The King James Only Debate

[trofimus]

Ok, then do we have a Bible that every fact contained within is true and without error?

If by a Bible you mean a specific man-made edition printed and used and by fact you mean even things like "was the word 'Lord' there in the originals or not?", then no.

But our knowledge is getting better and better, manuscripts are now about 6000 (in the time of KJV it was 10) so our text we have today is very, very, very, very close to the originals.

There is no place in the Greek New Testament that is vital for any Christian doctrine and still unsure.

 

[Dan_473]

Are you saying that without the word of God, the Holy Spirit would teach you all the doctrines that are found in the word of God? You wouldn't even know that verse, John 16:13, without the word of God.

I'm confident that if I, as a Christian, lived in a land that didn't have the Bible translated into my language, that the Spirit would teach me what I needed to know to be conformed to the image of His Son.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+8&version=NASB


It would probably include the idea behind that verse, probably not those exact words.

But certainly, I think reading the Bible is helpful, reading several versions is helpful, consulting commentaries is helpful...

 

[notuptome]

I believe the KJV is inspied because I have never found it to be wrong, words are written in such a way as the number of words used reflect the number meaning of the passage. Words like Easter are used to denote a distinct difference in that occurrence pascha. The list goes on and on.

There's no way the KJV translators could purposely make that happen and maintain the message. Either Satan or God inspired them because man is not able to do what has been done in the KJV without spirit influence.

You don't need any bible to be saved other than I'm a sinner and Jesus paid for my sins.

The KJV is a rock of offence, people are going to be broken by it as I was or they're going to stumble over it. I stumbled over it for many years but it eventually broke me.

You have an incorrect understanding of inspiration.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Were saved men used of God to translate Gods inspired word? Yes no doubt. God also used some unsaved men to preserve His word so we could have it today.

Try looking at this subject as God not the KJV is the active ingredient and you will catch a glimpse of how inane your position has become.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

I believe the KJV is inspied because I have never found it to be wrong, words are written in such a way as the number of words used reflect the number meaning of the passage. Words like Easter are used to denote a distinct difference in that occurrence pascha. The list goes on and on.

There's no way the KJV translators could purposely make that happen and maintain the message. Either Satan or God inspired them because man is not able to do what has been done in the KJV without spirit influence.

You don't need any bible to be saved other than I'm a sinner and Jesus paid for my sins.

The KJV is a rock of offence, people are going to be broken by it as I was or they're going to stumble over it. I stumbled over it for many years but it eventually broke me.

I mean this as gently as possible, but you have a heavy dose of confirmation bias going on there.

Interestingly, Mormons say the same kinds of things about Joseph Smith and the BOM, Moslems about Mohammed...

 

[Dan_473]

By your definition, the word of God has or has no errors? It can be trusted? What can be trusted? Where is it?

89
Forever, O Lord,
Your word [ao]is settled in heaven.

96
I have seen [ar]a limit to all perfection;
Your commandment is exceedingly broad.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+119&version=NASB

 

[Dino246]

Isn't it funny how many Christians will argue to the end that we do not have the word of God...that what we have cannot be 100% trusted...only the originals can be trusted...and they will defend that position till the end. Why? I believe that they do not want to give up final authority on what God has said. With many versions along with the Greek lexicons, they will determine what God has said. Why give up authority to a book?

John, you are accusing others of holding a position which they do not claim for themselves. That is dishonest. The truth is that YOU assert that others believe these things, because their views are different from yours. In reality, YOU believe that the KJV is the perfect word of God and can be trusted 100%. YOU believe that the original languages cannot be trusted. YOU believe these things and are willing to defend them to the end. Don't dump on others the antithesis of your beliefs just because others don't accept them at face value. YOU have given up the authority of God to a book, and to a group of translators in the 17th century. Don't claim they were inspired, for that will only confirm my statement.

You, John146, keep asking where the perfect word of God is (if it's not the KJV). The problem, as I see it, is that your faith is extremely fragile because it is misplaced (to some extent). Your faith is apparently in the "perfect preserved word of God" (in your understanding of those terms) being available and in hand... in the "word of God" (for you, the KJV), not in the Word, God Himself.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, I would consider various readings. But if the reading will be only in KJV or NKJV, it was probably added later and was not in the originals.

If I would have other verses saying the same, no problem. If I would not have any other verses saying the same, I would consider it, but I would not build any big theology construction on it.

If the verse would be really vital for some reason, I would do some study on why it is not in the better editions, what are fors and cons.

same process I'd use... and if someone wants to get really hard-core, they can consult the Nestle-Aland with critical apparatus... now online. This will tell you in which manuscripts variant readings are found.

example
New Testament Transcripts

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm confident that if I, as a Christian, lived in a land that didn't have the Bible translated into my language, that the Spirit would teach me what I needed to know to be conformed to the image of His Son.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+8&version=NASB


It would probably include the idea behind that verse, probably not those exact words.

But certainly, I think reading the Bible is helpful, reading several versions is helpful, consulting commentaries is helpful...

I really like what you have said here. After all, isn't the fact of being born from above makes this a living way? A relationship with God which is a conversation...a two way street if you will...with God? And even more than that as we grow in Him?

To be one.

 

[stonesoffire]

But, I am very thankful for the KJV as Ive said before. I do believe that King James was inspired.

Not all likes to study languages though, and just would prefer to read. For this...the Amplified is good for me.

