what has been fulfilled?

zone · Nov 19, 2016

jospehus said 1,100,000 jews died during the siege.
that number today would be staggering.
in 70AD it was unparalleled in history.
as far as the meta-narrative of scripture, this was the worst tragedy in the history of the Israelite nation, something God well foretold, Jesus spoke the curse upon Jerusalem, and it came to pass.

God's wrath upon Jerusalem (according to His Law, using Titus and the roman armies) was satisfied in the end. Babylon the great harlot was judged and burned by fire.

Luke 19
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
…43For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44They will level you to the ground — you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.” 45Then Jesus entered the temple courts and began to drive out those who were selling there.…

zone · Nov 19, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Daniel 9
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

...

the people [roman military] of the prince [TITUS, later Caesar] who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. [they did, thoroughly]

Titus (Latin: Titus Flāvius Caesar Vespasiānus Augustus;[a] 30 December 39 AD – 13 September 81 AD) was Roman emperor from 79 to 81. A member of the Flavian dynasty, Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death, thus becoming the first Roman Emperor to come to the throne after his own biological father.

Prior to becoming Emperor, Titus gained renown as a military commander, serving under his father in Judea during the First Jewish–Roman War. The campaign came to a brief halt with the death of emperor Nero in 68, launching Vespasian's bid for the imperial power during the Year of the Four Emperors. When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph: the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus

zone · Nov 19, 2016

Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Hebrews 4
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

zone said:

Deuteronomy 22:21
then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

Leviticus 21:9
9Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.

[Young's Literal Translation
'And a daughter of any priest when she polluteth herself by going a-whoring -- her father she is polluting; with fire she is burnt.]

Ahwatukee · Nov 19, 2016

Zone,

What does your response have to do with my post regarding the abomination being set up in the holy place?

zone · Nov 19, 2016

1.Matthew & Mark mention the abomination. Luke, inserts, in the exact place of mentioning the abomination, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". The conclusion is that Luke interpreted the abomination to be fulfilled when Jerusalem surrounded.

2.Standing in the holy place where it should not:
◦It might refer to the temple itself

3.The temple was destroyed near the end of the siege, long after leaving was possible
◦It is more likely the area outside the gates of the city of mount Zion: Ps 24:3

4.The Roman armies were the abomination which causes abomination when they surrounded the city, Christians where given opportunity to leave.

5.Jesus makes reference to the "abomination" prophecy of Daniel: Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:7-13
◦Dan 12:9-11 indicates that the meaning of the prophecy was sealed
◦Mt & Mk insert "(let reader understand)" indicating the meaning was revealed by Jesus
◦Daniel was told the prophecy was sealed until "end time", which therefore was 70AD

B. Historical Fulfillment Possibilities of Daniel's prophecy (Dan 9:27)

1.Antiochus Epiphanes 167 BC
◦1 Maccabees 1:20-22, "After Antiochus had defeated Egypt in the year one hundred and forty-three (167BC), he returned and went up to Israel and to Jerusalem with a strong force. He insolently invaded the sanctuary ... and stripped off everything. V54 the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar."

◦2 Maccabees 6:1-5, "The Temple Desecrated: Not long after this, the king sent an Athenian senator to force the Jews to abandon the customs of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus, the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested. The Gentiles filled the temple with debauchery and revelry; they amused themselves with prostitutes ... even in the sacred court. They also brought into the temple things that were forbidden, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws."

◦Some maintain that Daniel's prophecy was wholly fulfilled in 167 BC.

◦But the words of Mt & Mk, "Let reader understand", indicate some connection between Daniel's prophecy and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus clearly refers the disciples to Daniel's prophecy in regard to the time to flee the city of Jerusalem.

2.Rome 70 AD
◦Josephus, "Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."
◦Some suggest that Josephus was referring to Dan 2:40-44, where the existence of Rome itself was prophesied to come into existence.

◦But the prophecy in Dan 2 says the "kingdom of iron" will shatter previous kingdoms not future. Therefore it is likely that Josephus had the abomination in mind.

◦When the Romans conquered the city of Jerusalem, and entered it, their pagan soldiers entered the temple, (defiling it according to Jewish Law), tore down Jewish ornaments and temple accoutrements, and raised in stead the pagan symbols and Roman standards.

◦Some suggest the abomination was fulfilled when Roman standards and pagan symbols were placed in the temple.

Conclusion:

1. There is absolutely no reason to view the abomination of desolation as some future event, when it was clearly fulfilled in 70 AD!

