mothers too, physically and psychologically. The recent advances in medicine are incredible. I find it hard to believe that the medical community can't do more to save at risk mothers and fetuses
I've also read many disgusting stories of nurses being threatened with loss of employment if they tried to save babies of botched abortions. The mothers wishes were to be honored. Some couldn't stand watching these babies gasp in pain and disobeyed. How was that not doing harm? I read one heartbreaking account of a nurse who use to hug and say prayers over these babies as they died. To defend abortion and campaign for the laws to not be overturned out of good attentions to protect mothers in dire situations leaves the door open for these other needless atrocities to continuously occur. Roe vs Wade was only passed because of a rape allegation. These laws only can stay on the books because pro choice advocates appeal to our common decency ( no one wants to see a mother die during childbirth or a young teen be forced to carry a child full term after being raped). The pro choice advocates know how to be emotionally manipulative and work on our sympathies.
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H
if that were Gods way sure!! but who are we to decide who he gives life to again? They are murdering His creation and for whatever reason He gives them more to decide what to do with..
I don't like abortion, my friend has had plenty plenty, but God gives life to her still.. Why?
I chose long ago to not hold it against them bc its obviously none of my business
I don't like abortion, my friend has had plenty plenty, but God gives life to her still.. Why?
I chose long ago to not hold it against them bc its obviously none of my business