But, God can speak other ways than the scriptures. He speaks in pictures actually with the Hebrew language and in some cases with the greek. He also gives visions and understanding.

 

[KJV1611]

You have an incorrect understanding of inspiration.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Were saved men used of God to translate Gods inspired word? Yes no doubt. God also used some unsaved men to preserve His word so we could have it today.

Try looking at this subject as God not the KJV is the active ingredient and you will catch a glimpse of how inane your position has become.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How do you explain the number patterns found in the KJV. There are hundreds that I know of and probably thousands that I don't know about yet.

For example there are 66 decorations on the candlestick in the book of Exodus. That candlestick represents the 66 books in the written word of God.

46 is the number of chromosomes for human DNA, the serpent spoke exactly 46 words to eve in the garden in the KJV. The physical temple took 46 yars to build.

9 is the number for fruit bearing, the KJV translated pneuma 90 times as Holy Ghost and 7 times as Holy Spirit. There are 9 fruits of the Spirit.

This is just a few examples of thousands of instances, do you think this is just pure coincidence? I can't buy that, it's impossible for mortal men to create all these intricate patterns.

 

[Agricola]

God gave only one nation His word for how long was that?

That was because they were his chosen people, so we going down replacement theology now to justify your claims?

 

[trofimus]

How do you explain the number patterns found in the KJV. There are hundreds that I know of and probably thousands that I don't know about yet.

For example there are 66 decorations on the candlestick in the book of Exodus. That candlestick represents the 66 books in the written word of God.

46 is the number of chromosomes for human DNA, the serpent spoke exactly 46 words to eve in the garden in the KJV. The physical temple took 46 yars to build.

9 is the number for fruit bearing, the KJV translated pneuma 90 times as Holy Ghost and 7 times as Holy Spirit. There are 9 fruits of the Spirit.

This is just a few examples of thousands of instances, do you think this is just pure coincidence? I can't buy that, it's impossible for mortal men to create all these intricate patterns.

This is not any kind of pattern.

You just count something and then look for something what has the same number.

This can be done with every book in the world.

For example there is the word "religion" 27 times in the NIV.
The same number as 27 books of New Testament.

The word "darkness" is 13 times in the NIV.
The same as the "bad luck" number.

This is proving nothing, I hope you can see it.

 

[KJV1611]

I mean this as gently as possible, but you have a heavy dose of confirmation bias going on there.

Interestingly, Mormons say the same kinds of things about Joseph Smith and the BOM, Moslems about Mohammed...

I'm not offended.

 

[Dan_473]

Again, as gently as possible, the number pattern thing makes sense to people without a strong grasp of math... it's like an optical illusion... many people get snookered.

 

[KJV1611]

This is not any kind of pattern.

You just count something and then look for something what has the same number.

This can be done with every book in the world.

For example there is the word "religion" 27 times in the NIV.
The same number as 27 books of New Testament.

The word "darkness" is 13 times in the NIV.
The same as the "bad luck" number.

This is proving nothing, I hope you can see it.

So you think the candlestick that represents the bible has 66 decorations means nothing.... You think God just randomly chose 66 decorations to be on the candlestick? Same with the eathly temple that represents the human body took 46 years to build, you think this means nothing?

 

[trofimus]

So you think the candlestick that represents the bible has 66 decorations means nothing.... You think God just randomly chose 66 decorations to be on the candlestick? Same with the eathly temple that represents the human body took 46 years to build, you think this means nothing?

Do you even realize that the candlestick has 66 decorations in NIV too? So what?

Do you really think that the religion and 27 books means nothing?

This kind of "proving" is childish.

 

[KJV1611]

Again, as gently as possible, the number pattern thing makes sense to people without a strong grasp of math... it's like an optical illusion... many people get snookered.

The number patterns are there and tell just as much a story as the text does. The existance of the patterns can't be denied... they exist. Our view of why they are there is the only thing up for debate. I'm not snookered because I understand what the number 4 means in scripture. I'm not snookered because I know why there are only 4 gospels.

 

[masmpg]

The bible even in its meanest form is still the bible. It is the Holy Spirit of God that makes the word of God efficacious not a group of translators or linguistic scholars.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It is God not us that has the authority.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Not so. Say you were listening to a sermon and the pastor asks you to read Matthew 18:11 and all you have is the NIV, NLB, RSV, or any of the other westcott and hort translations???

It certainly is God's authority, and we are told that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth John 16:13, but the translation we read must have all the truth in it before He can guide you into it, or bring it to our remembrance, and the new "improved, updated" 2011 NIV has 17 verses completely omitted. The lie that the errant manuscripts are older than the textus receptus is just that, a lie. The dead sea scrolls validate the veracity of the KJV.

 

[KJV1611]

Do you even realize that the candlestick has 66 decorations in NIV too? So what?

Do you really think that the religion and 27 books means nothing?

This kind of "proving" is childish.

Yes I do realize that, that's why I brought it up. God uses numbers, numbers mean something in the bible.

 

[stonesoffire]

This is not any kind of pattern.

You just count something and then look for something what has the same number.

This can be done with every book in the world.

For example there is the word "religion" 27 times in the NIV.
The same number as 27 books of New Testament.

The word "darkness" is 13 times in the NIV.
The same as the "bad luck" number.

This is proving nothing, I hope you can see it.

It just proves that not all the gifts of God are given to us but separately as He wills. I see the patterns.