2. This may not make for exciting TV programming where we misapply current events to Bible prophecy, but it is the truth!
https://www.bible.ca/pre-mt24-abomination.htm

zone · Nov 19, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

after Jesus came (His temple torn down and rebuilt in 3 days); after the city and sanctuary destroyed.....a NEW temple with animal sacrifices etc WOULD BE AN ABOMINATION (not some pope or other guy stopping supposedly cool sacrifices)

zone · Nov 19, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

what do you make of the historical information I have posted?
do you see it in scripture, as fulfilled or not?
not responding to it while continuing to post the same guesswork is just intellectually dishonest.

abcdef · Nov 19, 2016

zone said:

1.Matthew & Mark mention the abomination. Luke, inserts, in the exact place of mentioning the abomination, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". The conclusion is that Luke interpreted the abomination to be fulfilled when Jerusalem surrounded.

2.Standing in the holy place where it should not:
◦It might refer to the temple itself

3.The temple was destroyed near the end of the siege, long after leaving was possible
◦It is more likely the area outside the gates of the city of mount Zion: Ps 24:3

4.The Roman armies were the abomination which causes abomination when they surrounded the city, Christians where given opportunity to leave.

5.Jesus makes reference to the "abomination" prophecy of Daniel: Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:7-13
◦Dan 12:9-11 indicates that the meaning of the prophecy was sealed
◦Mt & Mk insert "(let reader understand)" indicating the meaning was revealed by Jesus
◦Daniel was told the prophecy was sealed until "end time", which therefore was 70AD

B. Historical Fulfillment Possibilities of Daniel's prophecy (Dan 9:27)

1.Antiochus Epiphanes 167 BC
◦1 Maccabees 1:20-22, "After Antiochus had defeated Egypt in the year one hundred and forty-three (167BC), he returned and went up to Israel and to Jerusalem with a strong force. He insolently invaded the sanctuary ... and stripped off everything. V54 the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar."

◦2 Maccabees 6:1-5, "The Temple Desecrated: Not long after this, the king sent an Athenian senator to force the Jews to abandon the customs of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus, the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested. The Gentiles filled the temple with debauchery and revelry; they amused themselves with prostitutes ... even in the sacred court. They also brought into the temple things that were forbidden, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws."

◦Some maintain that Daniel's prophecy was wholly fulfilled in 167 BC.

◦But the words of Mt & Mk, "Let reader understand", indicate some connection between Daniel's prophecy and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus clearly refers the disciples to Daniel's prophecy in regard to the time to flee the city of Jerusalem.

2.Rome 70 AD
◦Josephus, "Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."
◦Some suggest that Josephus was referring to Dan 2:40-44, where the existence of Rome itself was prophesied to come into existence.

◦But the prophecy in Dan 2 says the "kingdom of iron" will shatter previous kingdoms not future. Therefore it is likely that Josephus had the abomination in mind.

◦When the Romans conquered the city of Jerusalem, and entered it, their pagan soldiers entered the temple, (defiling it according to Jewish Law), tore down Jewish ornaments and temple accoutrements, and raised in stead the pagan symbols and Roman standards.

◦Some suggest the abomination was fulfilled when Roman standards and pagan symbols were placed in the temple.

Conclusion:

1. There is absolutely no reason to view the abomination of desolation as some future event, when it was clearly fulfilled in 70 AD!

2. This may not make for exciting TV programming where we misapply current events to Bible prophecy, but it is the truth!
https://www.bible.ca/pre-mt24-abomination.htm

Hi Zone,

How about the 6th seal of R 6:12-17?

Past? Present? Future?

zone · Nov 19, 2016

abcdef said:

[Image 04. Split Series Model]

The model above roughly outlines the chronological flow of Revelation, although the flow is slightly more complicated. The following premises and graphics summarize the overall chronological framework of the book of Revelation.

https://sites.google.com/site/preteristpost/x1-revelation-and-the-jewish-war

abcdef · Nov 19, 2016

zone said:

Thanks for the link, I'm going to study this, I agree with some things.

-----

But I do not think that the 7 times are a literal 7 yr time period.

I see the 7 times as being the same as the time of the statue in Dan 2.

The first 3 1/2ts, is from the captivity in Babylon until 70 ad, the power is scattered Dan. 12:6-7.

The 2nd 3 1/2ts, is from 70 ad until the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem in 1967, completing the statue of the nations in Dan.2.

----

This 2nd 3 1/2ts, is the time described as:

The times of the gentiles,

The 2 witnesses,

The woman in he wilderness R 12.

These all run from 70 ad until 1967.

zone · Nov 19, 2016

abcdef said:

revelation has 7 parts.
each of the 7 parts has 7 parts of its own.

the 7 main parts are 7 different views/foci of the same story we already read about, esp in the gospels (and acts).

so, roughly, you have one view, then it moves to another view, and another (marked by the sounds and visions by the use of the Polysyndeton AND - and I heard; and I saw) - EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE SAME STORY we already know, they overlap.....7 times.

there's no reason to have today's nation state of Israel mean anything more than Canada does.
God judged Israel already according to law and now He calls them by Grace only - just like everyone else.
there are NO unfulfilled promises for jews that are different than they are for us.

zone · Nov 19, 2016

the device the Polysyndeton AND - (and I heard; and I saw) does not denote AND THEN (an indicator of time elapsed), unless it actually says AND THEN I

AND simply inserts into an unending string of texts (no chapters or paragraph breaks in originals), a NEW THOUGHT or action. it can be a thought or action which does OR DOES NOT fall into a sequential time period. it's a STORY telling device.

like if I say:

I walked in the forest AND I SAW birds and trees, AND I HEARD A VOICE......

I am not necessarily trying to tell you what came first, just that I heard and I saw.

wanderer6059 · Nov 19, 2016

Ariel82 said:

ofcourse i let the spirit of truth teach me, but why i'm still here to see what everyone things is right, put it on a shelf and let the spirit show me what is truth and what is the lie

wanderer6059 · Nov 19, 2016

and zone, serious question, what do you think of modern Israels six day war and the event surrounding its independence?

abcdef · Nov 19, 2016

zone said:

Zone,

You seem to agree with what I believe about the passage in Lk 21:20-24, that it occurred in 70 ad.

What would be your understanding of the Times of the Gentiles (ToG's)?

---

When I look at this passage, it seems to me that it would refer to the time that it would take until Israel is restored to Jerusalem, (trampled/under foot, R 11:2)

If this were true, then it would show that Jesus isn't quite through with Israel and Jerusalem.

That there is a prophetical restoration of Israel to Jerusalem.

zone · Nov 19, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

I think it was a war (fought by deceit and cruelty).
it means nothing more than what goes down in Iraq today - saddam Hussein was not the Antichrist (LOL)

the Israelis are not independent. without American aid they would be lost.
they hold onto power through pure brute force and deception.

Ahwatukee · Nov 19, 2016

abcdef said:

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is going to fulfill His wrath leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, are yet future and will take place in the exact chronological order that they are listed in Revelation. First the seals will be opened, which will lead into the trumpets, with the bowl judgments completing God's wrath.

None of those events of wrath have taken place, but are reserved for that last seven years, which will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist, when he establishes his seven year covenant with Israel. This will take place when the restrainer is removed, allowing the full force of sin and that man of sin to be revealed.

These plagues of wrath are not meant to casually pass by in the background of history, but will demand the attention of everyone on the planet. For those who believe that the wrath of God has already taken place, they do not understand the severity and magnitude of that coming wrath. By the time Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled.

This is the meaning behind Nebuchadnezzar's statue and that ten-toed kingdom that the Rock/Jesus falls on, smashing the entire statue to pieces and blown away by the wind, without leaving a trace (end of human government). But the rock that strikes the statue becomes a huge mountain and will fill the whole earth, which refers to Christ's millennial kingdom.

In order to interpret the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as already have taken place, you would have to symbolize them in order to get rid of the literal meaning, which is the proper way for them to be interpreted. Furthermore, we have no fulfillment of the two witnesses and all of the plagues that scripture says that they bring upon the earth, nor has the woman/Israel fled out into the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years where she is cared for by God.

zone · Nov 19, 2016

abcdef said:

Luke 21
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

simple.
bad stuff will happen until the times for those bad things (by the hands of the gentiles) is over.
it was finally over after this:

Bar Kokhba revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

zone · Nov 19, 2016

abcdef said:

maybe there is - but you won't find it in scripture.
ONLY eternity passages with NEW jerusalem

abcdef · Nov 19, 2016

zone said:

The ToG's is related to Jerusalem in 70 ad.

Jerusalem is "under the foot", the dominion of the gentile nations for a certain amount of time.

A time with a beginning, and a time with end end.

---

But when did the dominion of the gentile nations over Jerusalem end?

1967?

-----

You believe that modern Israel is not involved in prophecy?

How can any nation exist without the blessing of God?

Don't they practice the "Law", ( in variations)?

Don't they worship the God (Jesus) of Mt Sinai?

Doesn't it say in Rom 11:25, ".....; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

what has been fulfilled?

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